"DVCPRO HD files ingested through a Kona 2 card with Final Cut Pro " sorry you are having the problem but seems to me you got a lot more goin than just cant edit DVCPRO HD . I dont know if vegas can or cant edit DVCPRO HD as shot from tape , but i can see why this may have been a problem,,

Vegas is the cute girl you like to go out on a date with, because it's easy (to use!) and friendly. lol

But the one you marry, will be another NLE (Avid/FCP/PP etC)..
Vegas is slipping.... it was fun though while it lasted. Thank goodness for all the great plugins out there that gave this long-in-tooth, title-less but fun NLE a bit more life. But the writing's on the wall.

Maybe I'll be surprised by all the dozens of new significant features and world-class titler coming in Vegas 8. Oh and then I woke up.

Still a fun, fast easy to use app, I'll still use it, but likely moving on later this year.

Ken

I feel for you, I really do.

The sad thing is there might well have been an very simple solution but what authority do you turn to, sure everyone here tries to help. But who are we but a band of well meaning users who are less than 1% of the user base. And some of us even use Vegas to make a crust so anytime we spend here helping can well be time we could have used earning income. Those who might be using the very solution needed quite likely can't afford the time to help solve the problem or feel their hard work is of commercial value and therefore they'll be in no hurry to help another commercial outfit.

What is desperately needed is a very serious shakeup in the tech support area, serious users need serious tech support. At the moment some kid making a piece for Youtube gets the same level of tech support as someone trying to pull off a high profile deal worth $100Ks. This is what keeps Avid etc going, you spend serious money on any high end kit and you get support, the kind that means a guy at your door who doesn't go home until it's fixed.

Bob.

L.T.,
While it was a huge PITA for us, I recently completed a full-length work that was entirely DVCProHD from FCP, in Vegas, using the Raymaker workflow I mentioned earlier. Marcus van Bavel of DVFilmmaker worked closely with us, sometimes into the wee hours of the morning til we got it figured out.
It can be done.
Try taking those same files to Avid easily (we tried) or to Premiere easily (we tried that, too) and you'll find it's an FCP issue as much as it is anything else. Don't confuse DVCProHD from the camera with DVCProHD from the NLE, cuz it's not the same flavor.
Not suggesting fixes, because there isn't a "fix" I'm aware of, just a PITA workflow, but it's more due to FCP than it is to Vegas and DVCProHD.

I don't understand your complaint - maybe it is just voiced out of frustration. Mike J left you a very clear answer to the root of the problem on the DMN forum - starting out by ingesting into FCP. DVCPRO HD can be done in Vegas but not by starting out by ingesting into FCP first. Once FCP touches it the files are screwed up for other NLE's including Avid.

I work with an Avid Adrenaline system on a daily basis and the number of problems that arise are far greater than the number that arise out of using Vegas.

Yeah... an Avid annual support contract costs upwards of thousands of dollars per year. I can't think of too many people willing to shell out that kind of money for support on a $600 piece of software. In all the years I've been running Vegas, I have never had a reason to need tech support.

In my opinion, I don't think Vegas is to blame here. Some high-end packages tend to have a lot less format support than prosumer NLEs. With some of them, you have to get everything into a common format like HD-SDI, TIFF (and only particular variants), DPX. They won't do DV/firewire, DV50/DV100, MPEG2/HDV, AVI (other than no codec), ditto Quicktime, etc. etc.

If the material was shot on HDCAM, it's possible to edit that via HD-SDI ingest. All current systems ingest HDCAM via HD-SDI, so this is the same workflow as every other NLE on the market. The shortcoming here is format interchange/incompatibility, which would be a problem on every other NLE too.

2- Tech support:
Not all high-end systems have very quick turn-around tech support. For FCP, Apple (as far as I know) doesn't offer it; though they are supported by 3rd party companies but that's not quite the same (since they can't fix bugs).

Vegas actually needs little tech support since it's so stable to begin with and bug-free. Everything else is a lot more unstable and bug-ridden.

