Subject:Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrument
Posted by: VMP
Date:1/10/2007 4:20:34 AM
Short description: Can playback vst instrument. Can not render vst instrument audio. --- Hi, I recentley purchased East West Symphonic Choir . A virtual instrument which you can use as VST plugin with Acid Pro6. It works as followes. Midi controller -> Acid pro - > WordBuilder -> VST Instrument. 1. Midi controller plays the midi info to Acid Pro logically. 2. Acid pro outputs the midi info from its timeline to WordBuilder. (WordBuilder is a software which controlles the tone of the voice and sits between Acid and Choir vst instrument plugin. Through virtual kabels like maple/midi yoke etc You can control the voice by inputting words in the WordBuilder.) 3. WordBuilder then oupts the manipulated midi info to Acid pro through 5 channels, which you can then record with Acid Pro. . . According to Makers this is how I should use the VST Choir instrument in Acid Pro 6. ----------------------- 1. Open WordBuilder. 2. In the Voice Setup screen, select Tenors. 3. MIDI In should be set to Maple MIDI / MIDI Yoke Port 1. 4. MIDI Out should be set to Maple MIDI / MIDI Yoke Port 2. 5. Type a few words into the English Text Editor in WordBuilder. 6. Open Acid Pro. 7. Click on Options -> Preferences -> MIDI. Verify that the Interapplication MIDI ports are enabled. These ports should have a check mark next to them. If they do not, check them and press 'Apply'. 8. Create a soft synth track with Symphonic Choirs. 9. Click on the arrow next to "New Multi" and select a Tenors WB Multi from the list. 10. Create 6 new MIDI tracks. MIDI track 1 Input : MIDI controller input port. Output: MIDI Port 1, Channel 1. MIDI track 2 Input : MIDI Port 2, Channel 1. Output: Symphonic Choirs, Channel 1. MIDI track 3 Input : MIDI Port 2, Channel 2. Output: Symphonic Choirs, Channel 2. MIDI track 4 Input: MIDI Port 2, Channel 3. Output: Symphonic Choirs, Channel 3. MIDI track 5 Input : MIDI Port 2, Channel 4. Output: Symphonic Choirs, Channel 4. MIDI track 6 Input: MIDI Port 2, Channel 5. Output: Symphonic Choirs, Channel 5. 23. Record enable MIDI track 1. MIDI track 1 will be the track used to record your performances. ----------------------- Thats all nice, when I playback recorded Midi info on the timeline everything works fine I hear the choir etc. But when I render the track there is no audio on the renderd file Wave, Mp3 etc. Thats very strange. Playback works but renderd file has no audio!. Makers Tech support said as reply to the problem: 'Record enable the other 5 MIDI tracks and play through the piece once. This should put all the appropriate MIDI data on the WordBuilder return tracks. ' Buit still no audio! on the renderrd tracks I do understand how the system works. Midi Track 1 outputs the midi info to WordBuilder. WordBuilder outputs the manipulated midi info to AcidPro through 5 channels onto the 5 Midi tracks. But it seems like the Miidi info Dosent stick on the Midi tracks. Even when they are 'Record enabled'. This was their last reply: 'For us, if we just leave all the tracks on record enable when exporting them to a new Track, it works. Nothing special... ' In other words there must be something wrong with MY acidPro settings... I hope you can help me solve the problem, V Message last edited on1/10/2007 11:49:09 AM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrument
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:1/10/2007 12:21:27 PM
Mmm...as long as the MIDI track has data and is routed through the VSTi, it should render properly. Sounds kinda funky on how it's done though. If MIDI track 1 is "listening" and recording to what WordBuilder puts out...where does it get routed from there in order to get rendered? Shouldn't MIDI track 1 be eventually routed to East West Symphonic Choir from there? Iacobus |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrument
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/10/2007 12:57:07 PM
Hi Iacobus , Well... to make it a bit easier to understand. A. Midi Track 1 has the 'recorded' midi events. The rest are empty. When I playback. B. Midi Track 1 sends the midi recorded/painted events to WordBuilder program through 'virtual Midi kabel 'Midi Yoke' C.WordBuilder manipulates the received midi info and sends it back to Acid Pro. D. Acid pro recieves the Midi info from WordBuilder through the 5 Midi Tracks ( which is under the Midi Track 1 logically) And plays thrugh the Choir VST plugin. So some how the 5 midi tracks which has no events on the timeline magically remembers the info which they recieved by step D. When I record enable them, according to East West. But renderd file dosent have any sound so..... its very strange! I have tried copy pasting the recorded events from Midi track 1 to the 5 tracks under though. But that messes the sound up. Obviously the cycle - Acid-WordBuilder-Acid(VST plugin) has to happen realtime when rendering. I just dont get it Playback works but renderd file has no sound... If I set the output from Midi Track 1 straight to Choir VST Plugin it does render sound. But I need the WordBuilder to work. Message last edited on1/10/2007 12:59:29 PM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrument
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/10/2007 1:31:26 PM
Here I made a Diagram http://www.v-mp.com/Files/sc-acid-diagram.jpg V |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date:1/10/2007 8:27:55 PM
