VMS: Not as good as it should be

Eugenia wrote on 6/25/2007, 12:55 PM

I purchased VMS7 Platinum a few days ago, along with a book for it. I was excited as I thought I could use it for both my personal life and my work as a tech journalist for a popular tech news site. Yesterday, we went to a mountain, shot some footage with my Canon HV20 HDV camera, and when I came back home I got busy to work with it.

Well, I am not happy with the software, for the following reasons:

1. It won’t scene-detect HDV (while it does for plain DV) rendering my workflow useless (I had to download and use HDVSplit something that I should NOT be doing).
2. The external capture utility that comes with Vegas only supports DV.
3. I placed the scenes one after the other but instead of having ZERO transitions between them, there is always a small black screen between cut scenes. It only lasts 0.3 seconds, but it's visible, and it's UGLY. The application should not have done that, it should not add a black transition when it's not asked to. That should have been the *default*.
4. The application uses a lot of RAM for no good reason when you add clips on your media bin. I am NOT talking about the timeline where an application should rightfully use more RAM, but I am talking about MBs and MBs of additional RAM usage when all you do is simply adding media files to the media placeholder (I am a software developer myself btw). Other apps can have hundrends of media on the availability bin, but they won't use more RAM just because of that. It's just a bloody file listing with some thumbnails!
5. HDV video preview is SHAMEFULLY slow. Before I buy Vegas I tried ALL well known consumer HDV NLEs (Pinnacle, Premiere LE, Ulead, iMovie) and Vegas is the ONLY NLE that will have such terrible previewing performance, even at it's lowest quality setting. I am on a fast-enough machine btw and besides, even if I wasn't, the point is that the other NLEs manage it just fine and Vegas doesn't.
6. Exporting dialogs are badly designed. If you want to see dialogs that make sense, look no further than Quicktime pro. Also, where is my Quicktime h.264 and mp4-sp options?
7. Where is the "fix shaky camera" plugin, a must-have for all consumers who usually don't use tripods? I can understand things like "we don't support 24p or 24f timelines because it's a feature reserved for pros", but not providing a fix about the most common problem that plagues consumers is a bit weak.
8. Why Vegas 7 had five updates so far and VMS only had one? I know that the HDV scene split was fixed on Vegas 7e for example, but no one bothered to update VMS? Why? Because we didn't pay $500 for Vegas? The support of VMS leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

I surely hope that VMS 8 is better, but I really won't expect much at this point. The user interface of Vegas is incoherent and the functionality crippled. I don't need all the features of Vegas 7, but for VMS, I need the ones that it's got to work WELL.

Comments

OhMyGosh wrote on 6/25/2007, 10:36 PM

Hi Eugenia,
I'm not sure if this is the right forum for you to bag on Vegas. I believe it is the right place to ask questions of other members when you are unable to figure things out through manuals and experimentation. There are some very smart people here who have devoted untold hours to this, and other programs, who are very willing to share all that they know with you and all others. Learning a new program is never easy, but it can be done, and much easier and faster with the help of these members. I hope that you will approach this program and forum with an open mind. Good luck. Cin

Eugenia wrote on 6/25/2007, 11:49 PM

Usually, on other company forums, engineers and managers are reading their forums. This is my way of giving feedback to them. I don't think I have another way of doing so and I believe that these problems are so important (exactly because most are basic needs that don't work well), that hopefully I could reach them by doing so. If I just call support, all I would be able to get (in the best case), is a refund. But I am not interested in a refund. I am interested in a fix.

I still believe that VMS has the best feature-set than ANY other consumer NLE in the sub-$150 price range. But if it's plagued by such obvious bugs and bad software architecture/design, it makes it pretty useless for a lot of people, not just myself. I mean, come on, no scene-detect for HDV?!? Unusable playback? Transitions when you asked for none? Unwarrant RAM usage for adding media files to your placeholder? This means that if you are editing in HD anything more than a 5min music video clip, you will run out of RAM sooner or later even if you have 2 GB of RAM! Come on, let's be realistic here about software quality!

As I said, i am interested in a fix, not for a refund or a fight. I just hope that the Sony engineers who WORK on the project read this.

OhMyGosh wrote on 6/26/2007, 8:51 AM

Hi Eugenia,
I haven't worked with HD yet, only SD, so I can't personally give you any tips, or tricks on how to overcome some of these issues. (HD editting is realatively new, and it's the pioneers that always seem to get the arrows :) ) I can tell you that I have seen many posts on this forum that address many of the very issues you describe. Perhaps if you use the search feature of this board, along with phrasing some of your frustration as questions, you might be surprised what you can learn and do. Take care. Cin

TravelJunkie wrote on 6/27/2007, 12:32 AM

Much as I love VMS, I have to agree that handling HDV is not among its greatest attributes!

