Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Posted by: john-foll

Date:7/24/2007 1:26:45 PM

I agree this missing feature really sucks. Its the main reason why I am using Sound Forge since version 2.0 (it was added in 3.0 I think). Because it worked better at CrossFade loops than the Antares Infinity program at CrossFade loops, although the Infinity program works better at some wierd loops for things really hard to loop. Most things are fairly easy too loop correctly using cross fade and in fact sound better. Its a good thing I still Sound Forge 6, 7 & 8 installed! But Sound Forge 9, supports VST better! I am also finding Acid irrelavent, now that Cakewalk Sonar 6 Producer Ed is out. Maybe I would still use Vegas, I don't know. The Loop Tunner Took loops that were sometime hard to spot the proper loop points using other tools, and by zooming to different resolutions, I would eventually see the exact place to loop by eye with a few seconds, and then loop it nearly perfect, sometimes no cross fade needed. But now, this is impossible. I guess someone needs to tell Sony that there are more than just Acid Loops out there! Anyone working with a sampler or Software Sample Playback synth, would need this tool back! Native Instruments Kontakt 2.x has looping and crossfade, but they suck real bad, and I always use Sound Forge to do looping. EmulatorX does some auto looping for things like Plucked strings or things that die out OK, but most long loops EmulatorX sucks for auto looping. SoundForge WAS the best, but no more! Just hold on to your old copy!

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: Buckskin

Date:7/24/2007 1:47:31 PM

That's exactly it. I am a professional sound engineer and am the head producer of all of Image-Lines samples, Samplefusion.com and Samplecell.com and have sample cd's released through Soundengine.com I have worked with some of the top musicians in the world recording and looping anything and everything there is for software samplers. And as a professional I am saying that the loop tuner window is a must.

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: _TJ

Date:7/24/2007 4:30:17 PM

I find this whole thing rather puzzling. The loop-turner method of creating loop points really only works on mono files. For stereo, SOMETIMES you can get it to work by hunting around, especially if you don't need the loop to be a specific length or to loop on the beat.

But thats rare, usually as soon as you have more than a single channel, it becomes impossible to find a loop point where both channels loop without discontinuity. Crossfade loop can handle that, but the loop-tuner just can't.

Since Sound Forge 9 is all about multi-channel, and since the loop turner doesn't really work on multichannel files, why use 9 at all if all you care about is mono?

And that even ignoring the problem there theres NO ROOM for the loop tuner if you have more than 3 channels anyway.

So what are you really saying? That you bought the new Sound Forge with all of it's new multi-channel features, but that you mostly use it to edit mono files?

Or are there a need for multi-channel files with loops that I'm unaware of? How would you even do that? Do all of the channels have the same waveform? so when you choose a good loop point in the first channel, you don't end up with discontinuity in the other channels?

Could someone please educate me here?
tj

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: pmooney

Date:7/25/2007 6:57:16 AM

Dear SonyTJ,

I think you are missing the big picture. When people buy a new version of a program they love, they do want the added functionality that the upgrade brings BUT not at the cost of losing features that they loved and were extremely useful.

Having to switch from one program to another for different audio tasks may be the thing we ultimately have to do, but why can't Sound Forge 9 accomodate older features with newer ones?

My guess is that people did not buy sound forge 9 just for the multi-channel audio capabilities, as you posit. They bought it because they want the latest and greatest version of the program they love. Sound Forge 9, because of its lack of the Loop Tuner, has missed this goal completely.

It would be foolish for Sony to ignore its customer base on this issue, especially since it has come up passionately and frequently on this forum.

And SONY can do it with an update instead of waiting for the next version. Anything can be done if they want it to be done.

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: _TJ

Date:7/25/2007 12:33:35 PM

So I don't misunderstand then? You agree that loop tuner as it existed in previous versions of Sound Forge was only useful for mono files?

Having to switch from one program to another for different audio tasks may be the thing we ultimately have to do, but why can't Sound Forge 9 accomodate older features with newer ones?
Because the older features. or in this case one particular feature. DONESN'T WORK. The loop tuner didn't scale to multi channel. It can't do the job, and it can't be fixed to do the job. The whole concept was fundamentally flawed. Also, there wasn't room for it in the window, Since when turned on, it essentially halved the height of each channel. And when your channels aren't at least a hundred pixels tall or so, you can't see the waveform well enough to use the loop tuner anyway.

If you look closely, that wasn't the only thing that took a dive in order for multichannel to be added. The tab key doesn't work the way it used to. The way the mouse decides whether you are selecting in a single channel or multiple channels is different. The rules may seem mostly the same to you, but they really aren't. We had to throw the old behaviors out and just start over. Some things simply had to change because the old way didn't scale to multiple channels properly. - and having the mono/stereo waveform having different rules and capabilities than the > 2 channel waveform is a recipe for bad code and worse user experience.