> So some how the 5 midi tracks which has no events on the timeline magically remembers the info which they recieved by step D. When I record enable them, according to East West. I don't know how WordBuilder works but I do know that magic does not work. If there are no events on the tracks this is why there is no audio in your rendered file. If you have the MIDI tracks in record mode they should be recorded to MIDI events on the timeline. If there are no events, there is no recording going on. Your playback is probably track 1 through WordBuilder playing in real-time. If you mute track one, I would guess that the playback would stop too. You have to figure a way to get events recorded on the other 5 tracks. This is the only way to get audio when rendering. ~jr |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/11/2007 2:10:22 AM
Hi JohnnyRoy, Well after your post. 1. I record enabled the 5 tracks under and set the track 1 only for playback (Which has the Midi events). 2. Now pressed the record button. Now the 5 tracks below has indeed recorded the events which they received from Word Builder. And yes now there is audio on the renderd file. But now I am Bypassing the cycle.... Because on the 5 tracks below, which are just standing as receivers for VST Instrument, the option ' Send midi input through Midi output' is enabled on each track. Doesn't this mean that the events on the 5 tracks below are unnecessary? I mean the 5 midi tracks must sent the received Midi info straight to the VST Instrument right? Without having any events on the 5 tracks below. Because I do hear the choir when I playback midi Track 1, without having any events on the 5 tracks below. The whole process works at playback. What I am wondering now is when I render.... does Acid Pro actually playback the timeline, or does it just read whats on the timeline? Because the playback has to happen for this Midi through to happen. BTW There are 5 tracks because totally they can receive the sounds from A to Z. Word Builder and the VST choir Instrument works with 5 channels. So they need 5 tracks to communicate. If I only use 1 track for receiving then maybe it is A to F etc.. So to make it easy you could think them as two tracks totally. One to send Midi to Word Builder and one to receive and pass through to VST Instrument. Thanks for any reply, V Message last edited on1/11/2007 2:37:21 AM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/11/2007 6:01:57 AM
I am recording via soundcard now, actually that works fine. Better than the other options. V |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: JohnnyRoy
Date:1/11/2007 1:10:00 PM
I believe that ACID plays back the project when it renders so I don't see why you need the other tracks just to make a sound file. Without knowing more about WordBuilder it's hard for me to understand what's going on. As long as the VSTi is outputting to the ACID bus it should get recorded. ~jr |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/12/2007 3:31:51 AM
JohnnyRoy you have a very good point there about the VSTi Bus! The db meters of it does indeed light up when I playback! But Not when acid is rendering the project! The problem becomes suddenly much easier to explain. Why is Acid not recording the VSTi bus! which does output audio when playbacked! V Message last edited on1/12/2007 3:34:05 AM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/20/2007 5:35:30 AM
Hi here is an update to the problem. I got a reply from one of the 'users' of the forum who had a much easier way of Acid Pro 6 VSTI Setup for Choir/WordBuilder. ============================================== (Sounds online forum User) ------------ What the hell are you guys going on about?? This is WAY more convoluted than what I do! Boot up the Choirs VST. Load up, say, the full tenors WB multi. Make a MIDI track. Set MIDI input to your controller, and output to MIDI Yoke 1. Open up WB. Set voice to tenors, MIDI input to Midi Yoke 1, and MIDI output to MIDI Yoke 2. Back into Acid. Double click the Symphonic Choirs VST in the mixer window below. The familiar Kompakt interface should open up. Now in the top left of the window are some buttons. For orientation purposes, the very top left says "Edit Soft Synth" but this isn't the one we want. Three buttons to the left of this one, is a little icon with some arrows - "External MIDI Input Port" - click it, and select MIDI Yoke 2 from the drop-down menu so that the Choirs VST is set to "listen" for incoming external data on MIDI Yoke port 2. You're done. Ready to write music. Super easy. Do this for each of your sections, selecting the appropriate ports in Acid and WB. It works great. A detail to watch out for - under Options -> Preferences, click the MIDI tab and make sure Acid's set to use only the MIDI ports specifically required for Acid. In the example above, since Acid is sending MIDI out to port 1 only, make sure only port 1 is enabled for MIDI out because if port 1 and port 2 are both selected, WB won't be able to use port 2 for its own MIDI out purposes. Additionally, DISABLE "Auto Input Routing" at the bottom of the MIDI window. This is critical because otherwise, none of the above will work. My way of getting Wordbuilder and Acid to talk to one another is perfectly fine and is certainly far less complicated than that FAQ entry... you do all your work in one track, no mysterious extra tracks of any kind! ---------------- (Me) ------------- :-D Very funny first line. Wow that is a much easier set up thanks. But I still have problem rendering the project. The renderd file has only just one ' ah.....' in it. Thats strange because the choir Synth mixer- db meter on acid does light up when I playback, and I hear every sound. But not when I render. I do not have similar problem with other soft synths. I do not understand why acid dosent render any sound!, while it does play it back. Anyway, what I do now is record via soundcard back to a 'wave/ audio' track in my Acid Pro 6. I do not know if any audio quality is lost by doing that, but its the only way I guess. No one seems to know any other solution at sony media forum aswell. V ================================================== Message last edited on1/20/2007 5:38:12 AM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/20/2007 5:57:06 AM
