Menu quality / re render

wgkenney wrote on 2/27/2007, 5:49 AM
Hi all,

I've been reading in the forums about the poor quality of menus in DVD Arch. I had not noticed this until my current project. I'm looking for a potential way around this.

My main menu background is an MPEG2 done in Vegas 5 and I'm using DVD arch 2. When I render in vegas to MPEG 2 the video looks great. There is a background picture with several high quality still that do some transitions. When I add it to the background in DVD 2 arch and preview it looks great. Very high quality, very crisp.

When to the prepare video and bring it up is looks terrible. Blocky pictures, Blocky lettering. You don't notice is much on the computer with a small window in the media player but if you go full screen on the computer or on a TV Screen it is very noticable, especially given that the actually video (which includes still and lettering as well) looks outstanding.

I'm guessing that this is because the menu gets rerendered in the prep phase and my video does not. I used the DVD2 Arch template when I did the render to MPEG 2 in vegas (just like the main video). The main video does not need to be re rendered by DVDarch. Only the one on the menu does (the audio is fine).

Does DVD2 always re reneder (recompress?) the menu video / backgrounds? Is there a format that i can render to that will correct this issue (I tried going to AVI format in hopes that with only one render in DVD arch it would look fine. Still does not).

I've seen this as an issue in these forums, but no resolution. Is this just a fact of life for DVD2 Arch (so i should buy / use different software) or is there a work around?

Any help would be great.

Comments

StormMarc wrote on 2/27/2007, 8:55 AM
You'll need to upgrade to DVDA3 or later. They gave us an option to not render the menus in progressive. They tell us however that they still recommend we render the motion menus as progressive to ensure higher compatiblity with DVD players. You might try rendering your motion menu as a progressive video file in Vegas and try to use in DVDA2. This might solve your problem.

The problem I find when rendering as progressive however is that I lose resolution. So I end up usually rendering my motion menus as interlaced and turn off render as progressive (option available in DVDA3 and higher). Anything important I do in Reel DVD which never had this problem and is very reliable (but outdated).

Hope this helps,

Marc
MPM wrote on 2/27/2007, 9:20 AM
When you do your menus, in DVDA or most authoring apps for that matter, the only things you have to do in the authoring app is create the button hot spots -- everything else can be done beforehand... If you have problems with the rendered lettering for example, do it before hand in Vegas when you're doing your background video. It's the same thing from a tech aspect -- when you do text or whatever in DVDA it's just composited with your vid background & re-rendered, so do the compositing elsewhere.

And, if your menu is going to have to be re-rendered, go to avi rather than mp2 in Vegas -- No sense in rendering to mpg2 twice, which wastes time & quality. Otherwise personally I've had much better luck using progressive vid for menus and transition video in DVDA if that helps.

"if you go full screen on the computer or on a TV Screen it is very noticable"

Sorry but personally haven't seen any unexpected problems including large screen SD TV.

"the menu gets rerendered in the prep phase and my video does not."

There is only one background video (mpg2) for a menu... If DVDA has to render it, it takes your still or video, composites any text or graphics on top of it, and re-renders the video, so yes, your video does get rendered a 2nd time. If the video looks good but the composited stuff doesn't, it could be DVDA compositing at fault, or sometimes maybe a poor choice of color, saturation, blending, &/or graphic. Adding any text or button graphics in Vegas, should be able to point to one or the other.

"Is this just a fact of life for DVD2 Arch (so i should buy / use different software) or is there a work around?"

As above, whatever you're doing in DVDA, other than laying out the button areas, do outside of DVDA. The button areas are the only important thing in DVDA. Highlight masks can (& should) be done in you're choice of graphics software -- a simple png file with black shapes & background transparency works really well. [note: if you have problems with png transparency *might* help to update to ie 7 as it *finally* includes a new - working - windows png filter.]

"I've seen this as an issue in these forums, but no resolution."

