Subject:problems with pro 6 - wish list

Posted by: ghanedan

Date:8/24/2006 2:55:19 PM

I recieved the box 2 days ago and here is my opinions and wishes:

1- In year 2006 I cannot beleive that a sequencer/workstation is present without a "count in N measures" metronome. It is a MUST if you record something at the very beginning of a track and I don't want to wait until the next release..

2- Seeing that MIDI capabilities are still improving I think SONY must consider free upgrades to new releases to registered users ( I paid for the two former releases and most midi problems are still unresolved)

3- The midi quantization window MUST have an UNDO button inside.

4- It's almost impossible to route midi-outs to individual harware sound modules. During real-time play, altough each track is configured to different sound modules, all modules play at the same time.
On this earth not every sound source is a VST plug-in and also all hardware sound sources don't have to have a keyboard attached.
Most people use ONE master keyboard and rest is keyboardless-sound modules so there should be a way to trigger different out-ports from the same IN-port without changing the channel.
It is odd that one track on ACID triggers every other output destination just because the input port is the same..

5- I deserve to double-click on midi clip and see the event editor. For any musician who ever recorded something on any sequencer, double-clicking on a midi event should result an event editor. We need this..

6- 20 years ago I had a yammy psr series keyboard and it had a MERGE-IN MIDI and OVERDUB record function on its sequencer. Sometimes yu have to overdub, let acid give me the opportunity...

7- Sometimes the recorded midi pieces don't playback !! I couldn't find any solution to this. I'm not using any soft synths, all setup is hardware so what acid has to do is JUST send midi messages to my synth ? Is it too much for me to want acid to send what I recorded back to the synth ? Isn't it the way sequencers work ???


( and I think customers of ACID pro deserve these "standart-in-any-sequncer" capabilities in a FREE upgrade..a FREE upgrade please)

Thanks

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: drew_

Date:8/24/2006 4:13:30 PM

Welcome along!!

I came to the conclusion that ACID Pro 6 could not actually have been targetted at anyone who had previously used a sequencer such as Cubase, Logic etc etc.

There's just too much missing on both MIDI and Audio fronts for it to be taken seriously (and I really, really wanted to move to using ACID for everything rather than Cubase & Vegas which I use at present)

Whilst there are some great editing tools (and "toys") in there, there are many basics hidden away or just not there. As well as points 1,3 and 5 which bug me immensely I also can't believe quantizing is so fiddly. Right-click, select "MIDI Processes & Filters" and select "Preserve Duration" and the time division every time in order to replicate what you can do with a single keystroke in Cubase. Then there appears to be no "undo quantize".

In case you haven't seen, "Merge MIDI" is available as an toolbar icon but to have to select that every time you start the app is frustrating, as is having to re-select the same tab on the plug-in chooser each time you open it.

I did like the velocity stems - especially because it was often the only way I could see where notes where (turning off Inline MIDI temporarily helps - but sadly the context menu affects all tracks, which really doesn't seem to fit what context menus are supposed to be about)

Even great ideas like MIDI pitch shift make no sense when you try to use them.. the notes change but stay in the same position on the piano roll and there's no visual indication whatsoever that they are transposed.

It's also difficult to see at a glance which tracks are armed compared with other sequencers and it makes you look slow when working with musicians because you have to go through manually switching them on & off - that among other things sent me straight back to Cubase before the demo ended.

Vegas users were promised ACID Pro 6 would meet their expectations in audio editing & manipulation yet you can't even drag audio between tracks.

ACID Pro 6 is supposed to be a DAW with full-fledged sequencer functionality yet you can't even Undo in the bizarrely named Clip Properties window - nor does the space bar play through the contents of that window.

Don't even get me started on the hidden away Clip Pool

Build 305 already and just look at the list of bugs in the "problems with pro 6" thread.. I'll bet you're not the only one who wants free upgrades!

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/24/2006 8:39:14 PM

I will assume that you have downloaded the latest update to ACID 6.

1- This will be addressed in a future version of ACID.

2 - What MIDI problems are unresolved? Are you talking about bugs or features that you desire that are not part of ACID 6?

3- Undo is global in ACID. Ctrl-Z undos any quantization you apply. You can also just click on the undo button on the main toolbar. I don' t see how having a Undo button on the quantize page would make it any easier.

4- You can rout the input from a single MIDI input to any output. The auto routing mode uses the track focus to determine what gets the MIDI. If you want to control where MIDI input goes, you can set up the tracks how you want.

>>Most people use ONE master keyboard and rest is keyboardless-sound modules so there should be a way to trigger different out-ports from the same IN-port without changing the channel.<<

How can one MIDI channel be routed independently to multiple destinations such that only one device plays with out the user specifying which external device is active. This is exactly what our auto-routing does.

