Subject:Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Posted by: dirtynbl

Date:5/13/2006 3:51:06 PM

Basically, I am a chronic lover of all that is Sony and Sonic Foundry.

I use Vegas for video production and laugh at friends using Premiere or Avid or FCP because it takes them three times as long to do what I do. I wish Sony would make a competitor to After Effects. I've used Acid since version 1.0. Sound Forge is terrific.

I love the way Sony apps work logically and naturally rather than the ass backwards way things like Live work. Unfortunetly, I have to finish my album and I don't have time to deal with ACID's crap.

I have a lot of vsts and was hoping 6 would address issues that 5, but things seem to have only gotten worse. Acid + vsts + reason = recipe for a crash every few seconds. Not that this is new, 5.0 had the same problems and Vegas does as well. Which is frankly ridiculous and its the reason big time post production houses and studios don't use Sony products: they aren't stable.

Yeah, every program has bugs and occasionally crashes and whatnot, but not with the frequency that ACID does. I don't think I've ever crashed After Effects. Or Encore. Or Photoshop. Those are all production level pieces of software that run like they are supposed to 99% of the time.

Was this even beta tested? Does Sony go out and load a system with ACID, Waves plugins, Colossus, Synthogy Ivory, or other random but PRO vsts and check projects? How about that fact that when I combine those in a project and hit play ACID crashes? Unacceptable. Why not create some sort of crash log that tells me why the crash happens. Or make the program robust enough to handle a hiccup and not crash the whole program so I don't have to reload the entire system.

I get that software is bound to be buggy, but look at other PRO software places. They get updates out fast. CS2 updates come in daily.

ACID is a joke and its a sad joke because if it worked it would hands down be the best piece of audio software on the market, and version 6.0 doesn't fix the problems that have been present and pervasive since 4. So I need out. What do people recommend? Any programs out there that can import Acid projects so that I don't have to go back?

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: drbam

Date:5/13/2006 9:06:50 PM

" So I need out. What do people recommend? "

A few things: since this is the Acid user forum this is probably not the best place to ask that question – or more accurately, probably not the best place to get the information you're seeking. And although some users are obviously having problems with A6, many are reporting that they are regularly turning out professional work without a hitch – certainly nothing even close to the problems you report with such eloquence. So given this situation, and compounded by the fact that you seem determined to make your problems the fault of Acid 6's initial release, I suppose the appropriate response to your question is a simple "don't let the door slam you in the ass on the way out" or perhaps "have a nice day". . . whatever.

drbam

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:5/14/2006 4:30:54 AM

As drbam says, you have hardly endeared yourself to this forum with your post, so why should we offer any help? Appreceiate that you might be frustrated, but to make assertions like "ACID is a joke and its a sad joke " is just pure exaggeration. It works fine for most users. I have crashed it once, and that was with a dodgy shareware plugin I shuldn't have bothered with. It works with Waves, Gigastudio, and my general bunch of plugins.

Having said all that ... Sonar is probably the sequencer that comes closest to Acid in general "look and feel". You can load Acidised loops. Tough luck about not being able to load Acid song files (are you serious?). Personally, I find it much harder to work with than Acid, and I expect you to start posting about the extensive bugs 10 minutes after you start using it.

Live? This has rave reviews, and the timestretch algorithm is in many people's opinions better than Acid. I tried it and gave up because my machine didn't seem to like it - guess what, it crashed every 15 minutes! Now, I don't blame Ableton for that - I would spend some more time setting it up if I was serious about it.

I like and still use Cubase SL3 - it is much better for MIDI IMO, and I have always found it to be the solidest of all my software - very rarely a crash. However, the interface takes some getting used to if you are a long time PC user. Not at all looping friendly.

I don't like Logic, but you might.

Do us a favour - when you find something you like, post back here to tell us how stable it is. Be honest - I dare you to come back and tell us if you still have the same problems with every other DAW.

(Oh, and when you find a DAW that can "create some sort of crash log that tells me why the crash happens. Or make the program robust enough to handle a hiccup and not crash the whole program so I don't have to reload the entire system.", please tell us about it.)

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: dabb

Date:5/14/2006 6:47:24 AM

Definitely give Ableton Live 5 a try. After using Acid for years with lot'sa frustration I did and bought it the day I gave the demo a try. Its rock solid on my machines, has a large user forum and a great interface. Don't just take my word for it, give the demo a try.

