Can you really blame them for seeing the choice as Avid of FCP? Apple has made some great efforts to get themselves into institutions like this. They've got server products, codecs, etc that lend themselves to a large organization like NBC.

We had a similar thing come up with Google. They're doing a lot of internal work and want their contractors to standardize on FCP, presumably because they want all the contractors to be interchangeable parts, and they want all the source material. Begs the question of whether these people are really contractors, to my mind.

I think as Papa Sony starts producing more solid state cameras and works their way into organizations with that format there'll be more of an opportunity for baby SCS. That's IF Vegas grows to fit.

I'm hoping that the 64-bit version is actually seen as a separate development track targeted at these markets. If the money is there overall, a high end product that pays close attention to institutions with high production volume would be a great place to develop new features that then work down to Vegas Pro and Studio.

For those of you with a passing familiarity with the GIMP, you know that there was also a branch of it called Film-GIMP, which was developed specifically to meet the needs of computer graphics houses working in Linux environments. I'd hope to see something like this happen with Vegas.

Rob Mack

Yea, this has been one of my pet projects(no connect to Sony), promoting the complete laptop package ideal using Vegas or miniXPI for in the field, but Sony divisions are really separate beasts and do their own thing as long as they don't step outside the Sony Master plan. Apple lives to promote it software using its hardware, but today, you see Ipods and iPhones pushing the computer boys around a little. But Apple only has a limited hardware line to protect, vs. Sony, so Apple looks a lot better in its presentation. Plus Apple jumps thru the loops to "connect" with most cameras. That say, with Sony pushing Vegas with XDCAM will have some market.

Sony pushing Vegas with XDCAM will have some market

This is what I find so odd - with SONY about to release the EX-1 very soon - a very notable camera for the exact type of content Solo VJ's would be acquiring and editing under tight deadlines - you would think that an app that has native XDCAM support, audio editing within the app itself, the newly released 32bit float editing mode as well as being about as hardware neutral as an app can get, that SONY would have literally given Vegas away (much like Apple did in its early days) to get people use to working in the new way of thinking for editing, yet not one peep other than finding out that the Associated Press is going to be using laptops/Vegas in the field. In addition to Vegas being developed as a native 64bit application - well ahead of any of the competition, and looking at it on paper, Vegas would be a no brainer - yet, the PHB in broadcast (as well as rumors that Google is developing it's own broadcast channel) have settled on the MAC/FCS platform.

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

When we started adopting our PPro/Axio systems we had a ton of troubles and there was always the thought that we might have been better off with Avid or FCP. These weren't my thoughts, but they were the thoughts of the people doing the editing, each for their own reasons.

The only way to combat this "grass is greener" attitude is to actually get both systems working in the same facility, and Vegas needs to look good when you do it.

Vegas, in a situation like this, needs to do the intern tasks better than the competition. By this I mean that it needs to be able to do drudge work better than a more expensive system would do it. It needs to really be able to open anything another NLE can create, it needs useful interoperability, it needs to do batch renders, subtitling, acquisition, basically all the stuff that you could have assistants doing. Want transcription? Use Vegas. Want reviews? Use Vegas. Want to render 6 different web formats? use Vegas.

The reason Vegas needs to do the drudge work better is that, like any intern, it has to get a foot in the door, and a facility built around some other NLE is just never going to turn around and adopt Vegas without a reason.

Rob Mack

Rob - you raise some interesting points as I am a recovering Adobe Video Collection Suite user.. ;-)

Maybe it's the non-conformist in me, but when I finally "GOT" Vegas (and Soundforge, Acid Pro and Cinescore), I wondered why I even used Adobe's apps (or worked somewhat with FCS). I don't remember ever haivng any of SONY's apps crash on me - I can use all features on 64bit XP Pro - it just works. Can't say that about Adobe's apps (even FCP on a spec'd MAC)

Mike Jones made a blog entry in Sept entitled "So what is the editor's job..? Vegas 8 and production philosophy."