Although I don't have a problem with in built-in "capture", editing raw HDV (.MTS files) is impossible on my modest hardware (Pentium 4 / 3GHz / 1Gb RAM). The only way to get things usable is to render the .MTS files to .AVI using the (supplied) Cineform Intermediate Codec. Once this is acheived, the editing process runs very smoothly - with full framerate preview. (Competing products, like Ulead Video Studio and iMovie also use intermediate codecs to improve editing performance - but they do the re-rendering as part of the capture process - which is much more user friendly).

Given the necessity to re-render the capture files, the lack of scene-detect is hardly a problem. I find it less time-consuming to re-render one large capture file and then trim scenes manually on the timeline, rather than re-render hundreds of individual scenes before starting to edit. Best solution is probably to buy Cineform HD Connect, which captures HDV and converts directly to Cineform Intermediate, complete with scene detection (but this costs $200 !!)

There is also an answer for shaky footage - using VirtualDub and a plugin called "Deshaker". This is tricky to use - but it's free, and can produce outstanding results. Do a search in the "big vegas" forum for lots about this one.

Eugenia wrote on 6/28/2007, 12:56 PM

4eyes, your reply made the software look EVEN worse in my eyes, not better.

What you are telling me is, that I CAN NOT use this piece of software out of the box with my HDV camera, not even when I try to find a workaround by using HDVSplit. Essentially, that's what you are telling me. I am not going to buy extra software to FIX other things, neither I am going to buy Cineform NeoHDV (which I HAVE tried the demo and it FREEZES here every 2nd capture -- I have filed bug reports with them btw). Besides, Cineform costs $250, and when it outputs .m2t it does NOT split the scenes (it only does for .avi and .mov). This price is not acceptable for a consumer when you consider the workflow of a $130 NLE like VMS is.

More over, in order to use a "proxy" video, I would need to re-encode my tape. This can easily take 24 hours. Not acceptable.

In other words, I am to either wait for version 8, or get a refund. This is absolutely ridiculous, because as I said, most of the capturing problems have BEEN FIXED in the Vegas 7e, it's the VMS app that has the problems still. This shows me that Sony does not care about VMS at all. And this alone is disgusting.

Ideally, I would like to get a free v8 upgrade. I mean, this would be good customer support. I bought a program that it ADVERTISES HDV support, and yet, it doesn't work as expected, neither they ever released a fix.

Can you please point me to the software that searches for black frames? I am interested in it only if it's FREE and if it does NOT re-encode the whole file (I am not going to wait 48 hours to re-encode a whole tape of my dog playing with a ball).

stevec5375 wrote on 6/28/2007, 4:11 PM

Have you ever used Pinnacle Studio? If not, you owe it to yourself to purchase a copy and edit your heart out. (snicker, snicker)

TravelJunkie wrote on 6/29/2007, 1:59 AM

Eugenia;

given that,

"...Before I buy Vegas I tried ALL well known consumer HDV NLEs (Pinnacle, Premiere LE, Ulead, iMovie) and Vegas is the ONLY NLE that will have such terrible previewing performance..."

WHY did you buy Vegas??

4eyes wrote on 6/29/2007, 6:26 AM

Eugenia,
The cineformhd codec is supplied with VMS7_Platinum. Listed as a codec under the avi section when exporting video. It's supplied with VMS7_Plat when you install the software.

I edited my previous above post.
All I can say is I'm very satisfied with VMS7_Platinum do reccommend the software to other persons.

I have many hours of StandardDefintion Video create, edited & rendered by VMS7_Plat.
I have many hours of HighDefinition Video created, edited & rendered by VMS7_Plat. These videos playback on the computer & HD players on my HDTV's without any problems. They look great, they have custom music background audio tracks added to the HDV videos, text overlays, and still retain the original vocal audio tracks.

I don't have any compliants, not that anyone would listen anyway :)

Eugenia wrote on 6/29/2007, 12:44 PM

>WHY did you buy Vegas??

Because Premiere LE was failing to start after 3 successful loadings before it. Apparently it's a known bug, when you update your XP via Microsoft's update. Uninstalling and re-installing does not fix the bug, you are out for an OS re-installation if you want Premiere back.

Pinnacle was utterly buggy, Ulead was very basic, and iMovie was very basic too (although it has the BEST usability out of any such app).

>The cineformhd codec is supplied with VMS7_Platinum.