>>It is odd that one track on ACID triggers every other output destination just because the input port is the same..<<

I am not seeing this behavior unless I specifically configure each track to do this. The default is auto routing.

Simple Example:

- Single MIDI input active. A contorl keyboard is connected. The device is sending on channel 1

- Track 1 : routed to Yamaha MU80 on channel 4. A brass patch is active
- Track 2 : routed to Proteus/1 on channel 2 , a piano patch is active
- Track3 : routed to a VSTi , a drum kit is active
- Track 4 : routed to the Yamaha MU80 on channel 7, a violin patch is active

Track one selected. I play my external keyboard. I hear only the Yamaha brass patch
Select Track 3. Play the keyboard. I hear only the VSTi
Select Track 2: Play the keyboard. I hear only the Proteus Piano patch
Select Track 5: Play the keyboard. I hear only the Yamaha MU80 violin

Additionally, you can set up note ranges or to recieve input from any channel, or specifically filter out specific channels.
You can build a split keyboard range that goes do different devices.
You can specifiy specific channels on input are routed to specific devices.

How do you want it to work? I really want to know. Can you give me an example set up and work scenario?

5- ACID's inline editing is the main editing mode. It is just a "G" on your keyboard away. Double click has always set the selection/loop bar in ACID. I can see how this could be a work flow improvement. Still, I can hear the complaints from users that have grown to expect the behavior as it is today. Make you happy, and others will be upset.

You suggestion will be considered for a future version of ACID. I can see how this could be a work flow improvement.

6- ACID has a MIDI merge record mode as well as a loop record mode that allows you to build up overdubs as you seem to want. This mode also works in step record.

Perhaps I don't understand what you want. Could you explain why the MIDI merge record mode does not solve this?


7- Sometimes the recorded midi pieces don't playback !! I couldn't find any solution to this. I'm not using any soft synths, all setup is hardware so what acid has to do is JUST send midi messages to my synth ? Is it too much for
me to want acid to send what I recorded back to the synth ? Isn't it the way sequencers work ???

This has beein reported by others. So far we have been unable to reproduce the problem here. We are trying to determine the cause of this, but so far have not found anythings specific.


>>( and I think customers of ACID pro deserve these "standart-in-any-sequncer" capabilities in a FREE upgrade..a FREE upgrade please)<<

We have never provided free upgrades to new versions. I can pretty much assure you that this wont happen in the future.

Thanks
Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/24/2006 8:55:53 PM

>>I also can't believe quantizing is so fiddly

How is it fiddly? Please explain.

>>Right-click, select "MIDI Processes & Filters" and select "Preserve Duration" and the time division every time in order to replicate what you can do with a single keystroke in Cubase.<<

So what you want is to have the Quantize remember its last settings and the have the ability to apply Quantize using a keyboard short cut with out having to open the Process and Filters window?

A very reasonable feature request.

>>Even great ideas like MIDI pitch shift make no sense when you try to use them.. the notes change but stay in the same position on the piano roll and there's no visual indication whatsoever that they are transposed.<<

This is a problem. We are looking at this issue.

>>you can't even Undo in the bizarrely named Clip Properties window <<

I assume you are talking about the Clip Properites view for MIDI clips?

Bizzare name? Why do you say that?

Undo is global. CTRL-Z undos the edits you make here.

>>nor does the space bar play through the contents of that window<<

The clip editors are for the clips, not the main time line. The space bar previews the clip when this window has focus.
If you want to play the main time line when in the clip editor you can use the F12 key (or use the keyboard maps to assign it to another key.)

>>Don't even get me started on the hidden away Clip Pool

Clip pools are track specific. Double clicking on a track' header opens the track properites.

How would it be less hidden in your mind? Do you want a global clip pool vs the track specific pool? Please, tell me how you think we can improve this.

Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/25/2006 12:36:48 AM

Hi Peter,
Thnks for your reply; let me clarify something; I am also a software developer and am into electronic music for a long time so I both understand your view and acid users views. I must note I decided to switch to ACID from Cakewalk SONAR because of ACID's "finally" midi abilities reached to a certain level on paper.

I will try to be as specific as possible;

"1- This will be addressed in a future version of ACID. "

Thanks.

"2 - What MIDI problems are unresolved? Are you talking about bugs or features that you desire that are not part of ACID 6?"