Having read through it, it touched where I'm at with how I see editing. A mentor/colleague of mine, David Dunkley-Gyimah, who is one of the major spearheads of the Solo Video Journalist paradigm in the UK, has a concept called "IM6" - Integrated Media 6 Ways. Vegas fits that paradigm very well and is the foundation of the specialist work I do with shooting what he terms "Immersive Video Journalism" as I'm working towards shooting ocean related pieces - both for broadcast and web distribution.

As I see it, this move by the major broadcast entities with the solo news bureaus are barking up the wrong tree with multiple app suites whereas Vegas accomplishes virtually as much in one application.

Vegas can do drudge work - herein lies it's strength, it can do a task in more than one way - and that allows for adaptation to how someone chooses to edit - the end result is the same - only accomplished in a manner that the editor chooses - and typically in fewer steps.

It would be an interesting thing to see with a small production facility based solely on SONY's Production suite. Since I'm a one man unit, it does very well for me and I don't have to worry about the typical issues I see a lot of FCP or PPro users asking questions about - they are a non-issue with Vegas.

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

News these days are mostly made up, so it's fitting they'd use FCP,an app whose "advantages" are also just a collection of completely made up marketing nonsense.

It's a perfect match.

You'd think that for solo video journalists, the #1 factor in choosing software would be ease of learning.

I can't see other than that for a person who has never used an NLE, Vegas should take max. 1/4th of the time to learn as any of the others.

It does have its limitations certainly, but for ease of use it can't be beat.

News these days are mostly made up, so it's fitting they'd use FCP,an app whose "advantages" are also just a collection of completely made up marketing nonsense.

ROFL

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

Sorry but as of now Vegas cannot natively edit footage from the EX1, you have to rewrap the footage.

Just being the devils advocate here but I really think a bit of a reality check is in order. I've gone out on a limb trying to push Vegas into the high end and to be brutally frank it's been a disaster.

Top end SD broadcast formats, Digital Betcam and Betacam SP. Sorry but these at best have sort of worked in Vegas, even when in some versions of Vegas it did work Vegas's 8 bit pipeline made it a no show for broadcasters.

HDV or any long GOP format is still useless in Vegas compared to FCP. FCP is smart, it insists you transcode to a codec that gives a smooth editing experience. Vegas can actually do a much better job but it doesn't force you to. We might see that as being better but when you look at it the way broadcast people do the spin is the problems are with the HDV format itself.

Even in the lowly realm of DV, Vegas still doesn't have a rock solid way of capturing video. Let's get real here, you think someone working in broadcast is going to find the glitches in Vidcap acceptable? Heck to capture DV from Sony far from new PDX10 I've got to use a 3rd party app.

And then there's the offline / online thing. We've almost got this right, eventually, but it's still not 100% correct. The exported EDL has random 1 frame offsets.

Then there's the most basic thing, keeping vision and audio in sync. This is beyond a joke in Vegas. Sure I know how to live with it but any broadcaster once they saw what Vegas does would fall off their perch with laughter. Even 6 years ago PPro got it right and when I jumped from that to Vegas 4 I was just gobsmacked that there was an NLE that simply didn't get something this basic right. And it really hasn't changed, Vegas still cannot lock audio to vision. Sure we've got grouping and now we've got a warning when we get it out. Compared to having to Unlock, slip, Lock and once locked it cannot and will not move it just doesn't pass muster, not in the trenches.

And as for Sony's broadcast divisions pushing Vegas, well down here Vegas is not even remotely in Sony's orbit. There's not a single Sony place or dealer that can sell Vegas. Vegas is distributed through Intelliware, a company that specialises in audio apps and hardware. The big Sony broadcast distributers can sell you Avid or FCP systems and support them. Vegas they can't, even if they wanted to.