3- In Vegas were used professionally, you could:

A- Rent/own a HDCAM deck and ingest off the tapes via HD-SDI. Of course you need to own all the other stuff (RAID, monitor, etc.).

B- Dub the tapes to another format and edit off that. Could be an offline/online workflow, or a SD finish.

C- Use a Final Cut system. Because it really doesn't matter what tool you cut it on. If the project started out in FCP then it could be faster to edit in FCP.

D- Figure out how to work with the files they gave you. But if not, try A-C.

I think L.T. had no control over capture, it was more "there's our video data" can you work with it.

Not to sound off too much, but any format can be transcoded using programming tools, some a lot harder that others. But as Farss pointed out, hobby work is one thing and commercial work product is another. FCP problems are many, the world is not all perfect for FCP editors, but that's true for most NLEs. Big companies, like Sony, ABC,...., "may have" internal transcoders created in-house( with their own set of problems), but not for public use because of royalties issues. So sad it may be , L.T., Sony's weak response may be more of a timing issue of what they are going to do in the near future based on market demand and their ability to come-to-terms on royalties ( this is no small issue for massive corps with mutli sub-corps).

Exactly the case. The Band wasn't happy with the edit, we got an investor to pay us to edit the footage due to my convincing of Vegas being able yo use the files and it not being a huge inconvenience. The footage was already captured using a Kona Proprietary DVCPRO HD codecbut it seems that with the recent AJA support that this would have been a non issue. I tried RAYLIGHT and it wouldn't touch the files. As for the feedback on the DMN Forum, basically it said they don't play well together and make them recapture in a different codec. HDNET had already put in the ingest time seperated to specific songs and were not about to reingest. Im sure it could have been done and I tried every suggestion from every forum with no luck. Considering the large percentage of this bus using FCP Vegas would create a work around. I couldn't even get through to tech support and after a few suggestions the answeres stopped comming. I love Vegas and will never drop it or do I have any plans of picking up on a new NLE but it is a shame that the few of us who do this for a living and who are trying to push the limits into HD would have these issues. Just nocked my ladder out from under me. Big let down to say the least. I could have gone back to the HDCAM but it would have cost me plenty.

L.T.

Sure there's not going to be too many people who'd pay for that. Only the ones that really count would.

Bob.

I would have just played the FCP footage back and captured again to whatever format you needed.

Then no problems editing in Vegas and nobody would have noticed the difference anyway.

It doesn't have to be complicated.

Sounds like more of a RANT than a serious cry for HELP.

Ways to do it have been described... but apparently the were not sufficient.

Although I feel Vegas has some short comings... I don't believe the problem described is one.

You gotta remember how Apple plays the game. They are always trying to stay 'Closed' source and not willing to play well with others. This is just another example.

We use Vegas, FCP, & Premeire and have found so far the only file type that will work well with all systems is Quicktime DV/DVCPro NTSC. Any other file type or codec and at least one of the NLE's will have a problem with it. More often than not... it's FCP.

Sony does have pay for support that's ~$200 a year. But depending on the nature of the problem & how much $$ you're bringing in (or future $$ with the client) is may not be worth it.

But if FCP messed with the file then there's nothing that can really be done. It would be no different then using a DVCPro coded in Vegas that was coded to read/write in Vegas only (like Sony's DV codec). We're lucky enough to not deal with this.

I understand that the client doesn't care about such things. Hopefully they'll see they with some NLE's they're locked in to that NLE for the most part.

Is there a reason they didn't give you a DVCProHD tape to capture (I'm assuming it was a small clip)? It could also be their editor/engineer believed their system was perfect & everything else is borked. I've seen that. :D

aye...the question is, if not Vegas, then what? I've actually toyed with the idea of PPro, but, I have a long standing dislike of that piece of frustration. Nevertheless, Vegas really NEEDS 10 bit I/O. Personally, I could care less about 64 bit processing. Where did THAT particular decision come from? Another critical upgrade is an up to date, and consistent, attention to BMD driver support.

Yes,
Sony does have Pay For Support, except only in the USA!

