Subject:How to make Sections Vary>

Posted by: PeterWright

Date:8/10/2006 8:08:56 PM

Probably a simple answer, but I can't find it ...

I have used the excellent Sections feature to copy a verse.

In the second instance, however, I want to vary a couple of phrases. When I edit the second instance, it also changes the first instance, which I don't want to do.

Solution most appreciated.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/10/2006 11:09:37 PM

What are you actually editing/changing?

Peter

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: PeterWright

Date:8/11/2006 12:16:24 AM

Sorry Peter - I didn't mention - this is all Midi.

In the second copy of the Section, I am rephrasing a few parts, so the two don't sound identical, but as I change the copy, the original changes too.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/11/2006 3:26:19 AM

That's because you're editing the MIDI data itself, and both sections simply refer to that same MIDI data. To do what you want to accomplish you'd have to make a copy of the .mid file that was created and use that copy in the second section.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: PeterWright

Date:8/11/2006 4:41:10 AM

Thanks Kelly - I just realised I already raised this back in April - what is needed is the Vegas function - when you Ctrl / Drag Generated Media you get the choice of new or reference.

The same function applied to Sections would enable us to create a new copy of the Section, which we can then vary - which is a very important thing to be able to do musically.

Till then - as you suggest, copy the midi file, or as I'll probably do, copy blocks of midi notes in the piano roll.
Ctrl/Drag Sections is great though, because you can copy all tracks in one hit.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: billybk

Date:8/11/2006 4:50:28 AM

That's because you're editing the MIDI data itself, and both sections simply refer to that same MIDI data. To do what you want to accomplish you'd have to make a copy of the .mid file that was created and use that copy in the second section.


Yes, that is true. Maybe in a future ACID version we can have a right click "Section" menu option to "Link / Un-Link" when copying sections. If the "Un-Link" option is selected then any copied Section would automatically create a new reference file for the copied media (MIDI/Audio ?), so it could be independently edited.

Cheers,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: Spectralis

Date:8/11/2006 5:28:54 AM

What you can do is click on a midi file in the copied section and copy to new clip. It becomes a new clip that can be edited without affecting the original. A relatively quick and simple proceedure (depending on how many midi files you're changing.)

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: PeterWright

Date:8/11/2006 6:10:03 AM

The problem with copying midi files is I don't often want the whole lot. I may just want, say, bars 13 to 16 of a 24 bar midi file. I presently am copying those bars separately for each track, then changing the instruments I want to vary.
If Sections would operate as I described earlier, it would save so much time copying all tracks at once.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/11/2006 6:16:28 AM

Remember you are not copying MIDI files. You are copying the data internally.

What it sounds like you want is to have the section of the MIDI file to copy only the selected bars and create a new clip for the new Track Event to expose.

What we have talked about for a future version is something along these lines. Basically a clone/copy section under user control - i.e. not the default behavior. MIDI just complicates things as there are many different scenarios where sometimes you want the data to be linked and other times you dont.

Peter

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:8/11/2006 8:36:53 AM

"What you can do is click on a midi file in the copied section and copy to new clip. It becomes a new clip that can be edited without affecting the original. A relatively quick and simple proceedure (depending on how many midi files you're changing.)"

I was starting to feel discouraged. I haven't used the sections feature yet, but exactly what Peter Wright had described is how I envisioned using it. We need more ways to make our music sound less sequenced and more human like, and not to have functions that by default will make our music sound more steril.

So as long as Spectralis advice works without altering the source section part then this sounds like a good solution. So thanks for the tip Spectralis.

It would be great to see this changed in a future version, but I would addittionally like to see the option of "make a copy of source midi files only" because I really don't need the source audio files being copied.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/11/2006 10:59:49 AM

Actually audio files would not be copied - there would really be no point.

MIDI because it is about the notes and open to variation would have this option.

Peter

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:8/11/2006 2:23:21 PM

Thanks Peter,
That's basically what I was saying......but now I'm going to play devils advocate and look at the other side of the coin in regards to audio.

I could see a posibility where having the audio media being copied could be useful also. Set's say you copy a section and this time you want to change your audio up a bit. A good example would be using a drum loop in say a dance track. Often, the same group of music for a verse may be used, but to change it up and give it a different feel, you may want to throw a flanger on that drum loop, thus giving you the similar feel of the song, with some kind of special effect on a particular audio event. I'm sure there are other ways to do this, like maybe some FX's automation tricks you could use for this particular example.....but maybe there are other instances where you do want to copy the audio media files is my point. Like if you may want to do an "Open In Sound Forge" and apply the effect offline and not have it effect all of events, but just one of the copies. Options are always nice.

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/11/2006 3:36:37 PM

You want an "open copy in..." like Vegas has.

My point is that copying all of the audio files under a selection as a default behavior even with a modifier is REALLY expensive. MIDI has a trivial foot print for this Copying Audio files is expensive.

Not saying no, but I can't see this as any kind of default behavior. It is too easy and effcient to just do it on a need by need basis.

Peter

Subject:RE: How to make Sections Vary>

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:8/12/2006 5:32:56 PM

You're right. An open "copy" in Sound Forge, sounds like a better solution. Copying all selected media of a defined section is a bit overkill, where I could see things could get messy really fast.