What you expect even from the simplest of any sequencer is to playback the midi notes you have recorded. Acid fails in doing this. I cannot accept this even as a bug. This is a main functionality. When focused on, the track is reciving input and producing midi output, but when I press play, the recorded midi notes don't produce any output. (They appear visually tough)

This situation is not the default behaviour, but it happens, and my opinion is this weird situation is related with a track that is recorded over and over after deleting the contents. You know, right clicking on a midi clip opens a list of formerly recorded clips of the same track; When you select a previous record the sound comes back, and when you switch to your original record the sound SOMETIMES comes back.
Let it be a clue for the developers out there; I am sure that this problem is related with the midi clip history.

This is an unresolved problem IMO.

"3- Undo is global in ACID. Ctrl-Z undos any quantization you apply. You can also just click on the undo button on the main toolbar. I don' t see how having a Undo button on the quantize page would make it any easier."

Yes you are right, undo is global and is applicable to quantizing. But, while you are working in the quantize menu, (I prefer using mouse rather than keyboard), if you switch back to main screen and click "undo", if you are monitoring the record at the same time, there is an undesirable crackle/glitch produced in audio.
You may be right in this point, it is a design matter. But one must feel s/he has quantisized something visually. So for instance, putting a label in the quantize box which notifies user that the quantizizing has happened or rolled back will be a great psychological plus to ACID, I feel the lack of this.

4- How do you want it to work? I really want to know. Can you give me an example set up and work scenario?

Yes this is the most critical point;

a) A Roland Fantom X6 is connected to midi input A and midi output A
b) An e-mu Xtreme Lead (XL-1) is connected to midi input B and midi output B

a) Track1 is configured to receive from Fantom and output to Fantom (channel1)
b) Track2 is configured to receive from Fantom and output to XL-1 (channel 1)

Result: Track2 is rightly playing XL-1 sounds but Track1 is BOTH playing Fantom and XL-1 when focused on.
This is one of the most strange behaviours I have encountered in a midi sequncer because on Track1 input or outputs of XL1 is NOT mentioned anywhere.

I have tried all combinations on the routing part. The result is the same. The input is directed to both midi outs.

Can you please give the exact configuration in this situation ? I dont want to assign a different channel to XL-1, because the midi out port is completely different, so I should be able to work in this configuration just using the track focus changes.
(Note: One might ask why do you enable the inputs from XL-1 ? I have to enable midi input of XL-1 because I record the knob-outs of xl-1 casually)

"5- ACID's inline editing is the main editing mode. It is just a "G" on your keyboard away. Double click has always set the selection/loop bar in ACID. I can see how this could be a work flow improvement. Still, I can hear the complaints from users that have grown to expect the behavior as it is today. Make you happy, and others will be upset. "

Ok computer scince has resolved this "Make you happy, and others will be upset" problem decades ago :) Just allow USER to configure the default behaviour. Put an option in the preferences to configure what will happen when double-clicked a midi clip...This is how good software ought to work.

"6- ACID has a MIDI merge record mode as well as a loop record mode that allows you to build up overdubs as you seem to want. This mode also works in step record."

I must missed that. This is my fault.

7- About playback problem, I mentioned already.

CONCLUSION:
I would rather make music in my limited time than to complain about my gear. So why I write here is I love acid, I love the design but SONY must respect to regisitered customers in the upgrade fees. If SONY cooperates with ACID users my decision is to produce on ACID for the forthcoming versions, but if such absurd bugs ( I mentioned, other people mentioned) are
unresolved, or resolved for 200$ upgrade I won't be the next buyer of the ACID 7. We work like software testers here, so pay a little attention to our budgets.

Final wish: I would like to send MTC output to more than one midi out. This is not possible in all sequencers but is a very usefull thing and ACID should have this property. By the way..why not place the quantize dialog option on a right click on midi clip ??

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/25/2006 4:49:28 AM

and DREW I totally agree with you;
Let me add two tihngs for instance;

1- Why must I select generate MTC everytime I open Acid ? Why isn't this property embedded in the project and automatically activated when I open that project ? (this is the case with SONAR)

2- Like you said, why isn't a "unarm all tracks" button present ? Why isn't a color label warning that at least one track is armed somewhere present ? (this is the vase with SONAR)

I can make a longer list here. But on my previous messages I think I stressed out the most important aspects that are lacking in ACID, which makes it impossible for me to compose. You may buy a car, it may have a disturbing sound in one of its doors, but this doesn't affect the overall trips aim or safety with that car. But if the car engine stops at every 10 minutes this vechile cannot be used as a "car".
So the problems I mentioned makes it impossible for me to use ACID as a MIDI sequencer and must be immediately cured.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: drew_

Date:8/25/2006 7:31:05 AM

1 - glad to hear it Peter!
The count-in (as I see it) should be a configurable number of bars of metronome click before going into record (or play) mode from current point - not necessarily just bar 1 since sometimes it's desirable for musicians to drop in to any point in the project without hearing the previous bars.

