Subject:one sound I want to eliminate

Posted by: wynton

Date:12/11/2006 2:03:07 PM

I've converted about 2 dozen vinyl albums now, experimenting with reducing crackles and other sounds with SoundSoap II. I went from one extreme of taking too much noise out (and flattening the sound) to leaving most of it in. Basically, I decided I preferred a little noise and accuracy, to the flatter, but cleaner sound.

There is one persistent noise I would like to eliminate, if possible without being counterproductive. Specifically, I notice that there is a bit of distortion or kind of a fuzzy sound on some albums during saxophone soloes.

Is there a particular FX plugin I should try to use to eliminate that noise? Should I just be more aggressive with Soundsoap? Should I just accept that such a noise is unavoidable (if I want to recreate the vinyl sound)?

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: kbruff

Date:12/11/2006 2:25:49 PM

why arent you using sound forge -- it is really easier than acid when it comes to these tasks!

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: wynton

Date:12/11/2006 2:32:19 PM

A while ago, I explained at this forum how a retailor sold me on Acid. I then asked this forum whether the choice made sense for my particular needs, which really are limited to converting vinyl to digital format. I was persuaded that Acid was good, if not better, than Sound Forge for that purpose.

Anyway, the choice has been made. Are there no good options for me with Acid?

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: kbruff

Date:12/11/2006 5:43:34 PM

yes acid is good -- bla bla bla, but sound forge can has tools which allow you to edit the date with greater ease, and work with sound forge project files for better treatment of your data.

Please download and try sound forge 8.0d and see how much more power you have with an editor.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:12/12/2006 4:06:55 AM

Just wondering....

Some sax players have an airy, fuzzy sound when you listen to them up close. It has to do with air leaking. Anyway, could that be what you are hearing? Have you listen to any of your vinal music is a more modern format? Thay would give you a prespective.

...just wondering.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: wynton

Date:12/12/2006 5:17:11 AM

I don't think this issue is related to the air leaking you are mentioning. I just converted an old LP of Cannonball Adderly. WHile the vinyl was playing, I listened carefully to see if the noise was evident through the stereo. It was not. But playing it back through my headphones on the computer (via Music Studio 6), the sound was definitely there.

Two other thoughts occurred to me. This noise kind of sounds like small bits of distortion. Might the cause be the signal? I am using a Numark USB turntable and I never make an attempt to adjust the signal strength (because I don't know how to do so and I just assumed that the signal strength was always appropriate through that turntable).

I also wonder whether I need to "normalize" the recording. Does normalizing have any effect on reducing the noise, or does that merely make the recording level consistent? (I don't know how to normalize either, by the way).

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:12/12/2006 12:41:34 PM

normalizing will not affect the noise level.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:12/12/2006 5:29:03 PM

I'm not sure about the noise you are describing. Adding too much noise reduction via Sound Soap or any other noise reduction plugin can have negative side effects. I don't use Sound Soap, but use Sony's Noise reduction plugin. When I try to reduce the noise too far, I get a "glassy" type of sound side effect. So the sound you are describing could be a side effect of Sound Soap. Maybe you should try some other noise reduction plugins to see if you get better results. The nice thing about Acid is that you can put multiple FX's in the insert chain and be able to do quick A/B typle of listening to see which one, and which settings work best.

I also see you wrote in another post, that the "clip" indicator is lighting when you are recording. When that Clip indicator lights up (turns Red), that means you are distorting the audio at that point....so the sound you are hearing could very well be the distortion from having the input level up too high. You'll need to figure out how to reduce your input level setting with your sound card.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: wynton

Date:12/12/2006 6:19:22 PM

I'm actually unsure whether the "clip" indicator is signifying anything. It appears to me that the two bars are always below the "clip." But I always see the word "clip."

I know that the clip indicator is supposed to turn red when the level is too high, but because I'm color blind, I'm not sure if that's also happening. Aside from the color changing, how do I know for certain that I'm exceeding the proper level?

