I have a Sony PD170. Many have said that HD downconverted to SD still looks better.
I decided on the PD170 because of color and low light (1 lux). New is $3K used
around $2K (USD).

The company I work for is looking for HD cameras now. I dream of XDCAM such as
the Sony F350 but that is 3-4 times your budget range.

SD-DVCAM

Sony D-30 (3)
Sony TRV-900 (1)
Panasonic DVX100 (1)

SD miniDV here with a pair of-JVC 550Us.
3 1/2" chips, great low-light capability and studio capabilities made this an obvious choice for my needs (community college).

Mike

FIRST THINGS FIRST - What do you do?/ plan to do? that can affect what you need/what you should get more than just about anything.

If you're going HD, The XL2 is not an option as it is SD only but with a native 16x9 chip.

There is an XL series that is HD, but I think it is out of your price range. As for the HVX, my suggestion is to stear clear, poor integration into Vegas, having to deal with switching the P2 Cards on a regular basis, and if you haven't got a laptop, toss in several hundred more dollars for either an HDD that can load the cards, or a laptop to drop to. Not to mention the fact that the HVX is primarily a 720 geared HD source. The chips are barely above SD in actual resolution and they stretch from there. (I was pretty disapointed by the HVX personally as I am a DVX100A owner and a big fan).

I am keeping my eye on the new CMOS chipped camera that Sony just released, I think it's the VX-1 (can't remember) it's not on the market yet either (coming soon). It does overcranking however I read in a review that the overcranking lowers the resolution slightly (at least I thought I did, I can't see how it would maintain the same datarate and double the framerate without doing something of that sort). Either way. The camera is running new CMOS technology and it's a full resolution chip (the only full rez chip in its price range in point of fact, which is around 5K I think/am guessing).

The new sony (still coming) is where I think I'm going to hedge my bets, at least as far as I can see. I am going to watch the new GL2 HD successor, and see how that does, and then there's the matter of the HD successor to the XL2, but this too is out of my price range as well :(

the Z-1's are still good I'm sure, but depending on what you do, you may want to make sure that you have Phantom power and XLR inputs. That makes all the dif. for me.

So I suggest the new Sony or the new Cannon HD successor to the GL2 (having no personal experience with either). I'm particularly taken with this Sony though, it sounds like it's got it going on, and it's a full size sensor (not to mention that it has Component output, so if you do studio shooting, you can run it into a decklink card and capture HD component uncompressed footage (would be mighty handy if you are going to do much keying).

Dave

Dave,

You shouldn't lose resolution in the V1u's slow motion mode. I believe it writes to buffer memory first, then to tape. I think that's why you are limited to about 6 seconds of real-time slow motion shooting. I'd guess you would have to remember to light for the higher shutter speed, though.

Edit: I'm still shooting with my trusty VX-2000 and another smaller 3 chip SD camera, because I don't currently have a market for HD (or the time to create one). If I had to purchase a new camera in the next 3 months it would be a Z1 or a V1, though. I have been pretty happy with the Sony cams I have owned.

I'm milking my 3 VX2000's until they die. I shoot a lot of wedidngs, and they're ideal for low light situations.

I'm glad I've waited to upgrade to HD. My choices will be better, as will the prices. And the fact that only about 1 out of 10 clients ask about HD makes it well worth waiting it out.

DVX100a

Frigid makes a bunch of good points. I have a JVC GY-HD100 and have been really happy with it - I will try and address your questions in order below:

"For the record, I'm looking primarily for a camera with 1) solid support for both HD and SD formats"

I think all the cheap HD cams do this well

"2) reasonably easy integration with Vegas,"

The Sony stuff and the JVC GY-HD100 work great with Vegas.

"3) ease of use in the field (i.e., prefer not to dig around in menus to change important settings"

As someone who has shot with a standard camera for years the layout of the JVC works really well for me. I love how eveything is in the right place and for run and gun stuff it is my favorite - can't beat the focus assist!

4) good build quality,

This is kind of a tricky one - The two cams I have used a fair bit, the Z1 and the JVC both have some issues. Have had a back focus issue with the Z1 once, it's an easy fix but has to be done by a service technician. Also I have seen a Z1 croak on a couple of occasions - these were both rental units and I can't quite remember how the issue was resolved. I think one had to be sent back to Sony.

The JVC has a rather flimsy viewfinder assembly that should be treated with care. They are being fixed under warranty but they seem to develop cracks at the right angle bend of the eyepiece rather easily - mine is just starting to crack. It doesn't affect the function of the viewfinder but if the crack goes all the way through I guess the viefinder can pop off occasionally. i'm going to send mine in pretty soon for the fix.

Remember this is just my personal experience - by all accounts these cams are pretty solid. Even the most expensive cameras have problems.

"5) a camera that, technically speaking, has a good chance of avoiding obsolecence for a while."

Good luck with that one! Maybe the Red camera....

And now for my virtually worthless 02. :)

Personally I think all these inexpensive HD cams (Z1, etc, JVC, HVX, Canon) look amazing - the most important thing is to find the one that works for you because they all have different strengths. To me, and I'm surprised people don't talk about this more, the important thing is learning to shoot with an HD camera!

Focus becomes a whole new world, depth of field, working within the sweet spot of the lens, using ND filters to keep you at the right iris and exposure. Even using high end DV cameras does not prepare one for the world of HD - it is much more of a film like shooting experience and there is no place to hide. Especially with these cheaper cams - they can be made to look amazing but if you don't know what you are doing - it can be cringeworthy.

I guess my point is the folks that are looking at a standard def cam and an HDV cam usually are comparing just features and cost -vs- future proofing. I think the important thing to consider is how soon do you wan't to be developing your HD camera chops.

Boy, this got to be rather rambling...Sorry....Oh, and just my .02 - your mileage may vary.