Yes, but that's just the codec, not the CAPTURE application from CineForm (I would need NeoHDV bundled, not just the codec). So, my problem is not the codec, it's the capturing HDV dis-ability of VMS. VMS does not detect scenes when it captures to m2t, and apparently HDVSplit adds black frames that ruin my transitions. This is utterly unacceptable. Sony should have released an update to support scene detection. And the HDV m2t playback is embarassingly SLOW.

Chienworks wrote on 6/29/2007, 3:19 PM

If HDVSplit is adding black frames then that's not the fault of Vegas. Besides, Vegas is an editor so edit those frames out just as you would edit out the heads and tails of any scene imported from the camera. Or are you claiming that you cut your scenes perfectly in the camera and need no editing?

I've got a 1.8GHz non-hyperthreaded CPU in my laptop and it plays back 1920x1080 HD m2t files at nearly full frame rate. I'll admit i don't have any HDV files lying around to try, but HDV is only 1440x1080 so i would think if it can handle 1920x1080 then HDV should be less effort. Of course, as soon as i add a fade or transition or title or effect, then the playback rate slows down some.

Eugenia wrote on 6/29/2007, 3:36 PM

>If HDVSplit is adding black frames then that's not the fault of Vegas.

That's correct, but the problem is that VMS does NOT split scenes. WE HAVE to use HDVSplit (short of buying NeoHDV for $250 -- which has its own bugs btw). Don't you understand of the problem??? You see, if I was just arguing that VMS does not split scenes, people here would tell me "just bloody use HDVSplit and shut up". NOW, that I HAVE used HDVSplit you ARE STILL TELLING ME "that's not VEGAS problem"?? Who's fault is it then???? I can't do my job. It's added work for NO GOOD REASON. I TRIED of the workarounds of HDVSplit to go AROUND VMS' own problems, and the workarounds don't work either as expected. It is a BAD situation. Why can't you just admit that? Why do you have to pay homage to Sony??? I paid for this software, and it was advertised to me as HDV-ready. But it's NOT as far as I am concerned.

>Or are you claiming that you cut your scenes perfectly in the camera and need no editing?

For family stuff I don't edit, no. I just drag n drop to the timeline. The black frames really ruin it, and they add to my workload.

>I've got a 1.8GHz non-hyperthreaded CPU in my laptop and it plays back 1920x1080 HD m2t files at nearly full frame rate.

I have a 3 Ghz one and it doesn't. Remember, I am talking about the PREVIEW playback of VMS, not trying to play HD clips with any other app. I don't have a problem with other apps, only with VMS' preview. Apparently the problem is KNOWN and have been discussed in many other occasions online. It IS a real problem for many-many users. As I said, I would not argue about it if the other NLEs had the same problem (which would mean that my CPU is too slow), but it's not the case. *ONLY* VMS is as slow in previewing HDV.

stevec5375 wrote on 6/29/2007, 3:40 PM

I have the following config:

ASUS A8N-32SLI motherboard
2 GB corsair RAM
Nvidia GT 7600 vidoe card with 256MB
2) 320 GB Seagate SATA II drives in a RAID 1 array
and more

VMS will not play back long video files in the preview window without lagging behind or stuttering. There is definately something going on with this.

4eyes wrote on 6/30/2007, 7:14 PM

I just ordered VMS 8 Platinum.
If you have just recently purchased version 7 then I would contact the tech support service department to see about getting version 8.

I'll post back after installing version 8 whether previewing is better.

OhMyGosh wrote on 6/30/2007, 10:50 PM

Please let us know 4eyes about what you think of VMS 8. Especially about how it handles HD. I want to update, but with all the confussion and problems I have read about, I am worried. Good luck and thanks. Cin

4eyes wrote on 7/2/2007, 8:39 PM

Please let us know 4eyes about what you think of VMS 8. Especially about how it handles HD.
Handles HDV twice as fast on same machine that runs VMS7.
Split by scenes = Yes.
Smooth Capture Preview = Yes
Smooth Timeline Editing Preview = Yes
AutoDetects HDV Cam Better then VMS_7 = Yes

Building video thumbnails & audio track preview is much faster.
BTW my computer isn't that fast, only a 2.8 - (3.2Ghz OC'ed) HT, below what should be used for HD editing. But the video card and playback software is HD Certified. Works for me.
VMS_8_Platinum = Nice for my video editing needs so far.

If Eugenia use Version_8_Plat she can still use the book for version 7.

Eugenia wrote on 7/2/2007, 11:21 PM

I just tried the 8.0a trial.

I didn't try capturing, but I believe that it now, at last, works. It's about time.