And the final wash, when I complain about these shortcomings I'm left with the distinct taste in my mouth that Vegas is never intended to compete in the broadcast world and I don't think I'm alone.

Having said all that I'm pretty certain a few local broadcasters have been using Vegas. Judging by some of the footage I've seen on air that's mangled as only Vegas can they have to have tried it. Just try ingesting HDV and render to SD 16:9 to see what I mean. Oh hang on, you need to change a few things to get it right, pointless comment. What matters is not what you CAN do with Vegas, it's what Vegas DOES, out of the box, that matters.

Let me give you another example of how that plays out. When I got V4 I was really smug about how I could mix NTSC and PAL on a PAL timeline, wow, Avid systems couldn't do that so I was way better off and it only cost peanuts. Well here's how a broadcaster views this.
a) Editors don't have to do standard conversion. The broadcaster has Leitch or S&W boxes that do this in real time, if conversion is needed it gets done before it makes it to the editor. But hey, maybe this Vegas thing could save some time and money, let's get engineering to evaluate the footage against the Alchemist. For obvious reasons Vegas comes up short and so waht you ask. Well the broadcaster goes into a tail spin, they do not want anything floating around the place that could produce sub standard vision. So what sounds like a positive selling point against Avid becomes a big showstopper for Vegas.

Like I said at the outset, I'm playing devils advocate here and that's something that the competition will have no problem doing either.

Bob.

Bob, I've not had issues you raised with Vidcap, Audio Sync, et al. I capture from my pair of TRV950's all the time and haven't had any of those issues.

If Vegas doesn't cut it for broadcast, how is it ABC's Nightline can use it on a regular basis to cut their stories? Or have they since switched to something else for post?

I think also, that the way these new solo bureaus are going to work, they are being outfitted with Z1U's or something similar for mobility - so I don't think the comparison to Digibeta is a fair comparison given how the profession is making changes to smaller equipment.

Beings that I don't shoot HDV, I can't speak on that account. Are you saying then that Vegas mangles a down convert on the timeline??? If so, in what way? Is this where Cineform comes into play as a better alternative to Native HDV editing in Vegas Pro??

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

Farss, like you said, the front-end of Vegas capturing is a bit of a problem. And yes, the spin of HDV by FCP and the rest of the world, creates a false wall of handling media. A real media capture and management app for vegas is needed. Vegas is working better with DXCAMs but needs a real wide range of camera interfaces to be considered a candidate. Plus more CC procedures, ie with presets for specific cameras and the ability to read the meta data stream and make adjustments quickly.

SONY is to Vegas / Sound Forge / ACID, what AMF was to Harley-Davidson Motor Company, and there is no Willie G to save what was
SOFO. I have been using Vegas for years, but the project I am working on now goes to post in the fall of 2008 and will be editted in
another NLE.

Terry

WHO CARES!

There are too many anti-Apple statements to make any of the comments posted seem subjective.

Get over it. FCP's not going away. Vegas will remain for the advanced hobbyist. End of story.

Signed, DGates (A very satisfied Vegas user, but not a delusional Vegas fanboy)

Amen to that, DGates!

FCP, an app whose "advantages" are also just a collection of completely made up marketing nonsense.

I wonder what deus himself found to be so much nonsense in his own actual use of FCP?

I love Vegas and wish I could use it for everything. Basically, I think its editing paradigm is unbeatable.

Unfortunately I can't use it for everything, and then FCP comes to the rescue. What I need is always there, often halfway down an enormous list of codecs supported, or Motion or LiveType letting me do something in seconds that would be a PITA in Vegas. But the UI is clunky, so I go back to Vegas when I can.

Yes, Vegas is ideal for the advanced hobbyist for many reasons.

Still, they could increase sales immensely even to this target group if they invested more into the pro side of the product.

It may be that Sony is not the best partner for SOFO to do this. Or Sony could change its MO, which would certainly boost their profits.

Vegas will remain for the advanced hobbyist. End of story.