Important implementation point!.. MIDI & audio played *slightly* before the end of the count-in should be captured - you should be able to drag the start to include it if desired. "Missing the first note" was a problem with Cubase's count-in many years ago so I hope an ACID one would avoid that pitfall from the start!


2- for me the main ACID MIDI issues were..
"randomly not playing" which I understand has the classic nightmare bug characteristic of being an intermittent problem which not everyone gets!

I use a MIDIsport4x4 and when this happens there is no output activity on the interface - sadly since there is no MIDI in/out activity display in ACID there is no way to tell if it's the app or Windows that is "forgetting" to send.

Playback to external hardware would go out of sync after a single iteration of the loop - the timing drifts in & out and makes it impossible to play over. Again I know this didn't happen for everyone.

Cubase allows me to adjust timings & switch on & off MIDI ports but ACID allows no such control. Also I was surprised to see that opening ACID as a Rewire slave after using as a host gave me "MIDI port unavailable" error.. surely that shouldn't be "unexpected" as the dialog suggests!

Inline editing functionality is great - really - I miss it now I'm back to Cubase, but every time I zoomed out I would have to reposition the piano roll to see the note-range I had been working with - it surely shouldn't just leave it pinned to the top end! That's why I ended up using the Clip Properties window, but then there was no Undo functionality.

Finally the quantize - if there needs to be a settings window for this it should surely be dockable and there should still be a single-keystroke to apply quantization with the current settings.


3 - "Undo Quantize" is not related to global Undo. It's a feature to restore selected notes to their original, played timings - which must depend on how the app stores note info. It looks like ACID's quantization is destructive (merely moving the notes to quantized positions and discarding original timings).

4 - ghanedan - over to you!


5 - Why not have an "On double-click ..." drop-down in the editing preferences to choose the action taken? Select loop region, clip properties, processes & filters, enable inline editing etc.

For me the main problem with the inline editing toggle is that it's all or nothing, rather than on a per-track basis (via the context menu).



Above all though, if you hit Undo and it removes the penultimate action but leaves the most recent then it's pretty much impossible to trust the app for MIDI use. Am I the only one to have had problems with this?

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/25/2006 7:53:31 AM

**************************************************************************
Note about the playback problem: Like _drew, I also use maudio midisport4x4

this might be a clue if you are interested tough
*****

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/25/2006 3:54:23 PM

>>Put an option in the preferences to configure what will happen when double-clicked a midi clip...This is how good software ought to work. <<

I compeletly disagree. To many options muddle software.

Our job is not to provide an infinite number of configurations.

What you want is the muddled UI and endless configuration that Cubase and SONAR present. Sorry, but that is not our design philosphy. I appreciate that some users don't like this. However, we present a unified design and approach. That is unlikely to change.

To be clear, we are actively squashing as many problems and bugs as we can. These types of updates will be made as free updates to all ACID 6 users.

However, new features rarely make it into updates. Many of the items you are concerned about are new features or alternative functionality to ACID. If your type of requests are part of ACID, the will not be part of an update, but a new version. New versions are never free.

Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/25/2006 11:54:45 PM

"What you want is the muddled UI and endless configuration that Cubase and SONAR present"

I may understand your point of view. ACID, during its early days was very successfull by the virtue of simplicity. So when I first heard ACI was integrating MIDI, I thought finally the "über-sequencer" was being developed.

But you now the limited functionality of MIDI disappointed me so much.

I have a couple of questions:

1- I experience constant crashes working with ACID6b. Everytime I have to reboot my computer. What must I do to generate a report to send ACID support when a crash occurs ? Because crashes occur in many different situations.

2- Does Sony plan to support and develop MIDI ? For instance midi effects: arpeggiator, echo etc. For instance logical editing for midi (delete all notes that have a constant property and add velocity to remaining n notes etc.etc. ?)

This question is critical, because if MIDI won't be supported and developed, there is no point in switching to ACID as a DAW in my opinion or case.

Somewhere in this Forum I had read that you answered a question as "midi makes things complicated".

What dou you think for instance a PowerTracksProAudio budget sequencer user, reading your comment, think about Acid? What kind of humors or jokes can he plan to a dedicated Acid user like me ?

So: I totally agree that elimination of bugs must be presented as patches and new features must be presented as **reasonably priced** upgrades. But new features must be true innovations. You know, adding a count-in to the metronome IMO won't be an innovation. This is a need for decades.

I feel that in sake of not complicating the software, designers out there try to add as little property as possible to the new versions. But then how can I explain the bugs and constant crashes even that little has been added.

Finally let me quote:
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is not technology" - ray kurzweil

I just want to feel that magic in ACID's next release..

