OT: another copyright issue

sonic ra wrote on 2/28/2007, 12:51 PM
I know this has been beat to death, but I got a situation that I need some clarification on.

I shot a fashion show for a very prominent hotel in my area and I asked the General Manager about what type of music he wanted and he said something from the show or something current that fit the feeling of the show. I asked him if he had concerns about copyright issues, licensing, etc. and his response was, "If it becomes an issue, I'll beg for forgiveness later."

Okay, fine. So I set it to a popular alternative rock song and gave it to him to review. He loves it, but now he writes in his email, "If I put this on our website is there any licensing with regards to the music or anything else?"

Unfortunately, I don't know how to answer his question. Does anyone know where the responsibility lies? Is it legal? Can I be sued even though the song is not being used to sell anything specific?

It does help promote the hotel, but what is the likelyhood that the hotel will be able to get permission? And if they don't, how likely is it that someone will notice and want to sue? And if they do beg for forgiveness and pull the clip, will that be enough to satisfy the music label or will they play hard ball?

Comments

jrazz wrote on 2/28/2007, 1:14 PM
I would inform him that if he wishes to make this public in any way, we will need to substitute the music with something else. There are plenty of lowcost alternatives out there that sound just as good. If he insists on displaying it, well, you are the one who made it and synced it without a sync license so if anything ever does become of it, fingers will be pointing at you.

j razz
Jay Gladwell wrote on 2/28/2007, 1:24 PM

You are both responsible. You both could be sued. No, it's not legal (you're using copyrighted music without getting the proper clearance).

Whether or not the hotel can get permission is not your concern. Whether or not the copyright holder(s) will sue is totally up to them. Can you afford ($$$) to gamble with that possibility?

Pulling the clip may or may not have any bearing on whether you and/or the hotel is sued. They could something as simple as sending a letter demanding that the clip be removed, and they could sue in addition to that.

It isn't worth for you. It isn't fair for the hotel to put you in this situation. It simple isn't worth it financially.


Jay_Mitchell wrote on 2/28/2007, 1:25 PM
Not necessarily. It is the "End Users" responsibility to secure all rights. If you can get a an indemnification clause added from him that holds you harmless for his use of the media, you will be in a better CYA position. Now, that doesn't mean that you should include the media without first seeking the rights to do so.

Jay Mitchell
johnmeyer wrote on 2/28/2007, 2:30 PM
Don't do it.

BTW, I had a client like this, only it was the NSA (yup, the spook agency). We went through the same dance as you (i.e., was it legal; who could be sued ...), and after he checked with legal back in Virginia, he figured out a way around it:

He made the entire project top secret!!

I kid you not. There wasn't one single thing that was even remotely secret, but by putting it under cover, he stopped anyone from finding out about it.

It's a "solution" not available to any other group as far as I know ...
farss wrote on 2/28/2007, 3:15 PM
My advice from personal experience.
Don't make a big deal of this with the client. Tell them the facts, it's wrong and they could possibly get sued. Have a legal bod draw up a warranty that indemnifies you if you get sued as well.

I've sadly learn the hard way that doing the right thing is more expensive than doing the wrong thing. That's a very, very sad state of affairs indeed. At the top level of consideration I don't really care what the law is so long as it's enforced and enforced accross the board and enforced ruthlessly. When it becomes enforced randomly or only the actions creating the greatest commercial damage are persued then we have a very serious ethical issue.

It is simply very wrong when those that flount the law get a commercial advantage over those of us who consider the ethics and the legality of what we do. It's repugnant to me being thought a bit of a nutter when I think it matters if I break the law. The only way this will get fixed is by either changing the law or enforcing the law.

Bob.
sonic ra wrote on 2/28/2007, 3:35 PM
Well, Thanks to you good people, I gave him the facts, told him about the indemnity clause if he chooses to proceed, and put the ball in his court.

j razz said, "There are plenty of lowcost alternatives out there that sound just as good."

If I do re-cut it, I would need a music program (preferably something I can cut to the same tempo/beat) or some good royalty -free music fit for a sexy fashion show. Can anyone make suggestions? Thanks!
corug7 wrote on 2/28/2007, 4:39 PM
Um... Acid? Cinescore?

Heck, even Acid Studio should be enough, and much less than a RIAA fine (or a lawyer, or both).
blink3times wrote on 2/28/2007, 6:03 PM
I'm not a lawyer... but it ssems to me that the law has ALREADY been broken here. You've taken a copyrighted piece of music, put it on a disk, and passed it on to someone.

Would it not be YOU that bares full responsibility for this??
p@mast3rs wrote on 2/28/2007, 6:40 PM
I agree, it sounds like he would have needed the clause BEFORE using the copyrighted piece, not after using it. Kind of like taking a coke out of the store, drinking it and then offering to pay for it if you get sued.