Totally FWIW, off-the-wall & all that... I've actually never had a problem with DVDA menus...
wgkenney wrote on 2/27/2007, 10:14 AM
Thanks MPM,

I actually do all my text in either PSP or Vegas so that is there when I bring it into DVDA2. I did try to go to an AVI and it still looks bad (the text is passable, the stills I'm using are very jaggy after the DVD prep, they look great in the preview prior to prep).

My questions is, is there a way to add a motion menu in DVDA without having DVDA recompress or rerender it. The poster above has explained that in DVDA3 and above there is an option. Unfortunately I have DVDA2. Is there a format I can use when I render the motion menu in Vegas that DVDA2 won't feel obligated to rerender .... or does it always rerender a menu.

MPM wrote on 2/27/2007, 10:39 AM
AFAIK there's no option in any of the DVDA versions to keep it from re-rendering menu video... On the other hand, if you don't add anything to the menu in DVDA, it doesn't have to -- check Optimize under the File menu.

DVDA or any authoring app has to render the menu vid if you change it - this is so that whatever changes become part of that video. But if you don't add any changes: delete the title text, use empty image buttons to denote the area, there's nothing for it to do.

On the other hand, DVDA uses the same encoder I think as Vegas, and the results should be pretty much the same. If Vegas does mpg2 OK, I would expect DVDA to do the same. I'd guess that if there is a problem it's likely the way DVDA might render or composite text or graphics or "?" on top of the video, so my basic suggestion is not to have DVDA put *anything* on top of your background.

Hope that helps. :-)
wgkenney wrote on 2/27/2007, 12:50 PM
Thanks MPM,

let me try that tonight and see if it works.

I would have guessed that the rerender would be as good as vegas as well. I don't seem to see any options though in DVDA2 for things like two pass etc. The rendering done in Vegas and brought over looks great. I was surprised that with an AVI file and only one render it did not look better. Again, everything looks good unit the menu does the "prepare" stage where the re render takes place.
StormMarc wrote on 2/28/2007, 8:24 AM
Here is a excerpt from the DVD Architect 4 online help:

"If you use a background video in your menu, we recommend rendering the video in progressive-scan format before adding it to your project. On the Video tab of the Optimize DVD dialog, click the Progressive box and choose Auto to render the noncompliant menu as progressive-scan video. Progressive-scan menus will provide the sharpest-looking text and highest level of DVD player compatibility.

If you need to use interlaced video as a menu background, click the Progressive box and choose No. When you choose No, the noncompliant menu will be rendered as interlaced video.

Some DVD players will not display the last frame of a menu correctly when using interlaced background video.

Note from me: You can render a progressive MPEG video file from Vegas by choosing to render as progressive in the render options.
StormMarc wrote on 2/28/2007, 8:26 AM
Here is a link where this problem was discussed and commented on by Sony:

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=22&MessageID=401094

wgkenney wrote on 2/28/2007, 10:42 AM
Thanks!
bbgunn wrote on 3/5/2007, 6:17 PM
I, too get the jaggies after rendering motion menus in dvd architect version 4. I've tried everything I can think of to minimize the effect - progressive, interlaced, mpeg2, avi, both in vegas 7.0 and in architect and still can't clear it up.

I don't know if this will work to demonstrate, but I took some screen shots.
(The internet explorer browser doesn't do much justice to the jpegs, you may have to zoom in or save them to your hard drive to see it better):

1. First I created a simple video project in Vegas 7.0 using a still PNG file with a black background-

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/test1.jpg

As you can see (if you zoom in) the logo is pretty crystal clear.

2. I rendered the video using the AVI NTSC DV codec with it set to progressive.
(I have also tried this with interlaced and also both settings using the mpeg2 main concept codec).

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/test2.jpg

3. This is the result (sorry for the poor quality, I actually took a camera photo of the screen), but as you can see, not really too bad (remember to zoom in).

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/media1.jpg

4. Then I brought this avi file into dvd architect as a background for the main menu.

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/test4.jpg

5. I did a video preview using the "best" setting.

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/test5.jpg

still looking good.

6. I rendered this simple menu, no buttons, no movement (it's still just a still graphic) using the default bitrate 8.0 and progressive set to yes.