Thankfully, there weren't too many of these things. But the loop tuner was definitely one of them. And because it can't be made to work with multichannel files, the chances of it coming back in it's original form is pretty low.

On the other hand. If one or more of you can explain what it was about the loop tuner that was important to you, that usefulness can possibly be re-created in a form that does work for multichannel files.

Tell us what you did with it, help us understand which bits of it were essential, and which bits were weren't and maybe we can make an even better one.

I'm assuming that the zoomed in seeing both sides of the loop was important, What if you could only see one channel at a time? would that be good enough? Preferable? (i.e. fewer channels means more detail in the channels that you can see).

Would it be ok if ONLY mono files could use the hypothetical LoopTunerVersion2?

If not, do you match one channel and let the others pop? or do you try and find a place where both channels match? Wouldn't being able to see a spectrum of the seam be more helpful than seeing the waveform?

Is it important that it actually edit sampler loops? Or would having it work on the time selection be better/ worse? (I mean, who actually uses sampler loops anymore? Does everyone who misses the loop tuner still use a sampler? or is there some other use for it that I'm missing? I tried using it to make ACID loops once, and it's worthless for that IMHO).

Does it matter whether or not the loop length matches a time signature/or tempo?

Does it need to be able to zoom below 1:1 ? Would it be useful to be able to pencil edit and/or interoplate the edge? Most of the time? or rarely?

Are the next zero/previous zero buttons of any use? or is it all about dragging?

Help me out here. It seems to me that the loop tuner is a feature designed to solve a problem (editing loop points for external midi/scsi sampler gear) that really doesn't exist for very many users anymore.

Now that's not the reason it's gone. As I said before it's gone because it couldn't be made to work for multichannel files.

But its seems to me that market it was designed for is dead or dying, so if people are still using it, That means that it's being re-purposed to solve new problems. So. What are those problems? and how can we make a tool that addresses them directly rather than as a side effect of the old design?

tj

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: _TJ

Date:7/25/2007 2:05:52 PM

Sorry to start a conversation and run. But I'm going where there's no web access starting tomorrow and all next week plus a bit, so If you post but don't get a reply, rest assured that it's not because of lack of interest. I'll be back...

tj

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: Buckskin

Date:7/25/2007 6:01:14 PM

I don't use it for only mono files. Mostly I work in stereo. However I want to see the end and begining of the loop points right next to each other when fine tuning. In 9 the only way I can (kind of) do this is to use the go to cursor start and end and keep the loop area selected, or use the sustain start and end. But that still does not just show you where the loop points meet.

In 8 I have it all set up. After selecting a loop area I hit L and it brings up the loop dialogue. I enter the info I need in there and hit enter. Then I can use ctrl+L and open the loop tuner window. Now I can quickly and efficiently move the loop points a couple of samples and save. Easy. Now I have to keep bouncing from one side to the other using the start and end and clicking and dragging the loop points. It increases my time of work by at least double.

Now, do you have an easier way of working with loops in V.9? If so then please let me know because it is very frustrating to do it the way I describe above. And I would like to use V.9 instead of 8 if at all possible.

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: kbruff

Date:7/26/2007 5:14:05 AM

as I mention many times -- one needs to have sound forge x and Wavelab on the same machine if they wish to maximize productivity.
Wavelab performs loop tuning superbly...

Hey Buckskin -- kbruff from FLStudio. EDISON IS ALSO an awesome editor for tweaking loops.

-
Kevin
***

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:7/26/2007 7:33:51 AM

Are you actually using the sample loop information and loading the files into a dedicated sampler, or are you just using it to fine-tune a loop and render it to a new file?

That is, we know what it does. What TJ was asking is, what are you using it for? What's your target?

J.

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: Buckskin

Date:7/26/2007 2:29:55 PM

I am using it to make loop points in multi-samples for use in vst samplers. DirectWave for example.

Subject:RE: What happened to the Loop Tuner window???

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:7/30/2007 12:55:42 PM

I wouldn't mind being able to just see the endpoints of a loop in an "ending/beginning" fashion so I can see how disparate they are and fix them.

Mind you, this is only for mono and stereo only, so if I could only see one channel at a time, that's just fine by me. I also don't work with multichannel audio (other than stereo), so...

I never change the length of a particular sample, preferring to either draw of fade its endpoints so it stays locked to a particular tempo.

I never had any problems creating an ACIDized Loop in Sound Forge. What users have to remember is that time is related to tempo. Change the length of a sample and you adversely affect the tempo. If one thinks an 8-beat sample spanning 6 seconds is going to sound just as one hears it in Sound Forge in a tempo of 120 BPM (especially in ACID), think again.

(Realistically, one is creating an 80 BPM tempo Loop, which means that if one imports this sucker into a 120 BPM ACID project, it's going to speed up the Loop to match the current project tempo.)

Iacobus