Did you know this going into it that he wanted this specific music or did he say something current and you just picked copyrighted track? It sounds like its totally on you unless he lead you to believe he had secured legal rights to use of the material.

Offer to replace the track, if he objects, kindly refund some of his payment and cut your loss is my advice. The hotel guy sounds shady a bit and whats to stop him from singing like a canary if pinched ad he says you assured him you secured the rights and thats why he used the piece you edited?

Expensive lesson learned which could get much more expensive if you dont remove it period. Forget about securing rights to the track if its any one remotely popular. Search the forums and youll see horror stories of people trying to license music. $$$$ and big ones at that.
sonic ra wrote on 2/28/2007, 6:59 PM
Point(s) taken. Thank you for the clarification.

I think I opened the can of Coke (privately using a track from a CD I purchased), but I'm still in the store (since it hasn't been made public). Unfortunately, I don't have the $$$ to pay for it, so I might have to put it back on the shelf. Oops. (whistling and walking away).

So....Acid or Cinescore? Can I use the same tempo, or is that illegal too?
Serena wrote on 2/28/2007, 7:24 PM
Tempo is tempo. 4/4, 3/4, 5/7 are beats. But a particular rhythm can be claimed under copyright if it is unique to a piece. For a fashion show I would think the tempo and beat are the main requirements, and 4/4 is extremely common in rock. Ask Jonathon to write a piece!
TShaw wrote on 2/28/2007, 7:25 PM
Acid if you know how to use it. You can setup the same tempo and yes its legal. Try the demo downloads for both and see witch
works best for you. Goodluck.

Terry
daryl wrote on 3/1/2007, 12:47 PM
5/7 time signature? That's interesting, being a drummer, I'd like to try it.
Jay_Mitchell wrote on 3/1/2007, 3:23 PM
Today, A new lawyer in a firm that I have done media licensing business with many times in the past, has requested in the License Agreement that I sign away my "Moral Rights" to to them for a clip that is going to be used in their project. I didn't know that I had Moral Rights, until today.

My Attorney thought that it was pretty funny.


Jay Mitchell
Serena wrote on 3/1/2007, 3:40 PM
>>>5/7: I'd like to try it.<<<

You're welcome. For sure I can't!
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 3/1/2007, 4:27 PM
so what you're saying is, they want to make sure you ok with them syncing it to porn?

Today, A new lawyer in a firm that I have done media licensing business with many times in the past, has requested in the License Agreement that I sign away my "Moral Rights" to to them for a clip that is going to be used in their project. I didn't know that I had Moral Rights, until today.

Dave
nolonemo wrote on 3/1/2007, 4:29 PM
>>I think I opened the can of Coke (privately using a track from a CD I purchased), but I'm still in the store (since it hasn't been made public).<<

I think that if he paid you money for it (or even if you just gave him ownership of the disc) you already left the store.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 3/1/2007, 5:19 PM
I think that if he paid you money for it (or even if you just gave him ownership of the disc) you already left the store.

Bingo.
CClub wrote on 3/1/2007, 8:46 PM
Along the lines of this posting, I'm burning up because I just lost a nice paying job to a competing videographer who agreed to sync copyrighted music to a video production, whereas I told the client that it can't be done legally. This is being done by a large agency, and I work alongside this agency and will know when the production is completed. I'd love to be able to "whistleblow" on both the videographer and the agency that blew me off for this loser. Anything I can do about it... anyone I can call, email, etc. to tell them where to look for this illegal video work?
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 3/1/2007, 10:10 PM
if you're gonna do it, then you don't wanna be making it public that it was you. You probably wanna annonymously tip them, and do it in some manner that is not pointing to you. Don't shoot your mouth off about it, and don't talk much about it. You could suffer in ways you don't know for trying to make people obey the law. It totally blows going legal, but that's the way it is if you have a conscience and don't want to get in trouble with the law. You can probably notify ascap, but I'm not sure how to go about it.

Dave
alltheseworlds wrote on 3/2/2007, 12:42 AM
CClub. Just tip off the coptright holder via anonymouse email or a phone call. You'll be doing every independent soundtrack composer and musician a favor.
sonic ra wrote on 3/2/2007, 2:11 PM
Okay, I scrapped the song.

I'm trying Acid, but I don't think I can come up with anything good enough in 3 days. Should I try digital juice?

>>Ask Jonathon to write a piece!<<- Serena

I did 2 days ago...no response.
totally lost wrote on 3/2/2007, 3:22 PM
Here's some info about snyc rights for films.
http://www.newenglandfilm.com/news/archives/00july/music.htm
totally lost wrote on 3/2/2007, 3:37 PM
Here's a legit option. https://magnatune.com/

and a basic article about this topic http://www.promotionworld.com/marketing/online/article/070228protectingyourwebsite.html