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/test6.jpg

7. and after rendering to my hard drive and playing back the resulting vob in media player, walla... yuk! It is also quite noticeable on the television after burning to disk as well. It actually looks kind of like it is using "draft mode" from the preview window to actually render the vob.

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/media2.jpg

(Remember-it's a camera photo and to zoom in)

In every combination I've tried, it looks great until that final render to dvd.

I'll keep trying and if I find anything out I'll let you know.
Right now I'm thinking the graphics are going to have to be pretty simple and square - looking to work with this software.

I've left the original graphic logo here if anyone wants to experiment...

http://www.vinnemusic.com/test/07daytona500.png











StormMarc wrote on 3/5/2007, 10:15 PM
bbgunn,

If you're using version 4 try this:

When your ready to prepare your DVD click:

Make DVD

Prepare

Choose your folder and click next

Click on the optimze button

Highlight your motion menu and then click video 1 tab. Change progressive to NO. This should solve your jaggies but according to Sony the disc may not work as well on some players.

Hope this helps,

Marc
bbgunn wrote on 3/6/2007, 5:06 AM
Nope. That doesn't work either.
Part of me says it has something to do with the logo graphic.
Maybe I'll try some other logo and see what it does.

What's really funny is that I used to have dvd architect studio version 4 (the watered down version that came with vegas movie studio) and I don't remember this happening with that. Maybe I'll have to load that software up and try it.

MPM wrote on 3/6/2007, 5:54 AM
FWIW... Probably not going to like it but IMHO I'd start by tweaking the original graphic; if you want this on SD TV tone down the colors, & soften the edges -- yes it can be done without messing with the impression of crispness. Next, either render in Vegas or wherever, & if you use an intermediate stay away from DV by all means -- DV does a good job, but it's not perfect nor intended for use as an intermediate. It could be part of your problem with the red. My advice would be to check your graphics using NTSC or PAL filters for color gamut, as well as previewing on a crt tv. In the app you used to create the logo, feather a bit and use shadows.

Personally I've never had a problem rendering progressive -- don't understand how rendering interlaced will/would help, but I'll accept that for some it does. If you feel the problem is originating in DVDA, then as in an earlier post: Add ALL graphics prior to import, & DVDA WILL NOT render or change it. And, remember that DVD resolution is small by PC monitor std.s. A 720 x 480 compressed still is not going to look as good F/S on a 19 or 20 " monitor (particularly LCD) as it does on the interlaced TV it was designed for.
bbgunn wrote on 3/6/2007, 7:04 AM
Well, sorry to disagree. I did the next two steps...

1. I dropped the logo straight into dvd architect on top of the default "menu1" template. This puts Vegas out of the test completely.
It's a still image on a still background -rendered and had the same jaggy problem.

Then-

2. I downloaded the trial version of DVD Architect Studio 4.0 from the Sony website. This is the version that comes with the $99 Vegas movie studio software that you can get at best buy. I ran the same exact test - dropped the same PNG graphic logo onto the default template. Rendered that - pulled up the vob in media player - crystal clear, no jaggies. I noticed in this version of DVDAS that there isn't even an option for progressive vs interlaced in the optimize menu. hmmmmmm....

Verdict - there is either something wrong with my software load of DVDA 4.0 on my home computer, or there is still something seriously wrong with the design of the DVD Architect 4.0 rendering
engine that is not apparent on the watered down DVD Architect Studio 4.0 software. I suspect the latter.
bbgunn wrote on 3/6/2007, 7:10 PM
OK sorry - I was wrong.
When I loaded the DVD Architect Studio trial it was on a different computer at work.
I came home and loaded it on my home pc and the jaggies came back even with the watered down version. Now I am starting to wonder if I have a bad software load or there is some hardware incompatibility. Maybe my Main Concept driver is corrupt. It does appear to be a problem on my pc alone.

I'll let everyone know when I figure it out.
MPM wrote on 3/6/2007, 7:20 PM
FWIW my experience over the years is that the higher up the food chain you go with software, the more mistakes it'll let you make. ;?P

Vegas for example will let you do just about anything you want, assuming you'll want the extra measure of control. Lower end programs often take away options and have a more "do it for you" philosophy. It's not a bad thing necessarily *if* you don't want or need the extra flexibility. The important thing is you got done what you needed done.