However, the Preview playback is STILL bad. There are times that the playback is kinda smooth, but most of the time is not. Especially if you are previewing the timeline rather than one of your media clips, it is really slow, playing back about 3 frames per second and sometimes is stopped altogether with only the audio playing back, crackling! Even using Draft doesn't make much change here.

Given that this works for some, but not for others (all with similar CPU speed), I am inclined to believe that this is actually a bug happening on some PCs rather than bad optimization. I don't know what to think anymore.

mixxer wrote on 7/3/2007, 4:52 AM

Just to add to the "Knowledge Base"...

I've upgraded from VMS6 to VMS8. HDV preview was terrible in 6 forcing me to render HDV-DV for editing and then swap back again, it's now perfect in 8 allowing real-time editing as with DV. Also internal capture utility now auto-detects HDV scenes.
I'm trialling Cinescore at the moment and VMS 8 works with it as a plug-in whereas VMS6 would not.

OhMyGosh wrote on 7/3/2007, 9:43 PM

Thank you 4eyes for the assessment of VMS 8. I'm glad to finaly hear something good. I have wanted to upgrade for some time, but just not sure which way to go. Thanks again for sharing :) Cin

Eugenia wrote on 7/4/2007, 9:51 PM

After changing the swap file size on the VMS Settings (dynamic RAM) from 255 to 400 MBs, now HDV previews properly.

JSR wrote on 7/5/2007, 5:45 AM

Eugenia,

I remember you from the glorious days of the BeOS, and think that your high computer expertise justifies you complaints. After several years using VMS and Vegas I'm still trying to figure out how the various settings affect the whole thing!

Sure I am that at the end you'll find the use of VMS as much fun as it was the BeOS ;)

Cheers,

jsr

ritsmer wrote on 7/5/2007, 8:42 AM

Said here about VMSP: But if it's plagued by such obvious bugs and bad software architecture/design, it makes it pretty useless for a lot of people, not just myself. I mean, come on, no scene-detect for HDV?!? Unusable playback? Transitions when you asked for none? Unwarrant RAM usage for adding media files to your placeholder? This means that if you are editing in HD anything more than a 5min music video clip, you will run out of RAM sooner or later even if you have 2 GB of RAM! Come on, let's be realistic here about software quality!
And (from the same person): But the Sony Vegas Movie Studio 7a Platinum SUCKS.

This forum used to be a place where Vegas Movie Studio users talked about video editing and kindly and openly helped each other with good ideas as how to make different things and effects.

Some times ago this changed.

One of the first occations was when a long time member here really was flamed with words, that I can not repeat here (as far as I remember even the "c" word), because he tried to help. Luckily this post was deleted after short time.

Later there have been an increasing number of such incidents - i.e. like shown above - where people use this forum as a channel to unload their frustrations of their lives on all readers in this forum.
It is quite a wrong address - what we want to do here is actually just to make some good videos and to help anybody looking for help.
What I (and maybe we?) do not want, that is to waste time reading that X or Y rather would buy some other editing program. Also this is silly: why do theese people not just buy the so much desired other product and leave us in peace?? Could we care less??

It is disturbing that we have to read all this whining and therefore - in case that you have not found it yourself - if the you click on the name of such a person - there is a possibility to click "ignore all posts by XXX".

:-))
Einar Ritsmer
Copenhagen
Denmark

PS: To all that think this is an invitation to give their lives some content: I have no further comments on this at all ::--))

Eugenia wrote on 7/5/2007, 10:58 AM

Sorry Einar, but this application has problems. All I did was to name them and request a solution.

For example, the new VMS8, while it fixes most of my grudges, it introduces two new bugs. Let's see this time, is SONY interested in enough to update the software, or leave it as is as they did with VMS7 and never release an update it for it (while they DID release 5 updates for Vegas Pro).

Eugenia wrote on 7/5/2007, 1:49 PM

I ordered VMS8-Plat. Arrives next week.

Thanks for the sweet note JSR. :)

Himanshu wrote on 7/6/2007, 6:27 PM

The black frames are NOT transitions. They are errors from capturing with HDVSplit. They are incomplete GOP's captured or processed by HDVSplit. <...deleted...> I have software that you load the videos (.m2t) files and it searches for black frames.

4eyes:

Can you tell me which version of HDVSplit has this bug?
Would you also share the name of the software you use to search for the black frames, and presumably fix the issue?

I'm about to start capturing a bunch of HDV tapes (taken with the HC3) with HDVSplit, but another option is VLC, if there is this flaw with HDVSplit.

Thanks.

--
Himanshu