Now after that being said, I still tweak around with ACID, I'm presently giving the demo of Acid 6 a spin, they have done some very nice additions, especially in the midi area, etc. Altough I did have some crashes, and had to do some serious tweaking to install the application. Also I don't like the fact that Acid can connect to the net via its menu, my opinion is that a serious daw should not be wired for the internet.

dabb

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:5/14/2006 8:19:00 AM

a serious daw should not be wired for the internet

That is very backward thinking. That's like saying ...

- a serious daw should not use USB/firewire
- a serious daw should not connect to a network
- a serious daw should not connect to external hard drives
- a serious daw should not write to CD-R/DVD-R
- a serious daw should not access my hard drive
- a serious daw should not use my floppy drive

The internet is not a bad thing. It's very very useful. It may have some bad things wandering around it, but they can very easily be avoided. To deny yourself external connectivity can seriously limit what you can accomplish.

If you personally don't like the internet-enabled functions of ACID then don't use them. If you don't like the external surface control functions of ACID then don't use them. If you don't like the video functions of ACID then don't use them ... etc.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:5/14/2006 9:56:12 AM

VSTs are a joke. Sure there are many more FREE VSTs than DX plugs but you pay a price (you get what you pay for) for the lack of standard parameters. DX have strict conforms.

I'll bet the vast majority of crashes are on systems with many VSTs. Other apps. have problems with VSTs as well, it's not just Sony apps.

I have very few if any crashes with Sony apps. (Vegas, Acid, SF, all versions over the years) I can't attribute to user error such as MIDI loops, too many other apps. open, etc. but I have VERY few VSTs.

MJ

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: filkertom

Date:5/14/2006 11:16:07 AM

Hah? I'm a low-level VST user, only been using 'em for a few months, and I've got Bandstand, Kompakt, the Kjaerhus Classic series, Spectralive, sfz, Delay Lama, StratAVarious, Vikko Lite.... the only one that ever gave me problems was something called Diner, which crashed Acid a few times until I uninstalled it.

Systems that use VSTs are like any other programs that have lots of add-ons -- the more you use, the more chance of you have of [a] conflicts and sheer running out of RAM. But that's no reason to diss VSTs when they are demonstrably one of the biggest things in music creation.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: drbam

Date:5/15/2006 6:48:02 AM

"for those who feel you have no right to criticize or compare sony to other programs, sorry but you are way off the mark."

I don't see ANY post that states or implies this. What I have confronted is the manner in which your criticisms are posted. You and some others have attacked Acid and Sony in with a degree of arrogance, and such lack of logical thinking, that it is simply mind-boggling. The bugs have been acknowledged by Sony and the beta users. They are working on them. More than anyone else, it was YOU switchman that was responsible for running Peter off at a time when he is REALLY needed here. When you start acting more professionally and respectfully, perhaps others here will be more tolerant and open to assisting you. My personal opinion is that you have most likely alienated most everyone one around here, not just Peter. I can't speak for others, but I would speculate that most have written you off as just some whining kid (which is certainly the way you come across in posts like your recent one).

And lest you think I myself haven't been critical of Sony, do a search and you will find that my rants about Vegas especially, came close to getting me kicked off the forum.

Peace,

drbam

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:5/15/2006 7:27:31 AM

dirtynbl : "Was this even beta tested? Does Sony go out and load a system with ACID, Waves plugins, Colossus, Synthogy Ivory, or other random but PRO vsts and check projects?"

All the waves plugs have always worked very well here. I have at least 1 Req4 per tracks, and many Rcomp, Rvox, Rverb, Ultramaximizer, on any project I make.

TheGrand 2 is not working well at all for rendering, and sometime even for playback on my computer. It does playback well with CubaseSX 3, but doesn't render well in SX3 either. So I guess it's either a Steinberg's TheGrand2 related issue, or it's my system's fault.

I'll soon test Ivory. I don't know if the Sony team has this great plugin, and I really hope I won't get any issue with this one also. This is really frustrating, but I can't blame anything yet, so it's even more frustrating for me.

Colossus, I'm not planning to buy this one. But it sounds like a very sweet piece of huge library. What issue did you go through with it ?

The only alternative, is in fact, a complementary sequencer, so if it doesn't work tight with Acid, you still can go with this one : Cubase SX 3. They've created VST. So if you have issue with it, it's most likely your system needs some serious clean up / reinstall. But I doubt you're this kind of guy.

I'm also wondering if Sony had all the Pro VST instruments out there when testing Acid 6. But I'm sure they have somekind of a testing pole in their office.

dirtynbl: "How about that fact that when I combine those in a project and hit play ACID crashes? Unacceptable"

Man, I'm very, VERY careful, when I'm combining Reason, GigaStudio Orchestra 3, and Acid pro 6 to play a project. Sometimes I end up splitting in severals "parts" projects so I'm sure I won't get any CPU overload. The workflow sux that way, but at least I get the job done right. And I'm as much carefull with Cubase SX3. Don't think this only applies to Acid.