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: Lossl ben Hossl

Date:8/26/2006 12:25:06 AM

while i agree to some extent, i also think there should be some small issues (from the required programming scale) adressed immediately like some of the already mentioned midi stuff, missing drag & drop of clips between tracks, or a phase invert button... i don´t know all the other hosts, but from what i gather most receive quite a few new or enhanced features within one version for free along with bug fixes. even the really "big" companies do that

i am not asking to implement a completely overhauled chopper or a freeze function in version 6, even though i am pretty sure some companies would do

acid is going to loose more and more ground to other applications if sony keeps up this behaviour.
it would also sound rather silly to advertise some of acid 7 features on the box with something like "now features drag & drop between clips, count in metronome and a phase invert button" (even though i am sure one can re-formulate it to make it sound more ground breaking ;) )
in my oppinion "stuff" like this belongs in an update, not a new version

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/26/2006 2:44:53 AM

I agree with ben_Hossl

I doesn't make sense to advertise ACID as "professional music workstation"
It must be called "simple music workstation" according to the sony design "philosophy".

Any sequencer that has a "workstation" tag must have robust MIDI capabilities. The vital problems mentioned before must be added to acid 6 C or D.

I don't say that ACID must be a complicate software like a spacecraft navigation software (tough in some way professional just means this). But it MUST be robust. I MUST depend on it.

----

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/26/2006 7:22:41 AM

>>1- I experience constant crashes working with ACID6b. Everytime I have to reboot my computer. What must I do to generate a report to send ACID support when a crash occurs ? Because crashes occur in many different situations.<<

We do everything we can to solve problems and bugs. This is why we release updates. If you have specific bugs, please provide as much detail and focus on the bugs and how you reproduce them. Many times users assume that we work exactly the same way as they do and have everything configured exactly the same. Many times what is omitted from the problem description is where the key is in reproducing the problem.


>>2- Does Sony plan to support and develop MIDI ? For instance midi effects: arpeggiator, echo etc. For instance logical editing for midi (delete all notes that have a constant property and add velocity to remaining n notes etc.etc. ?)<<

Of course we plan on supporting and developing MIDI. I'd think this would be very clear from the changes we made from ACID 5 to ACID 6.

I can not comment on the specifics of what we are planning to do.

Your specific request has been discussed and requested by others - though maybe not exactly how you have requested it.

>>This question is critical, because if MIDI won't be supported and developed, there is no point in switching to ACID as a DAW in my opinion or case.<<

I can't see how you get to the negative feeling from the current ACID 6 release. ACID 6 is a major upgrade and includes many of the most requested features.

Does it have every possible MIDI feature that other sequencers with 10 years of MIDI dev have?

Of course not.

Can more be done?
Sure.

I am very aware of what needs to be done with MIDI. We know what we had to skip over for this version.

I understand that you want it all now. That is just not the reality.

We know what is missing, and are learning what users like and don't like.

Just like our other products, features progress with each new version: so will our MIDI features.

You have to decide whether ACID 6 meets your needs today.

Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/26/2006 7:36:27 AM

>>The vital problems mentioned before must be added to acid 6 C or D. <<

Every attempt to fix bugs will be made. Please help us to resolve these by providing details. Please contact me directly if you believe we can better resolve these problems.

I have made it very clear what issues we are working on and what issues fall into new features. You should have no expectations that a feature you desire - for whatever reason - will show up in a 6.0 update. This will not happen.

Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/26/2006 12:05:10 PM

Hi Peter,

So I think we have come to a valuable conclusion with this long form topic;

I think two discrete tihngs have been discussed;

1- The current bugs of ACID6b:
--- You say all will be fixed with patches
This was what I wanted to hear. I insist on ACID on my new project and no sequencer else. So I will be very glad to determine these annoying crash bugs and playback problem, I will be positive here and provide as much info as I can. Please provide the communication plan and how to report.

2- The current MIDI capabilities of ACID6, and future possibilities.
--- You say MIDI will be develeoped further, and say that you are aware of some lacking features.
This was also what I wanted to hear.
But I will make a final statement here: I have been using every kind of sequencers for years, there are some MIDI features that are "de facto" standart in every MIDI sequencer no matter the brand (cubase,sonar,magix etc.etc.). I think software engineers out there MUST invastigate the common elements in all sequencers, and provide them immediately witihn ACID. This can be an ACID 7 upgrade, but this MUST be. I don't say that you people out there are not working on this. This ain't a complication but keeping the industry standarts.

Thanks for your interest in ACID.

.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/26/2006 1:50:30 PM

We are on the same page.

Please, let me know any specific problems that you encounter so we can be sure to address them.

Thanks
Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ziggly

Date:8/26/2006 7:52:03 PM

O M G ! the funniest post i have ever read.