Meanwhile, I will try some other noise reduction tools. I've already had the experience of taking out too much noise and producing a flat sound. So I'm careful not to do that now. And if this particular noise is necessary to ensure a more natural overall sound, then I'll live with it.

edit: I just started another recording and this time notice that the word "clip" is not appearing. So I guess that whenver I see the word "clip" I am recording at too high a level?

second edit: On further thought, I don't think that the appearance of the word "clip" itself is significant. Because I know in the past I've seen that word appear even when the bars are way below the top. So I suspect that the appearance of the word "clip" must be due to something else I changed inadvertently.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: feign

Date:12/12/2006 6:43:25 PM

Wynton, you say the noise isn't heard through stereo speakers, but is heard through headphones attached to the computer. Isn't that comparing apples and oranges, equipment-wise? I wonder if you listen to the LP through your headphones if the same noise isn't evident. Headphones can make a big difference, especially if they're really good ones. On my Sennheiser HD600 headphones, I sometimes can hear in fine detail just how bad (and, conversely, how great) some 1960s recordings were mixed, and how noisy some of them were. Even many of the tape splices are clearly audible. None of this comes through on my living room speakers.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: wynton

Date:12/12/2006 6:58:30 PM

Feign,

You raise an excellent point, and I'm just going to have to do more studying to figure out if the headphones are the difference. I think I also heard this noise through the laptop speakers, but those are pretty poor so I didn't think it was relevant.

The catch with this process is that, on one hand all I really want to do is recreate the experience of listening to the vinyl in my living room through my stereo speakers. But there are definitely noises that don't bother me when I'm in my living room, but do grate on me a bit when I'm listening with earphones on my ipod. It is conceivable I'm just more sensitive to the noises when using headphones.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: wynton

Date:12/12/2006 7:05:55 PM

Quick little update: I just recorded Giant Steps (Coltrane) and I am positive that this time, at least, nothing was being "clipped."

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: feign

Date:12/13/2006 4:20:22 AM

Giant Steps is one great album! You're lucky to have it on vinyl. I tend to worry about some of the commercial CDs that are digital remasters of many of the classic jazz albums. Even top audio engineers are sometimes unable to control themselves with the tweaking in the remastering.

And if you're listening to these things on your iPod, you are most likely listening to lossy-compressed files, which will especially accentuate any high-end distortion, especially on instruments like cymbals and saxophones. When I plug in my other earphones, Etymotics, into my son's iPod, I find it to be unlistenable: all the lossy compression comes through in excruciating detail.

So, compare like with like. Sounds like an enjoyable and worthwhile project, to record all those great LPs.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: kbruff

Date:12/13/2006 4:30:11 AM

regardless of all this chit chat -- you should be using sound forge for audio restoration / treatment.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: wynton

Date:12/13/2006 4:58:18 AM

Feig, you say:

"And if you're listening to these things on your iPod, you are most likely listening to lossy-compressed files, which will especially accentuate any high-end distortion, especially on instruments like cymbals and saxophones. When I plug in my other earphones, Etymotics, into my son's iPod, I find it to be unlistenable: all the lossy compression comes through in excruciating detail."

I made the decision to use compressed files on the ipod simply because I wouldn't have the space to put all my albums onto it otherwise. But while I had heard the sound quality would be somewhat worse, I didn't know that high-end distortion in particular would be worse. Perhaps that is what I am experiencing too.

Subject:RE: one sound I want to eliminate

Reply by: feign

Date:12/13/2006 7:18:06 AM

IMHO, if your goal is to put things on the iPod, then you don't need to go through all the effort you're doing. If what you want is the best possible restoration of your vinyl LPs, I agree with others that you should use Sound Forge or Adobe Audition, which offer much finer control over the remastering than you can ever possibly do in Acid Music Studio. Then save everything in WAV format and burn to CD. You can download 30-day trial versions of both programs. Then you can use your Acid Music Studio to make your own original music mixes, as it's intended for.

Read up about compressed audio formats. If you want to save space, you need to learn about FLAC format. Not sure if you can put those on an iPod (I don't own one). FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) is the most popular of the lossless compression formats. It doesn't cut out and scramble the low and high frequencies the way lossy compression (MP3 and AAC) does. FLAC files are larger than MP3 or AAC files, but much smaller than uncompressed WAV format. Many players support FLAC, including some of the Creative portable music players.

MP3 and AAC (iPod default format) is fine for listening to an MP3 player or iPod in a noisy environment with cruddy headphones. But if you want to listen to fine music in all its pristine glory, you need uncompressed or, at least, lossless files like FLAC format. Cannonball Adderly and John Coltrane deserve the best.