With you, we're might be the only two guys on this forum wanting to do all In the box. It's a cheap bet, but not a safe one either. It's a great advantage though. I can't even think working another way.

dirtynbl: "Unacceptable. Why not create some sort of crash log that tells me why the crash happens. Or make the program robust enough to handle a hiccup and not crash the whole program so I don't have to reload the entire system."

I can't agree more on this one (forgive me everyone ^^). Whenever Acid Crash, it's wether I wait 15 minutes, whether I just reboot my system. Sometime, it crashes with so much memory peaks that even if I wait a whole night, the next morning it won't be gone of the Task Manager.

But nevertheless : Acid Pro 6 is the most stable Acid ever. I experienced very few crashes with it (maybe 15 max. since 6.0 was released). Most of the time I found out why it crashed, and reported to Sony when I could repro the bug.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: midiaxer

Date:5/15/2006 10:33:14 AM

Maybe a good alternative to ACID could be MESCALINE.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Laurence

Date:5/18/2006 10:17:23 PM

Every single one of them... every single DAW package out there has things about it that absolutely drive me nuts:

Sonar: it opens up gobs of windows and the timeline is cluttered with midi, audio and instrument setups. You can't preview midi loops either.

Tracktion: it doesn't do Acid loops. Might as well go back to using a tape recorder! Otherwise very cool, but what a huge function to be missing.

Cubase: that stupid dongle thingy, plus it does REX files instead of Acid Loops. Nowhere near as cool, plus I can do REX files better with Phatmatik Pro.

Logic: I could never figure it out, and after I spent a huge amount of money on it they dropped PC support!

Pro 5: missing incredibly important features like transport markers. Almost cool, but some pretty major oversights.

Reason: no tempo change, not plugin support, no audio.

For me at least, Acid Pro 6 is still the best of the bunch.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: switchman

Date:5/18/2006 10:58:09 PM

any thoughts on protools? considering springing for the digi002 if it's worth it........

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:5/19/2006 5:33:25 AM

I tried ProTools for an afternoon. It was one of the more confusing and unobvious interfaces i've dealt with. I suppose i could learn to use it, but what's the point when ACID is so much easier to use and cheaper too?

I was running the sound board at a concert at our church one evening and a couple of ProTools users had been asked to come record (which seemed odd to me since i usually record everything at our church already anyway). They set up next to me in the sound booth and i gave them feeds from the mixer. While they were unpacking their Macs i launched Vegas on our recording PC and started recording the musician's warmup set. The two of them just gawked at Vegas and couldn't believe how simple it was to setup and record tracks. I then took them through a few basic editing and mastering functions and burned a quick CD all in a few minutes after the musicians had finished their rehearsal. The ProTools guys just sat there with their jaws hanging. They both agreed it would have taken hours to accomplish what i did in minutes. At the end of the evening i heard them discussing purchasing some Windows PCs and Vegas.

ACID has almost exactly the same interface as Vegas, so it's power, speed, and ease of use would be similar.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Laurence

Date:5/19/2006 7:35:12 AM

I'm probably one of the few who would LOVE to see Acid and Vegas combined into one killer application.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:5/19/2006 7:56:06 AM

>I'm probably one of the few who would LOVE to see Acid and Vegas combined into one killer application.

What do you miss in particular from Vegas (about audio features) ?

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: billybk

Date:5/19/2006 8:21:37 AM

I'm probably one of the few who would LOVE to see Acid and Vegas combined into one killer application.


Except for the obvious video editing features, of Vegas, ACID & Vegas have been pretty much consolidated already.
According to Sony, ACID Pro 6 now has 95% of Vegas audio features. This is from the Knowledgebase:


How is Vegas software different from ACID Pro 6 software? They both do audio multitracking, right?


Answer
The short answer is that Vegas does not work with MIDI tracks in the timeline. So if you need MIDI, you will need ACID Pro 6.0 software rather than Vegas software.



Both Vegas (not the Studio consumer level versions, just the professional versions) and ACID (ACID Pro 6.0 and later) perform multitrack audio recording, editing and mixing. However, if you want to perform MIDI sequencing, multitrack recording and take advantage of automatic time-stretching and pitch shifting, ACID Pro 6 has been designed from the ground-up for professional music production. ACID Pro 6.0 has 95% of the audio features that Vegas has. Here is a detailed list of the differences:



What does Vegas have which ACID does not?

