Subject:SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Posted by: Phil_A

Date:6/26/2007 6:21:24 AM

Just installed SF9 (had been running 7)

I have many plugins that gather essential info on the soundfile during preview. Many years ago i would let them gather info while previewing the soundfile in real time and as you can imagine, this was extremely time consuming. Then I discovered that by unchecking "REALTIME," and running a preview, the plugin would gather the info much more quickly while SF rendered the preview and i did not have to wait during a realtime playback.

Now that I've installed SF9, the plugins no longer gather info during a non-realtime render, instead waiting for realtime playback to gather info. Needless to say, this is a giant leap backwards for me. Did I miss a preference item? Does anyone know how I can restore this functionality? Do I need to go back to an older version?

Anyone with an answer will have my everlasting gratitude!!!

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:6/26/2007 12:55:29 PM

Your plug-ins are still getting hit during the non-realtime calculation, but on a different instance than the one displayed in the dialog (and on a different thread).

I'm guessing you are reliant on the plug-in's user interface for some type of configuration that is not propagated as part of the current preset, or perhaps results are piped directly to the plug-in UI during processing.

If you make sure all the necessary information gets persisted as part of the current preset (IPersistStream for DirectX), or provide an alternate outlet for the processing code (say, a text file) this trick will work again. And if this is the case, you don't even need to Preview, just OK and it will likely be even faster.

I'm a little curious as to what these specialized plug-ins are doing. Did you author them yourself and/or are they publicly available? If they aren't particularly complicated, you might be better off re-creating them as scripts.

J.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Phil_A

Date:6/26/2007 2:49:43 PM

These are off-the-shelf, name-brand plugins. For example, when a plugin processes a file, the result will often create peaks over 0dB and therefore be clipped... During preview, a plugin will calculate the result and suggest how far to reduce the output to avoid clipping.

I'll give you a couple of examples from the WAVES plugin collection:

X-HUM: as stated above, X-HUM, during preview, will calculate the required reduction in output to avoid clipping.

LinMB (Linear Multiband Compressor): During preview, LinMB will display the peak levels of each of the 5-bands, aiding in the setup of the process. It will also calculate the overall peak to reduce output (as above).

I hope this clarifies.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Phil_A

Date:6/28/2007 11:21:21 PM

OK... Well... Clearly I'm the only one with this problem...

...so I went with the only practical solution...

I am once again running SF7. Unfortunately, I won't be able to consider future SF upgrades, until this funtionality has been restored to the product.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:6/29/2007 1:15:25 AM

I can't find any such 'auto-learn' or 'auto-gain-compensate" function in my X-Hum or LinMB (V5), or any mention of it in the manual. Have I been missing something for the last year or so ?

I just tweak things in pre-view and when set, then process....

geoff

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Phil_A

Date:6/29/2007 5:06:22 AM

Geoff

there are no special functions... next time you use those plugins, run a preview (MUST BE REALTIME IN SF9) and watch the numbers in the little boxes under some of the faders. You will see those numbers update as the preview runs.

These are just 2 examples... I have tons of plugins that do this. There is lots of valuable info there... and the most important is where the peak levels land after processing, because anything over 0dB will clip. After completely previewing a file and seeing that the peaks hit +3.2 dB, you would need to reduce the output gain by at least 3.2 dB (in this case, I would reduce by 3.5 to leave a little headroom). AND BEING ABLE TO GET THOSE NUMBERS IN A FRACTION OF REALTIME IS INVALUABLE!!!

Now... many plugins have a lot of other detailed info during a preview and LinMB is one of them... And I believe the manual actually has suggestions as to how one might make use of these numbers. When you run a preview (MUST BE REALTIME IN SF9), watch the numbers under the faders for each band. If that info isn't in the manual (and I'm pretty sure that's where I found it), then I found that info either at the Waves site or on a Waves forum.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/3/2007 12:54:33 AM

Ahaaa, now I gotcha (I think).

The problem is not so much that plugs cannot learn in anything other than realtime preview, it's more that in SF9 you cannot preview at any speed other that real-time (setting with the latching tittie on scrub control) !

Is that actually a bug rather that a design feature ?

geoff

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: timo75

Date:7/3/2007 4:15:32 AM

I think this is a rather elementary function. After an offline render, it is more than important to have the 'control lamps' in the same state as if it was an online render. I think there are many people out there doing e.g. journalistic voice treatments with SF. They don't want to hear the whole track in realtime, but apply some compression/limiting/EQing to it. It is absolutly necessary the see after rendering, if there occured clipping anywhere.