As for capturing the HDCAM, well that's not going to be cheap. A JH3 costs around $300/day to hire and you need a FAST disk array to keep up.
That would have been my approach, capturing HDCAM to DVCPro HD is doing even more nasties to the image. HDCAM SR is the best but that takes truck loads of cash.

Bob.

Bill Ravens:
Well, about 3 billion people viewing their tv sets can't tell the difference between 10 bit and 8 bit. 10 bit is kind of like flushing the toilet twice just to make sure. Sorry about being so rude but my toilet plugged up this morning.
JJK

JJK,

You are correct that "3 billion people viewing their tv sets can't tell the difference between 10 bit and 8 bit."

But that is not what 10-bit vs. 8-bit is about.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, whether in plumbing or in video.

Try squirting several ounces of dishwashing liquid (not for machine dishwashers) into the toilet and let it sit for 20 minutes. That is often enough to clear it, and can save you a trip to go get a $7.95 snake.

Back to 10-bit video.

Two situations:

1. Shooting with a 10-bit camera gives you 2 stops more to play with in post.

2. Shooting with an 8-bit camera, but doing post in a 10-bit codec or better can save you from rounding errors that can give you vastly different-looking end results. This has been discussed ad nauseam here by me, GlennChan, and several others, and is being done every day on Hollywood productions, as well as of course on broadcast productions, where the standard for A/D conversion has always been 10-bit.

Happy flushing!

Maby this was a rant, I am super disapointed. I apreciate everyones input and opinions but nonetheless im still hosed and still ahven't heard any legitimate work arounds. They sent me the Kona proprietary DVCPRO HD files before final cut even touched them. They were the direct encoded files. HDCAM masters limited me to doing anything with reingesting. I am not ABC nor do I have the big capture card ie Black Magic, AJA. So anyway, i'll move on a little smarter. I am moving into some big areas in the future and have doubts now weather my NLE will be able to keep up. I am going stricktly HD uncompressed HDCAM. Will Vegas even work with it. Im a little disapointed in the HDV stuff and any editing whatsoever just degrades it too much to use with current HD on air programming. Would hate to start over. I had a dream once that Z1's and FX1's editied in Vegas would pass for HD on air programming.


L.T.

Vegas works great with HDCAM content. The last chapter in the Vegas Editing Workshop book goes into the entire workflow. It's very easy, and only getting easier.
As far as your HDV commentary....I'd have to argue that very hard. Z1/V1 is broadcast every single day on multiple stations around the world. As is XDCAM, as is DV, and other formats that measurbators claimed would never be broadcastable.
As mentioned, there *is* a workflow for getting various flavors of DVCProHD into Vegas, you may not have chosen to explore them, but several of us have endured it, and finished projects that originated in various flavors of DVCProHD.

Coursedesign:
I have to apologize for being obtuse. I would love to see 10 bit, a wonderful titler, auto subtitle clip creation, and "octopus" render---that is Vegas seizes anything with a processor and uses it for rendering. Also a warning menu prior to rendering saying you do not have enough memory to render this project. Maybe a menu warning your color levels are too high or autocorrection prior to rendering. The third party scripts are doing things that should already be incorporated in Vegas. And I think the mov codec and player should be included also. Maybe THX sound. Bluray & HD-DVD render to standard discs.
JJK

...and I should have said that after squirting in the dishwashing liquid, flush if that won't make it overflow, otherwise just pour in as much water as possible by bucket/pot, etc., so that the now soapy water can slowly seep around the bend and work on the same principle as when easily slipping a ring off a swollen finger.

Just for the record HDCAM is a worse format than HDV.
Sure the HDCAM cameras leave the HDV cameras in their dust but as a format HDCAM is inferior in significant ways. HDV lets you get what's on the tape into your NLE, HDCAM goes through very significant compression between the tape and your NLE and goes back the other way to get back to tape.

If you want to see what it's like dealing with uncompressed HD (which HDCAM is anything but) you can encode HDV to uncompressed with Vegas and edit the uncompressed footage with Vegas.

Bob.