Phase invert switches on tracks & events
Nondestructive normalize of events
Adjust event channels (left-only/right-only/combine/swap)
Manual timestretching of events on the timeline (by contrl+dragging event edges)
"Open copy in sound forge" from event context menu
Apply non-realtime audio effects to events
Show media-owned markers within events on the timeline
User-definable metronome sounds
Support for 5.1 effects on the master bus (currently only EQ & compression)

Audio/Video features:
Event-owned take lists
Event grouping
Event locking
Edit details window (editable spreadsheet view of detailed info on events & markers)
Export projects to EDL text files
Export projects to AAF
Advanced "Auto Ripple" editing mode
Scripting support
Better management of project-wide media pool (Project Media window)

What does ACID Pro 6.0 software have which Vegas does not?
Sections
MIDI support
Soft synth support
Rewire support
Beatmapper (for finding exact tempo of long files)
Chopper (Vegas has its Trimmer, which is similar, but has none of the measure/beat/tick-oriented features which make the chopper useful for quick & easy remix applications)
Groove Mapping
Folder Tracks
Support for alternate time signatures
Support for tempo changes
Lots of ACID loop features
Vegas does not let you edit ACID stretch properties
Loops in Vegas don't respond to changes to the project tempo (in Vegas the project tempo is used only for calculating the measures & beats ruler—it doesn't affect how the audio is played)
ACID allows you to set a project key, which will cause any ACIDized loops with a defined key to match their pitch to. In Vegas you can adjust the pitch of ACIDized loops, but you must do it manually).



The only thing I am missing from Vegas, is the ability to drag & drop events/clips from one track to another. I also would not mind a convenient keyboard shortcut, for opening Sound Forge, when selecting a clip to be edited, from the timeline. Otherwise, I am pretty satisfied with where ACID Pro 6 is at right now.


Cheers,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: kbruff

Date:5/19/2006 8:43:41 AM

I support this comment!

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: switchman

Date:5/19/2006 9:48:37 PM

HMMM..
i was never too intereted in vegas because i always assumed it was mainly a video application, but now i'm interested. as i mainly do "industrial" music when it comes to daw's, can anyone comment on if vegas has any more, or different effects and or effects chains as opposed to acid?
thanks in advance!

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:5/20/2006 4:17:10 AM

The effects chains should be identical.

Vegas is more like a multitrack tape recorder.
ACID is more like a sequencer.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: drbam

Date:5/20/2006 6:46:56 AM

"The only thing I am missing from Vegas, is the ability to drag & drop events/clips from one track to another."

This is a HUGE limitation in A6 in my view. Add to this the lack of grouping, and I still will need to use Vegas for final editing and mixing. Multitrack recording, editing and mixing are the primary functions I'm involved in. Sequencing and midi are secondary, so for me personally, moving from Vegas to A6 would not be a step forward. I will still need to use both in the way I'm using Vegas and A5 now. I realize that I'm in the minority here but when someone says that A6 has all the features of Vegas, they are simply wrong. Close - but a few major ones are still missing.

drbam

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:5/30/2006 4:45:08 PM

In reply to drbam's and others responses...
Huh? Why don't some of you get a life?
I don't think anybody with a flippin brain cell read dirtynbl's post as being crass.

He's talking about proper testing, and I for one agree. If you think we're the only ones saying this then I'll ask you how life in the closet is.
Proper testing has gone by the wayside, this trend runs rampant here.
Building a vsti/daw app? Well welcome to what that entails.
It does mean spending some $ on testing, it does mean spending time with the popular vsti's and testing.
And yes, it IS congruent with this applications price tag.

I remember looooooooong ago when I was constantly harping about the inane separation of vegas and acid. Now - for some reason - here it is after this long. It took a long while...so I say, what's a waiting a bit longer going to hurt? Why not delay the app UNTIL IT'S BEEN FULLY TESTED?

What the orig poster is saying as well is, other companies address fixes/updates in a somewhat timely manner...but at sfoundry/sony, for some reason it takes forever. Who knows why, and I the consumer could care less to hear the reasons, the bottom line is I just need to get to work.
Therefore - I'd say don't release the damn thing until, at least, all major functionality is tested complete. Problem with this thinking? Really? Tell me why?.
You know all minor bugs/functionality will be sent from the users end as is with every app.

For daw work and vid editing, I love vegas. It's been a long road but i've stuck thru with foundry/sony.
I would love to use acid 6, but that A6 demo ain't pushing any of the right buttons with me. "crashing" anything is not gonna fly. I'm not taking that same road trip with acid, so I cannot reccomend acid 6 YET.
I'd rather take the wait and see approach in this case.