May I have to enable something in acid?. Maybe it is something so logical that I dont see it. A: In Acid If I only have one Midi track with output set to Midi Yoke 1 (out put to WB). The ' Render' option in Acid drop down menu ' File' is disabled (grey color) It is only enabled when I ad a audio track with a wave file under it. B: In Acid If I set the Midi track one with output set straight to Kompakt VST evrything works fine. (Bypassing WordBuilder) The 'Render' option is enabled in the drop down menu 'File'. And there is sound on the rendered file. At option 'A ' It is almost as if Acid thinks there is nothing on the timeline so it is not going to render anything and disables the 'Render' option at the drop down menu. V Message last edited on1/20/2007 6:07:45 AM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: pwppch
Date:1/22/2007 1:02:28 PM
"At option 'A ' It is almost as if Acid thinks there is nothing on the timeline so it is not going to render anything and disables the 'Render' option at the drop down menu." Exactly. If ACID looks to see if anything MIDI sequence related will generate "audio" to be rendered. Since your routing has MIDI tracks going to external MIDI hardware (Virtual MIDI router looks like external MIDI ports) , and ACID can't 'render" audio from external hardware, the render options is disabled. I am looking into some possible workaround for this for ACID 6. Peter Message last edited on1/22/2007 9:29:11 PM bypwppch. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/23/2007 12:02:35 PM
Hello SonyPCH , Thanks for your reply. I do have midi events drawn on track 1. And the soft synth is receiving info and outputing it to the bus on Acid. I hope you can find a workaround . V |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: pwppch
Date:1/23/2007 12:58:09 PM
What is track 1 routed to ? Peter |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/23/2007 4:43:16 PM
Track 1 is routed to WordBuilder software via Midi Yoke port 1 (virtual Midi cable). Midi Info then returns from WordBuilder to the (Kompakt) Vst soft synth in Acid via Maple Midi Yoke port 2. The Kompakt Vst soft synth (In Acid) is receiving through the ' External port' option. I am using the same step as the 'Sounds online user' mentioned above. --------- "Double click the Symphonic Choirs VST in the mixer window below. The familiar Kompakt interface should open up. Now in the top left of the window are some buttons. For orientation purposes, the very top left says "Edit Soft Synth" but this isn't the one we want. Three buttons to the left of this one, is a little icon with some arrows - "External MIDI Input Port" - click it, and select MIDI Yoke 2 from the drop-down menu so that the Choirs VST is set to "listen" for incoming external data on MIDI Yoke port 2. ---------- Hope that helped, V Message last edited on1/23/2007 4:49:01 PM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: pwppch
Date:1/23/2007 5:52:59 PM
And this is the problem. ACID was not designed to be used this way when rendering softsynths. The issue is that ACID excludeds hardware MIDI port (which MIDI yoke appears as) during rendering. Since the track is streaming/rendering to hardware and ACID does not know how to "render" hardware, it does not render that track. The problem is that we renderer faster than real-time, and doing this will cause timing issues with external hardware. We will need to add a "render in real-time" option to make this work consistently. From what I can tell, there is no work around, though I am still looking at options. It is very unlikely this will be addressed in an update to ACID 6. I will make sure this gets addressed in a future version of ACID. Peter |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/24/2007 6:26:51 AM
Strange that the maker of the synth do get it to work. ;-( ? This is what they said. " For us, if we just leave all the tracks on record enable when exporting them to a new Track, it works. Nothing special..." That reply was given at the (old) 5 tracks option - http://www.v-mp.com/Files/sc-acid-diagram.jpg Maybe they have a magically alterd Acid version? ;-) I am recording via soundcard now, I hope that I am not loosing any audio quality by that. Then I am happy.. I am not blaming anyone, I like both softwares. I just wish they worked better with each other. ;-) BTW; Is it possible to change Folder Track color in acid? V Message last edited on1/24/2007 6:30:54 AM byVMP. |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: pwppch
Date:1/24/2007 8:40:46 AM
They found a workaround that is obviously not what we intended. More power to them. No, there is no way to change a folder track's color. Peter |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: VMP
Date:1/24/2007 2:54:08 PM
Thanks so far SonyPCH, I will give you an update if anyone els has a possible solution. V |
Subject:RE: Sony please help! Rendering VST Instrumen
Reply by: Blues_Jam
Date:3/2/2007 2:44:14 AM
This is what they said. " For us, if we just leave all the tracks on record enable when exporting them to a new Track, it works. Nothing special..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please don't be insulted if this is a dumb and simplistic idea but they use the phrase "exporting them to a new Track". I assume that means using the "Render to new track" function under the "Tools" menu which creates a new audio track within your project. The new audio track is blank until you "Draw" or "Paint" it in which seems a bit dumb to me. Please understand that I am inexperienced with Acid and am only now looking at the Acid Music Studio 6 demo. Blues |