Subject:major acid 6 flaw

Posted by: switchman

Date:4/29/2006 10:14:18 PM

i am a big fan of acidpro, but have to admit a big flaw in version 6. i am using the EXACT same f/x chain that i was using in acid5, and even went to the trouble of writing down every effect and specification-twice! problem is that recreating this chain in acid 6 simply DOES NOT SOUND THE SAME. it does sound close, but when i compare it to acid 5, the older version sounds much better..what gives? hey sony, i've spent THOUSANDS of my hard earned $$$ the past year, how about telling me how to get the same audio quality on my f/x chain that i got from your earlier version that i paid to upgrade!

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:4/29/2006 10:25:51 PM

I am intrigued.

Can you describe the difference?

Can you do a spectrum analysis in SF8 and show us where the differences lie?

What exactly is the FX chain you are using? I can't imagine how a software rewrite could possibly alter the sound - it's all numbers, after all.?

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/30/2006 3:42:37 AM

First off welcome to the forum...

Now...

1)Please fill out your system specs.
2)Please list the plugins your using and the vender+version number.
3)What chain of plugins are you using? (ie:Uad 1176>>Uad Cambridge>>etc..
4)What type of files are being used? ie:wave/mp3/etc...
5)What are the render templates that you are using? 24bit/44.1 or 16bit/44.1...etc...
6)What sounds different? The low...mid...high frequencys??? The stereo field is off? Phasing???
7)Could you please list a "step by step" method of reproing your situation?

Ed.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: feign

Date:4/30/2006 7:45:07 AM

I thought I was imagining things, but I also hear differences in sound quality since upgrading to version 6, just using regular commercial loops from Sony, without any effects applied other than volume envelopes. Since I uninstalled version 5 I can't do a spectral comparison. But I can describe it:

Music in Acid Pro 6 sounds more brash, oversaturated in the upper frequencies, but not in the bass. It is noticeably harsher and less warm than before. Sometimes sounds almost like some reverb is applied, which may just be how I hear the oversaturation.

I have changed nothing in my audio hardware. The computer is fairly basic, but it outputs directly through an audiophile amp and speakers and headphones, so imperfections and imbalances show up loud and clear:

OS: Windows 2000
Sound card: Soundblaster SB Live
No plugins or plugin chain
Using 16 bit/44.1 WAV for input and output

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: Laurence

Date:4/30/2006 8:21:40 AM

Can you guys do me a favor and try the same effects chain on a bus instead of a channel and see how that sounds. I haven't noticed a sound change using the channel effects but I have noticed performance differences. Anyway, if the effects sound better on a bus send than our problems may be related.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: filterthing

Date:4/30/2006 9:39:30 AM

call me crazy, I think acid6 sounds better than 4 or 5. Seems to have more punch to me. I also think that before you start pointing fingers at sony, you should invest in a better audio interface than a sound blaster.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: switchman

Date:4/30/2006 1:42:54 PM

I'M NOT USING SOUNDBLASTER. I'M USING A PRESONUS FIREBOX...
I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE OVERALL SOUND QUALITY OF 6- I THINK IT'S GREAT. HOWEVER THIS COMPLICATED F/X CHAIN IS DESIGNED FOR INDUSTRIAL MUSIC VOCALS: I.E. LOTS OF COMPRESSION AND SOME DISTORTION. THE POINT WAS TO GET A VERY AGGRESSIVE "DISTORTION" SOUND WITHOUT THE OVERBEARING-IMPOSSIBLE-TO- UNDERSTAND DISTORTION. I GUESS MY FEAR IS THAT THIS NEW VERSION IS SO SLICK AND CLEAN, IT HAS POLISHED SOME OF THE ROUGH EDGE THAT SOUNDED PERFECT IN V.5. :)

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/30/2006 2:25:56 PM

"I GUESS MY FEAR IS THAT THIS NEW VERSION IS SO SLICK AND CLEAN, IT HAS POLISHED SOME OF THE ROUGH EDGE THAT SOUNDED PERFECT IN V.5. :)"

LOL!!! That's great! It reminds me a few years back of some people yearning for that "great blackface sound" of the original ADATs after Alesis upgraded the converters in the XTs and XT20s. Of course "that sound" was just gritty, terrible converters. Different strokes. . .

drbam

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: switchman

Date:4/30/2006 2:35:01 PM

yeah!
so much for progress!
in all honesty though..
i was recording vocal, guitar, bass and loops with no problem at all in acidpro 5. is acid 6 really worth the hype? or is it just alittle better envelope writing with KONTACT that won't even work right with my evolution mk-249c (which worked just fine with the NI freebies from acid 5)? it took me awhile to get acid 5 working with my system too, as do all software daw's, i guess i was just hoping for a much smoother transition is all.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:4/30/2006 5:24:06 PM

"is acid 6 really worth the hype? "

Well, can't speak for anyone else, but for me the answer is a definite "yes".

I have been with Acid pro since version 3. 6 has been the smoothest transition with the most new features. Acid 4 was hardly worth the trouble, just a case of Sony wanting to keep existing users happy with a new upgrade. Acid 5 introduced some good new stuff with the groove quantising, folder tracks and VST support, but was probably the buggiest of them all. I have had no problems with Acid 6 - perfect install, no crashes, works fine with my Yamaha 01X. Bundling Kompakt was a real bonus - it reads my Gigastudio instruments and converts them INCLUDING key switches. Giga has long been the bane of my life - it is so hard to work with and so likely to crash windows. I may well buy the full version of Kontakt and ditch Giga just to make my life easier.

FWIW, I haven't noticed any changes in the audio quality of Acid 6. I find it hard to believe that there could be diffrences at all - unless they have changed the convolution algorithms in the mixer or something like that.