In answer to the question - either wait for acid 6 to come to terms (how long?...who knows?). Or, look into Ableton live (once again).

In answer to these fanfreaks slamming others for making very valid points here: those who find some odd application solidarity (as if they're in some sort of weird cult/club) - get a grip and grow up. It's a VALID question given the acid 6 problems. Look at the pricetag and look at the issues. This application deserves delay before that product and pricetag is slung out to the public.

The melding of vegas and acid should pan out nicely for all, and major kudos to them for attacking this application.
But why it's released before it's ready is bothersome to say the least.
What's even worse is to hear from users who jump on others who point this out (and it's other flaws). Shame on you.

Now, don't let MY door hit you too hard on that way out.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Davetheonemendez

Date:5/30/2006 7:10:56 PM

To answer your question without being rude, I would say-------- give abletons live 5 a spin or soundtrack on the apple/mac platform.

Algthough live is a very powerful app; it lacks the visual aspect that acid has. I like to see my audio and what i'm doing with it and put my hands on it. Use acid as it was meant to be used (before it was a daw) utilize Vegas, Cubase, Nuendo and use the rewire functions for acid.

I've always come back to Acid pro for my megamixing, extreme editing needs. It's as close to working with reel to reel tape than any other app out there for me. I like to cut my pieces to perfect 16ths 32nd's or 64ths and create digital mayhem. Beatmapper makes life alot easier when doing satellite/fm radio mixes. To this day there really is nothing like it out there (apples soundtrack is very close though)

Hang in there........

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Alex_Talionas

Date:5/31/2006 10:49:15 AM

"What does Vegas have which ACID does not?

Phase invert switches on tracks & events
Nondestructive normalize of events
Adjust event channels (left-only/right-only/combine/swap)
Manual timestretching of events on the timeline (by contrl+dragging event edges)
"Open copy in sound forge" from event context menu
Apply non-realtime audio effects to events
Show media-owned markers within events on the timeline
User-definable metronome sounds
Support for 5.1 effects on the master bus (currently only EQ & compression)"

Let's add to that list since, maybe the person from Sony doesn't know Vegas very well and they need to be updated with a few more items.

So in addition to the above listed items of what Vegas has and Acid 6 doesn't as far as Audio features:

1. Event selection does not carry over with "open in Sound Forge".
2. No Event switches
a. Mute
b. Normalize
c. Channel select options
d. Lock
e. Invert Phase
3. No Move events to other tracks via drag&drop or keyboard short-cut commands.
4. Missing Audio Event Editing Features
a. Event Edge Trim mode
b. Slide Edit Point functions
5. No project Media Pool
6. No Scripting
7. No Add as a Take option
8. Does not support included Sound Forge plugins
9. No Open in Chopper/Trimmer from Explorer Window
10. No event crossfade Selection menu items
11. No Tape Style Audio Scrubbing
12. No Nestable Project Tracks
13. No AAF Import/export
14. No Broadcast .WAV import
15. No EDL export
16. No Event Snap to Frame
17. No Event Grouping Feature

Someone said Acid had 95% of the Vegas audio features?????? Guess again and try to get to know the features of Vegas a little more. Or the same advice back to some of the regulars that post in this forum..."RTFM". Maybe Sony can surprise us with the next update to bring Acid a little closer to that 95% audio function of Vegas huh?

Too bad we can't rewire Vegas to Acid, that would compliment the missing audio features in Acid very nicely.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: Alex_Talionas

Date:5/31/2006 11:23:31 AM

As far as another alternative to Acid in response to the original post. I suggest taking a look at Reaper. It's not done yet, but already has more audio editing capabilities than Acid, plus a lot of other goodies. It's Free for now, until it reaches the v1.0 release.


Reaper

Vegas would also be a good alternative to Acid, but only if you don't need any Midi, VSTi's, Loop sequencing like Acid, or the ability to Rewire to another app. Basically, if you're strictly doing audio multitrack audio recording, editing and mixing then Vegas would be a good choice.

Subject:RE: Whats the best alternative to ACID 6?

Reply by: liquid

Date:5/31/2006 7:01:37 PM

Dude, I love/hate acid. I could be the best, but in reality, it's not usable. I do music all DAY! I use sonar now and it hasn't crashed on me once since I got it. AND IT PLAYS BACK ACID LOOPS THE SAME WAY ACID DOES!!!! It kills acid in every way, and it plays acid loops, what more could you ask for. Whatever difficiencies it has are totaly minor compared to acid sucking ass 99% of the time. Sorry sony, but I paid almost $400 for acid pro and it bites.