"acid is going to loose more and more ground to other applications if sony keeps up this behaviour.
it would also sound rather silly to advertise some of acid 7 features on the box with something like "now features drag & drop between clips, count in metronome and a phase invert button" (even though i am sure one can re-formulate it to make it sound more ground breaking ;) )" by Lossl ben Hossl.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ziggly

Date:8/26/2006 8:00:36 PM

just to add one more thought quickly..... i am sure this thread will be locked in a min becuase ,as in the words of a certian someone
"this thread is producing no useful content" :)

Why don't you cut to the chase and tell them the truth. Acid "Pro" is designed for the bedroom home musician enthusiast looking to throw some loops together with a couple VST synth parts. There's no "Pro" in Acid when you leave out glaringly obvious features like phase reverse buttons and drag and drop from track to track functionality, midi sequencing eccentials, among a parathera of other Vegas audio type features which where included when you actually had some Pro audio users contributing to the Vegas development. Put the "Pro" on the Acid name when you actually finish developing the professionally expected features.......Maybe Acid 7 will actually earn the right to have the name "Pro" tagged onto the end of the name. This is surely not a professional featured app, and the features that are there are no way on par with how a pro would expect them to function. The name should be called Acid 6 Alpha1.
-contributed
lol

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/27/2006 2:21:10 AM

About the random playback problem:
1- I am still looking for a definate reason about this. but I have found one workaround that is applicable ANYTIME this problem occurs.

STEP1- You record MIDI
STEP2- ACID shows MIDI notes, plays, but doesn't produce midi out messages so nothing is audible (of course for that specific track)
STEP3- You cut the clip and paste it into another track ( lacking drag&drop)
STEP4- Now the clip is audible on the new track (different MIDI instrument)
STEP5- You cut the clip and paste it into tje original track
STEP6- You hit play and this time ACID plays the clip

Result: This workaround was applicable to all playback clip problems in my case.

Note: Reset MIDI ports command doesn't solve the problem

Conclusion: Not found the reason but found a definate workaround which may cure people and may give developers a clue about what's goin on.

Will continue to feedback...back to music now

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/27/2006 3:34:54 AM

About constant crashes:

1- I was experiencing constant freeze of ACId while editing and after recording.

Solved: I am not experiencing freezes since I uninstalled the previous Sonar installation (m-audio 1010lt asio)

2- There constant glitches and crackles while auditing the song and try to open any editor window meanwhile.

3- Midi inline editing does not automatically focus to the notes you recorded.

4- Inline editing does not show individual note velocities unless you clivk "set to.." context menu option. this is an urgent need

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/27/2006 9:25:31 AM

>>4- Inline editing does not show individual note velocities unless you clivk "set to.." context menu option. this is an urgent need <<

You have to show the velocities using "F" key. Then they are associated to the notes. The value is displayed on the transport tool bar as you drag.

Are you saying you want a tool tip when you hover or drag the velocity on the velocity stem?

Note that you can also double click on a note and have its velocity edit open.


Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/27/2006 12:23:14 PM

Hi,

"Are you saying you want a tool tip when you hover or drag the velocity on the velocity stem?"

That would be nice but a better option is to show the note velocity on the toolbar or as a tooltip when you click the note or make a mouse over. (Without F the transport only show note names).

For now clicking F gives me what I want. Tough you have to zoom much to edit in this mode because of the graphical crumble.

Thanks

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/27/2006 12:49:58 PM

Ok here you are another prblem:

1- When you copy a midi clip, there semms to be a parent child relationship is initiated with the original clip.
2- When you edit child clip, the parent clip also changes.

This behaviour is handy sometimes but most of the time it is NOT wanted to behave in this way.

Most of the time you copy a clip and make small variations ih the child.

So, if you want to keep the default parent/child behaviour its ok but for instace holding shift and editing the child should break out of hte rule. I mean there should be an option for the child clip to gain its independence.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: drew_

Date:8/27/2006 1:14:23 PM

Re MIDI output stopping intermittently, is it possible that it is specifically MIDIsport 4x4 related issue? Sadly MIDI reset & reselecting the ports & channels don't resolve it so it really did become impossible for me to work on a big project.

I'm curious to know if my loop MIDI timing problems were related.. I still have an audio example of that if you're interested in hearing the effect, Peter.

Unfortunately I don't have a way to try new tests since my demo expired and I can't really justify buying it if I can't be sure I can resolve these things - also I'm yet to hear from anyone else about those Undo oddities which I faced frequently. I'm wondering if you have heard of this happening previously?


as to the quote: "it would also sound rather silly to advertise some of acid 7 features on the box with something like "now features drag & drop between clips, count in metronome and a phase invert button"

In ACID/SMS's defence a mate of mine who, like me, finds Vegas much more powerful for editing audio than ProTools 7 laughs everytime Digidesign bring out a new version trumpeting "catch-up" features as if they invented them. But at the same time there is always at least one big new feature in a release to put on the box.