The upcoming release of a native 64bit version of Vegas Pro is a wannabe pro app? The first native 64 bit NLE on the market , native XDCAM support - all this for hobbyists as well?

I seriously doubt it.

In addition, this isn't about FCS (Or Adobe or Avid) going away - it revolves around HOW editing is done, not what it's done with. And it's specific to one man operations. Each suite does what it does well, but the triple A suites work in a similarly archaic modality - Vegas works outside the box - the challenge is for specific types of shooters who also edit, Vegas Pro should be a no brainer.

Probably beating a dead horse now on this topic.

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

...all this for hobbyists as well? I seriously doubt it.

That's funny Cliff. You start the thread being critical of Sony, then when others are also critical, you change your tune. So which is it? Did Sony drop the ball or did they step up to the plate? Make up your mind.

SONY dropped the ball by not promoting Vegas more aggressively as a serious alternative - you've missed the whole point of the thread.

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

No, I got your point. That's why I said who cares? Sony doesn't, so why should you?

At this time none of the NLEs can ingest EX1 data straight from the card. Vegas Pro will be able to (next upgrade), FCP will be able to in latest version with a plug-in, and so on. However none of those issues are important because they're temporary. And, surprisingly, Vegas Pro 8 was one of the 3 NLEs demonstrated at the roadshow.

Bob - thanks for the comments; they ring true and authentic. It's interesting to know how all this works, from a professional's standpoint, re broadcast integration issues. Well spoken.

Ken

Serena - What Roadshow are you referring to and what other NLE's were demonstrated???

As a follow up to DGates:

I can see where you would assume the reference to being a Vegas Fanboy - far from it. Having worked at one time or another with PPro/Audition (Mainly) and FCP/Soundtrack (a little), working in Vegas is quite efficient and liberating to say the least - for the type of work I edit. As such, my initial starting of this thread was to more or less vent the frustration I feel at things Vegas could have to make it a more complete NLE - and promoting it heavily to that market segment. - specifically for those one man shooters/editors who are under tight deadlines for getting their pieces shot and edited. Vegas provides that - mostly.

Having an ability to truly utilize an effective Deshaker type utility that integrates seamlessly with Vegas (something like Steadymove for PPro) would really complete Vegas IMO. The fact that I can export out the past projects I did in PPro as AAF's and then bring them into Vegas has saved me an enormous amount of time rebuilding projects from scratch.

The type of work that shooters like myself edit revolves around straight cuts and dissolves. Being able to edit audio on the timeline is bank. Titling now is much better in VP8. Color Correction is better IMO to PPro2 or CS3. If I can figure out using the Deshaker script so that I can find that sweet spot, I'll be content for the time being.

Cliff Etzel
bluprojekt

"specifically for those one man shooters/editors who are under tight deadlines for getting their pieces shot and edited. Vegas provides that - mostly."

I don't know what Vegas is missing actually?

For what you're talking about here, the one man VJ on the road, Vegas is probably overkill, VMS (could there be a "Vegas VJ"?) is more than enough. From the little I know about how broadcasters work the mantra is very simple. It's a business like any other, every cog in the machine is expected to do its thing and do it right. Camerapersons shoot footage that's correct, out of the camera, sound guys do the same thing. Camera guy always gets the editor enough coverage too.
Editing person cuts the story, no CC, no futzing with audio, if it's drama different story but then that's another departments job. You want CC, you send it (and pay for it) to a full on grading suite.

So now we have the VJ doing it all. He dang well should learn how to shoot for the edit, how to shoot it right, no wobblies, no WB problems, good clean audio etc. Sure, maybe you can 'fix it in post' but even if he's doing it in a motel room in the small hours of the morning it's a real time waster. Getting them to shoot it right is a better approach than teaching them how to fix it down the track. After all getting the program uploaded asap is what it's all about. The guy who gets the story up first wins, and the way he does that is by shooting it right up front.

Bob.