Subject:One Shot Properties

Posted by: Marty Baggen

Date:9/25/2006 6:46:27 AM

With Acid 6, One-Shot recordings of mine, now have stretching characteristics as I paint onto the time line. This makes it nearly impossible to maintain sync throughout a tune, especially one with tempo changes. Timing also "adjusts" if I split the track.

This is enormously frustrating.

The takes are recorded as One-Shots and are placed as such in the timeline. This has never happened in previous Acid versions.

In previous Acid versions, I inserted my recorded track, painted it on the timeline from the beginnng, and all cues would maintain their location throughout the timeline as recorded, regardless of the length of the track as painted on the timeline and regardless of splits created within the track.

What is Acid 6 doing differently, and how to I make it handle my recorded tracks?

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:9/25/2006 9:05:56 AM

Are you sure they're One-shot recordings? You can, of course, tell what kind of media it is either by looking at the active clip on the paint clip selector button or looking at the event/clip labels (Ctrl+Shift+I (that's an "I" as in, "India")). One-shot icons are the arrows that point right. Beatmapped icons are those adapter thingies that went into 45s to make them fit on a standard LP player.

By default, ACID Pro 6 records as Beatmapped tracks. This can be changed via Options > Preferences > Audio. (Look under, "ACID type for recorded audio.")

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Marty Baggen

Date:9/25/2006 9:20:46 AM

These are One-Shot recordings.

When they are shortened or extended (by painting), or sliced... the tempo parameters of the clip are changed.

I wouldn't think even Beat-Mapped clips would behave this way... but to reiterate, these are recorded and imported into the timeline as One-Shots.

I will reinstall Acid 4 to see if the same problem exists.

What would cause a recorded clip, essentially created as an overdub, drift in timing? Is there a bug that creates a Beat-Mapped recording instead of One-Shot? Even if that were the case, they would show up as Beat-Mapped when imported into the timeline? My recordings are displayed as One-Shots.

Thanks!
Marty
OnQ Film Inc

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:9/25/2006 9:37:19 AM

Hmm...I know that I don't have a problem with One-shot recordings; even if I import them and split them they sound fine

Do the recordings sound like they are stretched, or are they simply offset at a different time than intended? (If the latter, check your latency settings via Options > Preferences > Audio Device and play with the track buffering settings.)

One-shots are the only ACIDized form of digital audio that ACID does not apply its timestretching ability to in any way. Beatmapped tracks, on the other hand, are stretched (if deviating from the original tempo they were recorded in anyway).

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Marty Baggen

Date:9/25/2006 9:52:36 AM

I suspect my troubles are because of tempo changes within the project. It just so happens, this multi-tempo'd project is my first with Acid 6.

The latency settings are a good suggestion, although this problem has cropped up with multiple takes from other player's systems with Acid 6.

The pitch does not seem to change as the tempo of the recorded clip changes.

Opening older projects, all my One-Shots are seen as Beat-Mapped, even though my preferences have designated otherwise.

Is there any way to completely defeat Beat-Mapping?

Again, this was never a problem in Acid 4..... what could be different?

Marty
OnQ Film

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:9/25/2006 10:01:13 AM

Very odd, because when I import older ACID projects into ACID Pro 6, my recordings are kept as their original One-shot incarnations.

Could there be something up with your installation? (Try uninstalling and then reinstalling using only the update? Keep your serial key handy if you try this route.)

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Marty Baggen

Date:9/25/2006 10:21:39 AM

My ver 6 install was fresh.

Are there any other parameters that dictate Beat-Mapping other than the Preferences section? I just want it to go away.

I've been using Acid since ver 2, and ver 6 has made a mess of things as I currently attempt to use it.

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:9/26/2006 10:20:28 AM

Could the problem be that you're expecting One-shots to stretch along with the rest of the ACID project when it changes tempo?

Remember, One-shots do NOT change tempo and/or key when the ACID project does so.

For example, you have a One-shot recording that was originally recorded with a tempo of 120 BPM, and during the course of playback of this One-shot recording you change the ACID project's tempo (via a tempo marker) to 140 BPM. The One-shot recording itself will still remain at 120 BPM (which would, of course, cause loss of sync with the rest of the project).

Other than that, I'm at a loss as to why the other aspects (like ACID identifying former One-shot tracks as Beatmapped) are so whacky.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: spinweb

Date:4/7/2007 2:05:33 PM

mD,

How annoying is this? To change your tempo and have only 1/2 your song come with you.

So, what's the workaround? I have 57 tracks recorded as beatmaps and my foundation is one-shot drum loops.... I want to change tempo of my song.

There has to be a way, right?

Thanks,

Rick

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/7/2007 9:51:24 PM

Yep the Acid 6 implementation of this is bewildering to say the least. I have been incredibly frustrated about this issue for some time but haven’t bothered saying anything about it because there just doesn’t seem to be any point.

Sony have said previously that when in this situation they want users to time stretch the source (one shot) material. It seems that they have deliberately removed functionality in A6 to force users to do this.

I’d be happy to be shown that I’m wrong on this, that there is a logical, practical reason for the change and it’s not just some misguided ideological crusade on Sony’s part...But I gotta say, history doesn’t fill me with confidence.

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/9/2007 10:35:15 AM

@Rick (spinweb): It would depend on how the percussion One-shots were arranged.

For example, if you drop a One-shot kick every quarter note on a track and change the tempo, the track will adjust accordingly. Try it.

One-shots are designed to play once in any given event/instance on the timeline. They are not designed to loop like Loops are designed. They are to have a beginning and an end.

A drum sample that has a particular rhythm should NOT be a One-shot; it should be Loop or Beatmapped. (If the drum sample in question has no particular pitch, then the drum sample should be ACIDized as Loop or Beatmapped without a root key.)