As to what that "big" feature should be in ACID 7 - well, it's probably already decided & maybe well underway. For me the most exciting thing would probably be to open .veg files (discarding video)

If the missing Vegas aspects mentioned above can be put into ACID7 then great. Otherwise I'll also want to be able to export them again (discarding MIDI). But really I don't want to have to buy Vegas 7!


Meanwhile Peter I do understand what you're saying about the risk of too many options (like what happens on double-click) - so I'll accept that as it is, but I really can't understand the logic of some other implementation like the pitch shift on MIDI not moving the notes on screen, or showing you a visual indicator that it is transposed in the bottom-right corner of the clip. Surely modifier information like that should always be visible on screen.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: Lossl ben Hossl

Date:8/27/2006 1:36:58 PM

In ACID/SMS's defence a mate of mine who, like me, finds Vegas much more powerful for editing audio than ProTools 7 laughs everytime Digidesign bring out a new version trumpeting "catch-up" features as if they invented them. But at the same time there is always at least one big new feature in a release to put on the box

yes, and i have to say that my post sounded a bit negative, which wasn´t intended this way. i actually think ACID is great as it is, but some issues like drag & drop between tracks don´t even sound like a new feature to me.
i really think of it as something like a bug, or at least something they forgot to change, since it doesn´t really make too much sense (to me), other than that they simply "forgot" to remove the interlock which had its purpose in the previous versions of ACID

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:8/28/2006 1:28:06 AM

As Peter said...
What you want is the muddled UI and endless configuration that Cubase and SONAR present. Sorry, but that is not our design philosphy.

I totally agree with his point.

Use CTRL + SHIFT + DOUBLE-CLICK on the midi file you would like to edit with the in-place midi editor.

Yet, it would be great to be able to customize these kind of little tricks in the keyboard shortcut options.

I've also complained about this one (and demanded a PSP so I could dry my tears away ^^). At the end I got used to it (I know, I know... Sony Media Softwares doesn't mean Sony Entertainment ^^)

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: Spectralis

Date:8/28/2006 7:56:37 AM

I'm just curious what the timescale for the next upgrade of ACID might be. Will we need to wait until next year for version 7?

It would be useful to have some idea when the next upgrade will occur in order to put asides hopes that it might come earlier.

E.g. Second quarter 2007.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/28/2006 11:23:50 PM

Hi,

I have another recomendattion:

Why not the chopper tool allow to remove the selection from the audio clip ? That would be so helpfull in removing small pieces from the loop.

AND

I am digging it a bit for now so let me know if I'm wrong:

1- I think clip based effects are lacking in acid. You have to use an external audio program to modify a portion of the clip. Clip based effects (object based as in Samplitude) would be great.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/29/2006 8:14:41 AM

Is there any progress about the random playback problem ??

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/29/2006 11:41:05 AM

As I stated, we are working on reproducing this problem.

There is no schedual for when this will be addesses since that implies we must be able to reproduce and identify what the problem is.

If and when we can reproduce and then fix, it will make its way into an ACID 6 update.

Also, we never pre-announce when updates will be released. This does not mean we are ignoring user problems or issues. We release when we have addressed as many outstanding and critical problems as is possible given our resources.

Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: drew_

Date:8/29/2006 8:48:24 PM

It must feel good for the ACID team to read that interview with a big name like BT saying he loves ACID because it never crashes... it probably makes up for the fact that people like me sit here moaning about problems!

I gave up Protools HD2 Accel for Vegas and haven't looked back.. so I hope I can give up Cubase for ACID at the next version.. maybe I should look at giving up my MIDIsport 4x4 in the meantime?!

I guess there must be rock-solid favourite Audio & MIDI interfaces at Madison HQ, but I guess it wouldn't do to name them!

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: Pol Davril

Date:8/30/2006 12:37:13 AM

I guess the "random playback" issue you're talking about is the same issue as mine, explained here.
Maybe you can find some helpful information to reproduce and fix the problem.

Let me point out that I could reproduce the problem with several VSTi and external MIDI equipment as well (no notes sent to MIDI out).
Thus, maybe the problem is not about routing MIDI, but about generating the MIDI data itself.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/30/2006 8:52:32 AM

Yes Pol,
We are suffering from the same symptom.

I get rid of it by cut&paste to another midi track.

I cannot find a definitive reason, but I would ask you this:

Do you use a damper or sustain pedal while recording ?