What a stupid change. Again. Unbelievable. But, no, I don't want to whine again. All said.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Phil_A

Date:7/3/2007 4:27:58 AM

I confess, I don't know anything about scrub control, as it's a feature I have yet to use... and I have no idea how scrub control relates to this issue... but...

In the last couple of versions, SF6 & SF7 (I never ran 8 - so I don't know about SF8), the plugs could learn as fast as the processor would go (by unchecking REALTIME & running preview)... Now, in SF9 the plugs can only learn in realtime...

...so yes, I'd say that its a bug when functionality is inadvertantly taken away.

And this particular functionality is essential to my work-flow. I can't tell my clients that Sony changed the software and now the job is going to take twice as long and cost twice as much.

And that's why I've returned to using SF7 and will continue to do so until this issue is addressed, if ever.

I LOVE SOUNDFORGE!!! I think I've been using it since the first version.... I cannot remember life before SoundForge! But I have the realities of business to consider. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that I seem to be the only one who finds this to be a problem.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Phil_A

Date:7/3/2007 4:31:49 AM

timo75!!! I thought I was all alone! thanks for chiming in.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: timo75

Date:7/3/2007 4:08:38 PM

No,Phil, you're definitly not alone. There's an increasing community of people like you and me, that are so frustrated with the new version and must go back to an earlier version. Just look around, nearly every thread in this forum goes similar - any old feature that isn't avaliable anymore.
And for all of them, whatever they miss, it is absolutly necessery for their workflow (and also makes lots of sense to have been there).

Sony answers mostly once per thread, giving a kind of fishy workaround and then leave us alone without concrete information about how the issue will be treated at Sony (why it's there and if it will be fixed). Best example: the loop tuner window.

But don't give up! I believe it will turn to good! :-)

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/5/2007 12:31:08 AM

The little fixed speed control on the Scrub is how you can change playback (or preview) speed. But I realise that's not what you mean.

I had NO IDEA that you could Preview in any other than realtime ! I have found the reference in SF8 Help, and notice it is missing in SF9 Help.

However I cannot find the setting by " right-click the title bar of an effect dialogue". Could you point me to exactly where this shortcut menu appears ?!!! All I can see is Bypass, Move L, Move R, Remove, and the plugin name.

I'm looking at X-Hum 5 .

geoff

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: Phil_A

Date:7/6/2007 4:28:04 AM

Geoff
There is no "setting" by right clicking anywhere, that I am aware of. Let me point out, once again, that I don't know about SF8... I skipped from 7 to 9 and found the problem with 9.

The proceedure with X-Hum is simple... Let's say you want to remove DC offset with X-Hum:

1 - Select the portion of the file you wish to process (if you are removing DC, you'll likely want to select all - or none, which defaults to all for processing)

2 - select the X-Hum preset to "remove DC offset" - (you will see a couple of faders off to the right and they will be set to 0 (zero)... you will also see a couple of boxes under the faders that read "INF" for infinate)

3 - for a real time preview check the box (under the preview button) that says "REALTIME" - for a faster than real time preview, UNCHECK the "REALTIME" box.

4 - Press the "PREVIEW" button and let fly. You will hear the realtime preview while its playing... the non-realtime preview will be silent until the preview has been built and then you will hear the selection play.

5 - during the preview, you will see the boxes, under the faders, update with numbers (except in SF9 during non-realtime preview - I DONT KNOW ABOUT SF8).

6 - The button you hit to preview is now labeled "STOP" - press the "STOP" button after the selection has completely played once in realtime OR in NON-REALTIME PREVIEW, after the preview has been built and you start to hear the selection play...

7 - In either case, note the numbers in the boxes under the faders and use the highest number value... for example if the two numbers are -2.7 & -1.3, then -1.3 is the highest value... 3.2 & 0.6, 3.2 is highest... -2.2 & 0.2, 0.2 is the highest.

8 - To avoid clipping when you process, select the higher number such as the 0.2 in the last example, and pull the output faders down by that amount to -0.2 (I would like to leave a little extra headroom, so I would pull the faders down to -0.5). IF BOTH OF THE VALUES ARE LESS THAN ZERO, such as the -2.7 & -1.3 in the first example, then you don't need to do anything, you can leave the faders at zero.

9 - Now all you need to do is hit "OK" and process the selection and you can be assured that it won't clip when you process.

Subject:RE: SF9 problem - plugins & preview

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:8/8/2007 10:37:27 AM

I didn't make this the default since I'm not completely satisfied with some stability concerns.

But in 9.0b you can restore this behavior by going to internal preferences (Ctrl+Shift while selection Options->Preferences, then select the Internal tab), and changing the value of the pref labeled "Copyless DirectX/VST nrt preview" to TRUE.

Hope that works for you. Will keep this behavior in mind when planning future versions.

J.