Subject:ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loops

Posted by: Andreas S.

Date:10/25/2006 12:35:23 AM

So, usually I score for projects, but I decided to alter my workpath a bit: began using ACID as an aid to quick scoring. I'm writing original sections, and acidizing them, and then creating arrangements with ACID. No problem. I'm even cheating a bit and using some of the stock loops...neat. No problem.

Then, if I want to just export a section for the video editor(s), I just select the loop region and render it to a standard 44.1/16/stereo file. Great. Except the editors report, and I can confirm looking at the files in Sound Forge, that there is a wee blank bit at the start of the file. It's MAKING ME CRAZY!!! MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY!!!!!

If I clip the blank bit, the timing is just that much off. It's as if ACID isn't rendering the VERY start of the file...so when importing the project into Vegas the loops have a hiccup with unfixed files, or a bit of a push with the fixed file (which drives me and the editor nuts).

I've turned off the "quick fade edit edges" option in audio. I can confirm that this behaviour occurs in any size loop I create - 2, 4, 6, 8, any length bar.

The editors and I have even experimented with matching and unmatching tempos of the exported files and the video project to no avail.

My apologies if this is a known bug, but basically, it's brought the "new improved workpath" to a halt - back to scoring to time...which is fine, but so far the ACID experiment is just costing me time and money. argh.

I'll happily eat humble pie if someone can point out the error of my ways...PLEASE point me the errors of my ways...

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loops

Reply by: pwppch

Date:10/25/2006 7:56:53 AM

"a wee blank bit"

How much is this? (in samples if possible.)

What format are you rendering to? (Be specific)

Peter

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Andreas S.

Date:10/25/2006 9:02:18 AM

Rendering to standard uncompressed PCM WAV...44k/16bit/stereo.

I looked at the files again, and the blank portion is consistently .017 seconds long..enough to be a pop in a loop. If I cut it out it makes the file perfectly usable. I know there's extra data in a ACID loop file (for tempo, key etc).

Is the extra data appending as blank audio...even when importing in SF8 or Vegas 7? That would be really odd. If that IS the problem...then exporting the loops requires an extra step to open them in SF8, clip the blank bit, and re-save them (which I've noticed still preserves the ACIDity of the files - which makes the blank bit even stranger).

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: pwppch

Date:10/25/2006 9:28:26 AM

I am not able to reproduce this.

What I did:

- Three audio tracks
- added loops to each of the tracks
- Set the loop bar to cover from bar 3 through bar 7
- Render as to wave over the loop bar

I get a wave file with no silence as you indicated.

????

Peter

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Ben 

Date:10/25/2006 9:38:38 AM

I wonder if he's using some plugins that can cause problems at the very start of renders? I've found plugins with high latency can do this, such as the UAD plugins and SIR. They definitely make the beginning of the renderered audio blank for a couple of milliseconds. Not sure if they'd actually insert silence though...?

I have to get around this by ensuring my render region starts way before the audio, but that's not ideal in this situation.

Ben

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Andreas S.

Date:10/25/2006 10:02:16 AM

Hey guys. Thanks for the interesting feedback.

Ben, it looks like you hit the nail on the head. It never occured to me that a plug-in would cause latency when RENDERING.

I use Izotope Ozone 3 for mastering (quite a bit actually). So, I took a reverse and reverbed piano loop I made up, and rendered it sans effects. No problem. I could import into SF8 and the editor took it into Vegas 7...no problem just dropping and dragging the loop to the desired length.

Then I rendered the same file out with Ozone on the master output (just a generic mix EQ). Well, wouldn't you know, there's a wee little .017 sec gap at the start of the file. For comparison purposes, I actually took the unaffected file (which worked fine) into SF8 and simply applied the same Ozone setup and the result: IDENTICALLY MATCHED FILES.

So now that I know that Ozone has some issue with rendering, I'll have to sort though its settings to see if there is something that's causing it. I've done a quick one-at-a-time run-through to see if it's systemic or if it's one of the six effects/processes that's the problem. At first blush the only effect/process that DOESN'T cause SOME sort of gap is the reverb. Everything else causes a space, though never larger that .017 seconds.

Mystery solved. Now I just have to get on Izotope's case and find out why their data handling is so sloppy.

Again, thanks for the great input! You guys should do this for a living. ;-)

-Andreas

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Ben 

Date:10/26/2006 2:47:15 PM

No problem Andreas - glad I could help. If I get bored of music production I'll apply for a job at Sony tech support ;)

Ben

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Andreas S.

Date:10/27/2006 11:04:53 AM

I was actually thinking more along the lines of pro-production rather than tech support. It would be a waste of talent (but then again, I'm sure you already do this most of the time).

I've since discovered a problem with a project. I've finished three...but the fourth crashes 8% seconds into the render (regardless of file type). I've turned tracks on/off, removed plug-ins, but the file just won't render without crashing out Vegas. Sent a copy of the error data to SONY Tech Support. We'll see how it goes.

At least this time I KNOW it's a problem...not just a phantom problem created by other software. Speaking of which, a quick browse around the Izotope website shows they're aware of the "problem" (they don't call it a problem - it's the result of their software's complex processes blah blah blah). There IS a fix called "delay compensation" in Ozone...but the only program that actually can co-compensate (since the internal doesn't quite do the whole job) is Audition. While I love the low latency...the interface and workflow in Audition is an utter mess.

Anyway...thanks again.

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Ben 

Date:10/27/2006 2:02:41 PM

Ah, music and audio production is what I do for a living :)

Yep, delay compensation definitely sounds like the issue. Vegas and ACID do compensate for plugin latency, but seemingly not always that well. I think (though really don't know for sure) that this is also the cause of the problems with the UAD plugins.

Glad you've got to the bottom of it anyway.

Ben

Subject:RE: ACID 6 BUG? Problems exporting clean loop

Reply by: Andreas S.

Date:10/28/2006 12:50:25 AM

Actually, the quick and easy workflow of SF8 saves me a lot of time. I can chop the .017 sec extra if I REALLY need a clean loop.

I actually got ACID to avoid the nightmare of audio rights. Snipping little clips of pop tunes is a nice idea...but when producing content for live venues, the web, AND radio....well you can just hear the lawyers licking their chops.

The problem with the "Rewire Crash" is a bit perplexing at the moment -- even more frustrating because it's crashing on the render of a really good loop!

In any case...I'm finding ACID a much more efficient and fun way to get tracks produced (I always wondered how they did all those groovy moody tracks for CSI - now I think I know). I have current copies of Fruity Loops (which is good if you can THINK like the program), Project 5 (better, but not a lot), etc. My workflow usually involves Cakewalk Sonar for scoring/creating the bed tracks and loops (and the Sonitus bundle is good...and there are lots of other goodies that I haven't even started playing with in v6 yet)...and recording them. Edit in SF8...import to ACID and then noodle away.

The plug-in bug is ultimately a hassle because the code should work only with actual audio. Now being a non-code-monkey layman, I can only imagine why a plug-in like Izotope would add audio on a render....my guess is that it pre-processes a fwe hundred (or thousand depending on bit depth) audio to give the perception of low latency. Someday ASIO compatability will actually be solid (as solid as my MOTU Ultralite hopefully) and I don't mind a bit of lag between meters and sound...90% of the time I close my eyes and listen anyway.

Ah to be back in the days of 2" tape and ribbon mics....when the technology was "simple." ;-)