Subject:Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Posted by: H2000

Date:4/27/2006 7:34:56 PM

I like the new feature to have longer audio tracks record automatically as beatmapped instead of one-shots. But when the option to have beatmapped tracks pitch shifted with tempo change is active, the track pitches even though the tempo never changed.

I record a live bass track. It is beatmapped by default. The "change pitch with tempo change" is checked. Even though I never touch the tempo, the track has obvious pitch shifting artifacts. If I uncheck "change pitch with tempo changes", the artifacts go away. If I change the track to one-shot, the artifacts go away.

Is it normal to have pitch shifting happening on a beatmapped track at it's original recorded tempo?

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: Ranger Bob

Date:4/27/2006 10:20:19 PM

No this is not normal. I've also noticed this bug but never bothered to say anything. This problem does not exsist in older versions. Even so, you'll you'll probably still get replies to your post saying you forgot to check the correct box. You'll also noticed the "Time Selection" tool can no longer select individual tracks, you must select all tracks for the tool to work properly. This puts a very serious crimp in my work flow. The beatmapping & time selection tools were 2 VERY important reasons I use ACID Pro. I am forced to finish the current projects I've started with Pro 6, but I'm going back to the old version for all new projects. I bought the upgrade without testing every single feature of the program. I should've learn from other Sony upgrades, mainly the butchering of Sound Forge, to be more wary of this company. This is not Sonic Foundry! Don't count on these bugs being fixed in any updates, Sound Forge 8d in not as good as version 7, which is not as good as version 6. I'm thinking they may have peaked with Acid Pro 5.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/28/2006 4:12:39 AM

Please post step by step repro of the problems your having.

How does it work in AP5 and how is it different in 6?

What bugs are you finding?

Ed.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/28/2006 10:04:35 AM

Ed: I don't think you can compare this to Acid5 because the feature to record tracks as beatmapped wasn't in Acid5.

"Please post step by step repro of the problems your having."

I think I layed it out clearly in my post above. If there is something you need clarification on, let me know.

"What bugs are you finding?"

Are you understanding my post? If you need clarification, be specific. My question is "why is a beatmapped track pitch shifting when there has been no tempo change?"

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/28/2006 10:14:30 AM

I thought I could get around the problem by making the default recorded type to be "one-shot" as with previous Acid versions. However, after doing some recording with the default type as one-shot, I ran into another bug. The one-shot recorded tracks (over a looped section) do not allow me to select clips: The name of the clip changes, but the actual clip never does.

Here is a step by step:
1.) make sure the ACID type for recorded Audio is set to "one-shot"
2.) make a loop selection in the timeline, and turn looping on
3.) start the cursor just before the loop section
4.) start recording a new audio track. let it loop a few times and stop.
5.) use "c" or "shift-c" to select clips: the name changes, but the clip doesn't.

So, either way I record I run into a bug. default beatmapped pitch shifts with no tempo changes, and one-shot doesn't allow clip selection.

I have workarounds for now. But, seriously. Was this not seen in testing? OR, is this standard "one-shot" behavior. In which case, the selection of clips should not be available (and then why does the clip name change?)

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: Ranger Bob

Date:4/28/2006 12:02:41 PM

Yes! You could record tracks as Beatmapped in version 5. When click record and the record window would open - you'd find 2 check boxes near the bottm - a metronome box and under that a box marked "Make new track follow project tempo (Beatmapped track)"
Theses tracks were very flexible for using in other keys at varying tempos.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/28/2006 12:19:52 PM

Yep, you are right. I guess I never even used it in Acid5. Thanks for pointing it out :-)

OK. I take back my comment on the "new" feature. LOL

Edit: I just checked this with Acid Pro5 and there are no pitching artifacts with beatmap recorded tracks.

Oh well, I guess audio recording in Acid6 wasn't tested?

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: Ranger Bob

Date:4/28/2006 1:23:49 PM

I've found way too many things that were not tested in the new version, which is why I'm uninstalling it as soon as I'm done with the 5 or 6 projects I've started with Pro 6. Wait till you try to use the time selection tool, another formerly great feature that worked perfect in previous versions.
There's a good chance these bugs may never be fixed, judging from what's become of Sound Forge. Sony's lack of concern bothers me because I always loved Sonic Foundry.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/28/2006 2:43:39 PM

Guys please focus. Reading all the rants are getting in the way of reproing the problem. IMHO...If you want to rant do it AFTER you post your bug.

Thankyou H2000 for the step by step I can confirm the one-shot clip behavior.

Though when I try to repro the beatmap bug I'm not seeing this...I'll try some more and get back to you.

Ranger bob could you please do the same. Time selection tool is not something I use often or at all in my workflow so please post your findings.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/28/2006 3:15:49 PM

I realize we tend to get emotional about this stuff, but sometimes little things can be so frustrating.

Ed: After reading that you could not repro the pitch shifting on beatmapped tracks, I went back and did another test in a blank new project and this time it appears to work fine. I know I had the problem the other night but here in a very controlled experiment it appears to behave correctly. I don't really know what that means, but it seems that at least one other user has experienced this. I will keep my eyes open for it again. It probably wouldn't even be obvious on all but the lowest bass notes (I heard it on a 5string bass guitar track).