"Verdict - there is either something wrong with my software load of DVDA 4.0 on my home computer, or there is still something seriously wrong with the design of the DVD Architect 4.0 rendering
engine that is not apparent on the watered down DVD Architect Studio 4.0 software. I suspect the latter"

I believe that as advertised the studio version is a subset of the code used with the higher end versions -- in other words frankly features are compromised to differentiate between versions, same as Adobe's Photoshop & Photoshop Elements. But the basic code, methods etc remain the same.

But again the important thing is you solved your problem.
edit: apologies - wrote this as you were posting that you had a problem at home PC.
bbgunn wrote on 3/6/2007, 7:47 PM
Guys - I feel like an idiot.

Problem solved. For those who are idiots like myself who are complaining of blurriness, jaggies, that sort of thing---

I have one answer for you : REDUCE INTERLACE FLICKER - TURN IT ON!
It's under media properties (right side pane) general tab.

You may now all kick me.
MPM wrote on 3/6/2007, 7:52 PM
Reduce interlace flicker ads a small amount of blur so graphics span scan lines better if that helps understanding at all. If you're going to show this on CRT TVs, might want to check it there as well.
NeilF wrote on 3/7/2007, 9:46 AM
Glad to hear your problem is solved bb, but mine isn't just yet. I have been following this string with the same resolutioin issues on the main menu. Movie is fine but the MM is poor with jaggies, staricases and pixelation. Looks great in preview but poor after render and burn. I've preparing a 30 second mm background in Premere Elements, exporting to DV-AVI and replacing the default mm background in DVDA 4.0 and set to loop. It's interlaced so I'm unchecking the enable PS optioin in preferences.

The segment is a slide show with all jpg files taken with a DSLR and downsized to 1200 x 800. The photos are then scaled down pretty small in PREL as in a PIP, and as many as 6 pics are showing at a time. There are numerous transitions so the pics slide in from the sides or fade out. Interesting behavior is the menu starts out fine with nice sharp edges, but after the second or third picture appears, (5 seconds or so into the menu), something happens and the edges all go jagged from there on out. Almost like the program just gave up and said the heck with it. Anybody else have this experience?
MPM wrote on 3/7/2007, 4:59 PM
If you're going to downsize your clips, downsize them to the largest size you'll need in your NLE -- if using prem elements, check Adobe's site for recommendations like this one (although it's prem pro):
http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/premiere/articles/pre7ppimport.html

Skip DV and render to mpg2 in your NLE. Make sure that looks good before importing into DVDA. If not consider filtering or FX to the track before render, things like a small amount of blur. Interlace will look worse in DVDA I think, so check your rendered DVD on hdd using DVD player software. Bear in mind that the frame is still going to be relatively small compared to what your PC monitor can handle - if you're viewing enlarged, expect it to look worse than it will on a TV - not a bad place to check it BTW.
NeilF wrote on 3/8/2007, 7:17 AM
Thanks MPM. If I'm following your logic correctly, the idea is that DVDA will not re-compress the mpg2 since it's already DVD compliant media. As long as I'm not adding anything in DVDA (other than buttons), it will leave the background as it is and not mess with it. Is that correct? I will try this and let you know. Thanks again for the help!
MPM wrote on 3/8/2007, 7:49 AM
"If I'm following your logic correctly, the idea is that DVDA will not re-compress the mpg2 since it's already DVD compliant media. As long as I'm not adding anything in DVDA (other than buttons), it will leave the background as it is and not mess with it."

Thats correct. ;?P
Remember, you can always check Optimization to make sure DVDA is going to leave your mpg2 alone.
NeilF wrote on 3/9/2007, 6:09 AM
Problem solved! Looks like for this situation it required the combintation of using an mpg2 background and unchecking the "enable PS render of mm" in prefferences. Resolution is much better, and all edges are sharp. Thanks MPM and all others for the tips and helpful information!