Actually, now I think of it, didn't the promo say something about new improved Acid looping processes? If they have changed the way loops are timestretched, that could account for a perceived difference?

It's time I did some serious output comparisons! I still have both versions installed.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: feign

Date:4/30/2006 6:51:48 PM

The issue is not whether I have a Soundblaster. Please no snide remarks from hardware snobs. The issue to me is this:

Using Acid Pro 5 when I previewed the project, the sound quality was the same as the rendered WAV.

Using Acid Pro 6 when I preview the project the sound is slightly, but perceptibly, harsh and oversaturated, although the rendered WAVs sound fine, same as with Acid 5, without the harshness or oversaturation.

Therefore, editing in Acid Pro 6 is a little bit like touching up a photo while wearing red-tinted glasses. You have to guess what the photo will look like with the glasses off. In Acid Pro 6, to a small extent I now have to guess what the final render will actually sound like.

There is something new in Acid Pro's audio processing that causes the preview to sound slightly different than the final render. Whether one has a cheap Soundblaster or the fanciest audiophile sound card is not the issue.

In spite of this, I do think Acid 6 is worth the upgrade. For my purposes, the timeline MIDI editing is worth the price by itself.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: switchman

Date:5/1/2006 4:16:16 AM

I'LL FILL YOU IN WHEN I GET OFF WORK TODAY-THANKS!

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: GLYPTICminority

Date:5/1/2006 7:06:15 AM

Perhaps there is a difference in the output levels, providing you with a harsher sound. If you drop the main volume down 6 db, what happens?

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:5/1/2006 7:41:11 AM

> Please no snide remarks from hardware snobs.

Since I’m not a hardware snob I guess it’s OK for me to make a remark. ;-) I am, however, a former Soundblaster Live and Audigy 2 user and I can tell you first hand that these cards really do sound different compared to a good audio card. So it’s not people being snobbish, it’s just people speaking the truth. Soundblaster cards color the sound so that DVD’s and Games sound BETTER. You don’t want this artificial coloring for your audio. You want to hear the true sound. So the Soundblaster really isn’t giving you an accurate reproduction of the recorded sound to begin with but you should not be hearing a difference between preview and render unless you are listening to the rendered file through a player that is coloring the sound.

I also noticed that you are using the Soundblaster in 16 bit/44.1 WAV for input and output mode. The Soundblaster Live hardware does NOT support this natively. It only supports 16-bit/48Khz. So the Soundblaster software drivers are converting your 16-bit/44.1Khz input to 16-bit/48Khz in order to process it in the hardware, and then converting that back to 16-bit/44.1Khz for playback. This is also coloring the sound.

Try setting your project up for 16-bit/48Khz so that the Soundblaster can process your audio natively in the hardware. This will at least eliminate the software drivers getting in the way (and introducing unwanted aliasing and latency) This might not solve your problem but using the Soundblaster Live in native 48K mode is still a good idea.

~jr

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:5/1/2006 8:26:02 AM

Using better drivers for your Live or Audigy card can really help too. The kX Project driver really help in unleashing the real power in those sound cards. They won't make them pro audio cards but they will sound better and ASIO will work better. You can find the latest version of the kX drivers here (v 3538j):

http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?t=97845

The official kX Project site can be found here:

http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/index.php?skip=1

The latest "stable" release of the drivers (v 3537) are quite old now so you bettter download the latest one from the forum thread above.

Until I have the budget for a new computer and a better sound interface the kX drivers at least permit me to use my SB Live Platinum card to its full potential and it does sound noticeably better with the kX drivers than the Creative ones (which do not even support ASIO...)

HTH!

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: feign

Date:5/1/2006 5:56:42 PM

Okay, I got the message about the Soundblaster. Yes, it sucks. Yes, I am getting a new card soon (M-Audio Delta 66...and please don't tell me it sucks too, because I'm buying it anyway). But the fact remains that ONLY in Acid Pro 6 is there a difference between the preview and rendered sound. Since this never happened in Acid Pro 5, it doesn't happen in Adobe Audition 1 or 1.5, it doesn't happen in Adobe Premiere, After Effects, Flash, silly little audio programs like Juicer 2 and Awave Studio, or even Windows Sound Recorder, I can very safely assume that the problem is with Acid Pro 6. Since the Soundblaster Live drivers are resampling and reprocessing and messing up the sound equally for every application, I can't blame the Soundblaster or its drivers.

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:5/1/2006 6:41:51 PM

... except that Acid does something that none of those programs does - it is constantly playing loops in real time "Acid loop stretching" mode. Even if you are playing back a loop at its original tempo, (I think) Acid will be applying its proprietary loop playback algorithm. So Acid 6.0 may be the only application that shows up the Soundblaster issue (if there is one).

Subject:RE: major acid 6 flaw

Reply by: billybk

Date:5/1/2006 7:22:16 PM

Yes, I am getting a new card soon (M-Audio Delta 66...and please don't tell me it sucks too, because I'm buying it anyway)


Good move, ditch the crapblaster game card! I've had my Delta 66 for over (5) years now and use it with a variety, of professional level audio apps, including SONAR 5 & Sound Forge. I've never had a hardware related problem and the drivers are rock solid. I suggest you use the latest .51 drivers (the PT compatible ones). Great performance in ACID Pro 6, using ASIO mode, even with latencies, as low as 1.5msec (64 sample buffers). FWIW, I usually record all my projects @ 24/44.

Cheers,

Billy Buck


P.S: One thing to be aware of though, don't change latencies, in the middle of an open project or ACID has a habit of crashing to the desktop. If you need to change the audio latency, close any open projects first.