Also, thanks for checking into the "one-shot" thing. Like I said, I'm not sure what the default behavior is supposed to be, but there seems to be some confusion.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/28/2006 3:33:29 PM

"I realize we tend to get emotional about this stuff, but sometimes little things can be so frustrating."---Trust me I know. ;)

I've reproed the behavior with the one-shot type settings when recording a new trk. Again the beatmapped bug I can't figure how to repro. If you can please do a step by step like you did before when you find it.

Thanks for taking the time out to do it. The only way we can nail any bugs and make a great 6.0a is for each of us to do this. If not then you run the chance for it to be missed.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/28/2006 3:42:56 PM

I know I had the problem the other night but here in a very controlled experiment it appears to behave correctly.

It probably wouldn't even be obvious on all but the lowest bass notes (I heard it on a 5string bass guitar track).---

Q-How do you record? What is you signal chain?

Q-How was the session with the bugs prior NOT "a very controlled experiment"? How has the variables changed?

Q-Have you tried recording a keyboard part with low notes to see if this is happening as well?

I have a seven string Schecter Diamond series c-7 guitar. I'll try to record some stuff and see if I can find anything weird in the low region.

Q-Any plugins added to the recording trk like reverb/compression/etc...If so what brand and version #?

I use guitar rig 2 on my trks for my distorted sound. I add Izotope trash as well to modify the sound too.

Talk to you soon.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/28/2006 4:01:20 PM

Lots of questions....

Well, I went back to the project I was having problems with. I had originally solved this by changing the clip properties type to "one-shot". This got rid of the pitch shifting artifacts.

OK., well now I go in and change it back to "beatmapped" and sure enough the artifacts come back. It's not really shifting the pitch by any noticable margin, except for the artifacts you can hear. Change it back to "one-shot" and no more artifacts. The track was recorded at the current project tempo. That has never changed.

As I develop a song, I save the project with new letter suffixes appended to the name (_a, _b,_c,etc). So I was able to trace this back. I see where the original track was recorded. It was recorded as beatmapped. AND, it played fine with no artifacts! Then I go a couple more saves ahead and everything is the same: it's still beatmapped and still no artifacts.

Then I get to a save where it has been changed to a "one-shot" (same recording/clip but different clip property setting). This is apparently where I heard a problem and changed the type. Well, if I try to set it back to beatmapped, the artifacts come back every time.

OK, good luck trying to figure this one out. It's crazy.

PS edit: Not a signal chain problem - bass recorded direct/DI. No plugins on the track.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/28/2006 5:09:20 PM

Q-So the artifacts are not "printed" but only depend on whether you have it set to one-shot or beatmapped?

Q-Do you hear any artifacts during the recording or only playback?

Q-Have you exported the file with the artifacts to soundforge/wavelab/etc...and seen it there too?

Q-What pitch/tempo do you have it set at?

Q-Do you hear the file actually pitch higher/lower or is it a background "harmony" type sound.

Q-Render it to a wave file...Does it get rendered too?

Ed.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/28/2006 5:34:33 PM

A- correct.

A- only during playback. I am record monitoring from my soundcard.

A-have not exported it.

A-tempo of the track is 91.042 BPM

A-no audible pitch shifting, only the artifacts (warbling)

A-haven't tried this but I imagine the render would be as I hear it

It is as if the pitch shifting is being applied even though no pitch shifting is happening (or maybe a very small fraction of a semi-tone). Acid is doing precisely what it should be doing IF the track had been recorded at a different tempo (which it was not as I verified by going back to the older versions of the project).

So you see, it is very strange indeed. I wouldn't even know how to go about trying to reproduce it. Only thing I could do is try to send someone at Sony the project with just that clip and they can try to disassembly what happened.

Edit: As an additional note. All newly recorded beatmapped tracks in this particular project are showing this problem. So, I guess there really is something going on here.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo chg

Reply by: Ranger Bob

Date:4/29/2006 9:48:36 AM

You may have mentioned this - I've noticed that the tempo of the song itself is not always the tempo of the recorded tracks. When I would check the properties on the wobbly sounding recorded track I noticed it was beatmapped at over 300 bpm, while the song tempo was only 151bpm. On one song, every guitar track was beatmapped at a different bpm. BUT some tracks are correct. This only happens in Pro 6.

Subject:RE: Beatmap rec. trks pitch shftd -no tempo c

Reply by: Sony_fshotwell

Date:5/1/2006 2:31:59 PM

H2000, Ranger Bob, SHTUNOT,

Thanks for all the posts on these two bugs.

The one-shot Clip toggling is indeed a problem, and it’s unfortunately deeper than just a simple bug – it’s a design limitation.

When cycling/toggling Clips on an event, we use the Beatmap “downbeat” property as the mechanism to offset the event to the correct position in a file, when dealing with multiple Clips drawn from a single file.

ACID oneshots currently don’t have a “downbeat”, so they’re not capable of storing their offset in a manner that allows for the same convenient Clip-cycling that Beatmaps provide.

We hope to fix this limitation soon, but in the meantime, here’s the simplest workaround I can think of: Open the Chopper window, go through the list of Clips in the Clip Pool, and you’ll see that each of the different Clips contains a single Region, corresponding to the material recorded on that pass. You can then select the region within the Chopper, and drag that material onto the timeline to replace the existing event with the “take” you’ve selected.

Regarding the Beatmap time-stretch issue: We have not yet come up with the right repro conditions to catch this bug in action. I'll be contacting you both (Ranger Bob & H2000) by email to get some more details, and have you upload some of the problem projects if possible.

Thanks,
Frank Shotwell
Software Design Engineer
Sony Media Software