(I don't think it is a midisport 4x4 specific problem)

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: drew_

Date:8/30/2006 10:32:59 AM

Hi I use sustain (but I guess most people do).

I can also confirm it happened to me with external MIDI and VSTi but I'm not sure if it happened with Rewire.

From memory it was happening on a single track, not necessarily track one, and as ghanedan said the workaround was to copy to another track. But then copying back to the problem track didn't bring the track to life again. It also wasn't just about one clip on the affected track, it would appear to be the whole track that fell silent.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/30/2006 1:08:49 PM

Hi,

I have found a simpler solution to the playback problem:

1- You record something and ACID won't playback
2- You press G and get into inline edit mode
3- The keyboard-like neavigation bar on the lesft is empty.
4- You minimize and maximize the track
5- The keyboard-like bar appears and playback is normal

Now do I deserve a piece of aprreciation big brother ?

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:8/30/2006 2:05:09 PM

Nope the above solution failed in one situation,

So the correct steps are:

1- You record something and ACID won't playback
2- You press G and get into inline edit mode
3- The keyboard-like neavigation bar on the lesft is empty.
4- You minimize and maximize the track
4.1 - The keyboard-like bar appears, no sound.
4.2 - You move a single note back-forward
5- and playback is normal

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: sgx

Date:8/30/2006 10:09:09 PM

Not to bust in on your bug squashing, but I'd like to add that I was extremely surprised you cannot send to an aux bus from a vsti (or any bus for that matter). This is huge.

My idea to improve this is to let you run the vsti audio from a track instead of a bus. I really like the way Acid handles sends in audio tracks and would like it to work with VSTi.

Also, there really needs to be a way to modify the length of midi loops manually rather than just having ACID round to the next measure or whatever it does.

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: randygo

Date:8/31/2006 10:01:33 AM

>My idea to improve this is to let you run the vsti audio from a track instead of a bus

Sony should take a look at Reaper for some ideas. There, you can simply insert a VSTi into any track. There is no hard distinction between tracks and busses. Anything can be routed to anything - its very elegant.

Cheers,

Randy

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:9/1/2006 12:52:15 PM

I refuse to use software synths. so I am not familiar with the vst-bus problem.

But if you need it yes I need it too.

On the other hand, for hardware synth users;

Why not instrument-controller definitions for Fantom X6 not present in Acid ? (Also e-mu xtreme lead-1). It has been about 2 years that Fantom emerged but still not in the package.

Up-to-date controller/instrument definitions needed

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:9/1/2006 2:30:13 PM

>>I refuse to use software synths.

Hmmm, ok...

Why?

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: pwppch

Date:9/1/2006 3:02:09 PM

Why no specific definition for your specific gear?

- We don't have the hardware and we wont be getting them anytime soon. We can't not possibly obtain every hardware device on the planet - old or new.

Most of the templates we include were either translated from information provided by the vendor or were put together by a dedicated user. .

- We provide the editor so users can develope their own maps. This is the best thing for you to do and is why we provided the editor. You have the hardware. You have the expertise with this hardware. It should be easy with the tools we provide you to map out your hardware.

Peter

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:9/2/2006 12:10:26 AM

I see,

On Roland's website they offer instrument definition files for most sequnecers (sonar, cubase etc.). But I thought this process was something of a cooperation between both companies, ( between cakewalk and Roland ).

Subject:RE: problems with pro 6 - wish list

Reply by: ghanedan

Date:9/2/2006 1:37:38 AM

refusal of soft-synths
"Hmmm, ok...

Why? "

Altough this subject is not in this forum's scope, something has to be said about the fashion of recent sequencers of devoting themselves to soft-synths.

For instance:

Acid Pro6 upgrade came with Kontakt and Acid 5 came witfh NI soft synth bundles. Ok I never use any soft-synths so these *bonus* software has no use for me. I would want to see a couple of instrument sample CD's that I would integrate with my fantom or kuzweil. ( Or better: Don't give me synths or samples, but offer me an SoundForge upgrade for half the price for instance)

And most of the effort is put on this vsti thing. I know, the usage percentage of soft-synths are growing more and more, but they are not as versatile as hardware and most pros still use hardware setups (not all but most).
People who use reason, NI, etc. etc. are usually budget users ( tough I would prefer a $100 generalmusic S2 synthesizer from ebay to all soft synths out there)

And this approach is killing hardware-synth manufacturers, (look at Fantom, it's like a Reason in a box), and various synthesizers of different characters of 90s are reduced to one model per 2 year strategy of 3 titans (triton, fantom, motif).

I need more ensoniq, kawai, generalmusic type of syntheszers, becuase they were REALLY sounding different in their days.

That's why I hate dx7 emulating soft-synths.

Let ACID support hard-synths