SONY DCR-VX2000
Tom

Sony Z1P. Just upgraded from VX2000. I primarily do underwater video and couldn't wait for V1 housings to become available/mature. Plus the Z1 has PAL/NTSC which helps if I get hired for some jobs, and it arguably better in low light than V1.

Frigid,

I do corporate projects, mostly small one-man jobs, but I also enjoy making creative videos that would benefit from the more film-like capabilities of the newer HD cams.

When I bought my VX2000, it was a much simpler decision. It was either the VX2000 or the XL1. Their pros and cons were pretty obvious, and the price points were different enough that the decision was, for me, fairly easy.

But now ... so many players, supporting so many formats, using multiple types of media ... I'm just not even sure where to start.

Does anyone have any comments on the Calumet rep's opinion that HDV is kind of a dead-end technology (he didn't say that, but that's what I inferred). He seemed to think that aggressive compression schemes came at quite a cost: 1) color reproduction, and 2) editing working and speed. He seemed to think a really good SD camera had as much merit as an HDV one.

I suppose I just need to rent a few of these guys and see what they're like. In the meantime, I really appreciate everyone's insights. They really do help me form a better picture of where to go with my dollars.

well, I'd say that to infer that a solid SD camera (at quite likey 2-3 times the price) is going to reproduce the quality of an HDV camera could quite possibly be true. But I'd say that at 2-3 times the price you would be in a different market.

My primary grievence, however, is that the XD Cam HD is probably the best format for the money out there. (I'm refering to recording in the 50Mbit stream, I think the 25Mbit is pretty similar to HDV and I might be wrong in that assumption) However XD Cam HD is at a good bit more money than we're talking with HDV. As far as the quality of an HDV cam or a P2 Card Cam, I don't think there is much of a question. I got my hands on some HVX footage shot for keying, that was such a horrendus mess that I won't screw with it anymore. The fact that the HVX is tapeless is a plus, or at least it will be. Recording for 12 min at a time will work alright for corp, and training style vids, but the way I see it is that If I put 5K into an HVX I'm more or less limiting myself to that line of work. As much as I'd like to do that, I'm afraid I don't have that luxury in such a small market with such customer scarcity. Recording speaking events, special events, etc... (I generally steer clear of shooting weddings if I can help it) is a potential source of income I don't want to say no to. The P2 cards will eventually get enough storage to be a viable long term recording solution, but they're not right now, and that chip is so stretched that I can't use it for 1080 really.

I'm not really doing that much HD shooting right now, but I look at downconverted HD>SD and I can see such a difference that I'm contemplating ditching my DVX for this new cam when it comes out, because you can compete with a higher priced SD competitor with a lower priced cam. And an overcrank in cam would come into play on some of the work I do. Heck, on just about any job there's a way you *could* use it.

Long ramble short (too late for that) I think that HDV is the poormans HD. So unless you can squeeze out enough for an XD HD camera (and don't need the form factor of the smaller cams) it's the best we can do (currently I really don't even include P2 as an option at the moment - please do not take offense at my comments if you have an HVX, just pass me off as a no name nut :D ). In the future (and I'm talking a few years) P2 may be where it's at (on a different set of chips). but for now, in the sub 5-7K range, I think that HDV is the only full service solution.

Dave

SInce i do mostly work narrative in its nature i care most about quality and HVX200 is a total winner. At first scheptical i notices so much advantages with this little cam that this IS the choice of low budget filmmaking. Latitude of this camera is absolutely amazeing -- gone are the days when you saw zebra set at 100% you knew you are hitting white. Not only that but the fall of is so gradual and color you get... Wow, WOW! JVC and Canon would be comers up with Sony trailing behind. Again as it was said before it really depends what you need it for.

since i 'retired', pd170. shoot doco's, string for abc tv (australia), do tvc, etc., find it more than adequate for my clients and myself.

if hd ever takes off seriously (ie. people are willing to pay for my investment), then i'll jump. till then 4:3 sd.

leslie

3 FX1s

PD 170 - upgraded a couple of years ago from the 150. I shoot lots of corporate videos and don't need extra lighting for anything - thus far.

Z1U - the picture quality coupled with the feature set is awesome.

Z1U--Even a Dork (like me) can get outstanding results. Best auto focus I have used and the color rendition and latitude are almost always "spot on". Exceptional low light and back light performance. The zoom control is outstanding. (nNo, they didn't pay me to say this)

JJK

Wait a minute!
Mark Foley?

We're shooting with a Z1U and a PD170 right now. We mostly do weddings and events. Both cameras have proved excellent in their own ways. The 170 is a great camera and its only fault if you could call it that is that it is SD. Otherwise a real workhorse.

The Z1 is also excellent but out of the chute shows some of the limitations of its imagers and HDV . There are more apparent tradeoffs when you get HD from a Z1. IMHO the 170 is better at SD than the Z is at HD. The Z1 on the other hand shoots fantastic SD (downconverted from HD via Vegas) and blows the 170 away in picture clarity and 16:9 capability. Shot transition is a great feature as well and we use it all the time for what we do. Believe it or not I actually like the additional weight and size of the Z1. It gives me more stability while shooting. The Z is very well balanced with a 970 on the back.

The V1 looks to be a great camera but I think the low light response will keep it from being very popular in the wedding/event business. The Z1's low light response is about as low as I would go for the quality we need. Any more noise and you're really pushing it.

John

Frigid,

When you say:

"I'm contemplating ditching my DVX for this new cam when it comes out."

Are you referring to the forthcoming Sony V1?

Scott

yep, of all the cams out there, the V1 seems to fit my needs the best of any of them, as far as tape based recording goes, I may just get an External HD that I can record too either as well or as a primary device.

Dave