Most percussive One-shots are designed for a single hit (which you can then arrange as you see fit on the timeline), not some complicated (or even simple) rhythm.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: spinweb

Date:4/9/2007 1:38:10 PM

Thanks mD.

What I do with an already existing ACID project containing a drum folder with mostly loops, but surely some one-shot kicks and cymbals, and a whole lot of vocals and guitar parts recorded as whatever the default track type is??

If I slide the tempo up, everything I recorded is out of tune. That's bad.

Seems like there might be two answers: 1) for existing projects; and 2) for the future.

I've put a lot of time and effort into this project and I need to be able to increase the tempo 5 bpm. How can I do it if my drums are loops and one-shots and my guitar/vocals are beatmapped?

Thx,
Rick

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/10/2007 9:29:43 AM

You're welcome. :)

For future projects, if you think that you're going to change tempo later on, don't record as One-shot. Record as Beatmapped instead. (You can, of course, change the ACID track type for recorded audio under Options > Preferences > Audio.)

I used to record as One-shot for my guitar tracks too for fear of ACID trying to stretch a Beatmapped track, but what I've discovered is that there is no difference in quality between the two as long as the track is kept at the original tempo that it was recorded at.

(Additionally, ACID does not apply key info for a recorded Beatmapped track, only tempo, so you'd be safe when recording percussion tracks.)

As far as your existing project goes, your Loops and Beatmapped tracks will be fine when changing to other tempos. Since your percussion One-shot tracks are long, what I would do is ACIDize them properly into another track type; what I would suggest is Beatmapped.

This can be done by first isolating the tracks you need/want to change tempo by soloing them. Set the Loop Region over the area you want to render, then render them out to a new track using the "render loop region only" option. (Ctrl + M is the shortcut.)

If the tracks in question are longer than 30 seconds (by default), then the resulting rendered track will be a Beatmapped track. And that's basically it. Now when the project tempo changes, so will this particular track.

Take note: You should render out using the original tempo of the One-shot track. For example, if the original tempo of the One-shot track you know for a fact is 120 BPM, then change the overall ACID project tempo to 120 BPM before you go to render to a new track.

It's very important to do this since ACID applies the overall ACID project tempo (and key, where applicable) to a newly-rendered track. Since One-shot tracks take a "what you hear is what you get" approach, you must know the original tempo in order to ACIDize the track properly as another ACID track type.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/10/2007 9:40:06 AM

Whoops, forgot to correct something:

When you go to render to a new track, ACID usually applies tempo and key info to a newly-rendered track. For percussion tracks without a definite pitch, this is obviously not desirable. Just go into the clip properties and under, "root note," change the setting to, "don't transpose."

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/12/2007 4:10:46 AM

Iaco thanks for your patients and consideration in this thread.

I don’t know if you have noticed but I am a little frustrated about some of the issues rased here. :) These issues are really important to me, and for years I feel my questions have been completely ignored by Sony.

I am hoping you might have some sort of insight into the problem. (Some more than me anyway)

...Like a great many producers I have issues with forcing artists to follow rigid click tracks. Performances are alive spontaneous and real. Great players know when to push a song and when to pull it back.

Acid used to support music like this. You could record your rhythm section , and then with a little work get Acid to follow the ebb and flow of the performance.

Acid does not seem to allow you to do this anymore. Sony have indicated previously that there preference was to stretch the source material to force it to follow Acid’s ridged grid. They now seem to have forced this workflow upon their users.

While in some situations this solution is acceptable (desirable even); there are a great many situations where it is an anathema. It’s akin to saying that Acid no longer supports music with key changes, that any time the music attempts to change key Acid is going to force it back to its original key.

So my question is, do you know how to do the above in Acid without completely destroying the character and nuances of the performance?

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Jay R

Date:4/12/2007 6:21:19 AM

I do what you did - treat everything as one-shots. But I lose my ability to achieve on-the-fly tempo changes that way, as well as quantizing my sloppy tracks when needed. Still, I consider it a fair tradeoff.

The clip properties allows you to treat beatmapped and looped clips as one-shots, or vice-versa. I've found that very useful.

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/12/2007 12:05:43 PM

@Weevil:

Mmm...you could use ACID's Groove Tool to apply some swing/syncopation/whatever but it cannot be used on Beatmapped tracks. There's quite a few presets in the Groove Pool, plus you may create your own.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: spinweb

Date:4/16/2007 4:10:19 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that I can't move the tempo slider and have everything in my project move together -- is a bug.

It's preposterous that I need to go back and rework 100 layers to get them to move in tandem with the loops to use a feature that's in the interface and marketed for the software.

So, if I render my project and import it into a new project to adjust the tempo there, I'm still up a creek. If I set it as a beatmapped track--it warbles, same with making it into a loop!! And if I call it a one-shot I can't change the tempo!

Really frustrating Sony.

Subject:RE: One Shot Properties

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/17/2007 2:14:18 PM

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. ;o)

Seriously, though, you have to understand that One-shots are One-shots. They're the only ACIDized form of audio ACID does not time stretch in any way. (That's a good thing; I don't want ACID flamming the hell out of my custom-arranged percussion One-shot tracks. I want a kick to be a kick and a snare to be a snare and nothing more.)

There's also only so much magic an app like ACID Pro can do. (This applies to other apps as well; I don't care what anyone says.) You can only stretch digital audio so much before it begins to sound unnatural to your ear. Generally speaking, it's best to stretch a Loop or Beatmapped track to a faster tempo than a slower tempo.

I always stress to people who use ACID Pro to seriously check out ACID Pro's stretch marker capability. (Available via the clip properties dialog.) It won't do absolute magic every time, but it can definitely help a Loop when it stretches to other tempos.

Iacobus