Mic for choirs?

maylee wrote on 4/24/2006, 11:37 AM
Is there anyone among the Vegas users who can suggest a mic model suitable for recording choirs, mostly amateur. I have been doing this for a number of years, using a pair of AKG C451EBs. These are slim phantom powered condenser mics, but I find them to be a little harsh sounding, no matter whether I am using analog recorders, digital (DA-30), or direct to computer. Being retired I dont want to invest a whole lot of money.
The choice of makes and models is greater than when I originally bought these

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 4/24/2006, 12:53 PM
Condenser mics are a bit harsh, but that's because they're very accurate and clean. If you want a warmer, smoother sound then dynamics might be a good choice. On a tight budget? Look for a pair of Shure SM-57 mics. They're intended for semi-close instrument micking, but they work find with large groups too. They're cardiod so don't get them too close or you'll pick up on-axis voices a lot louder than those off to the sides. They're basically indestructable so even if someone is unloading a 30 year old pair they should still be perfectly fine. If you've got more to spend then i'll let more experienced folks give their opinions.

Personally i always use condenser mics in this situation. I want the cleanest and flattest recording i can get. I'll soften it with EQ and sometimes a touch of reverb afterwards.
adowrx wrote on 4/24/2006, 6:25 PM
Try renting a pair of some AKG 414's.......the TL, BULS, and BXLS all have their own qualities. Also try a pair of Shure SM 81's for the "accurate" sound.

Neumann KM 184's are also very, very nice especially in an xy. That's another thing that'll have a lot of bearing on the sound (needless to say). Try MS, ORTF and XY to get familiar with the differences.

The SM 81's would be the least expensive of what I've mentioned. They are also very, very worthy regardless of their price.
maylee wrote on 4/24/2006, 10:46 PM
Thank you for your suggestions,
I will try to get my hands on some of them for a trial, but
the actual test will have to be under choir rehearsal
conditions, and of course there could be other variables, such
as the preamps, but I think the biggest factor is the mics
themselves. Some times I believe that the choirs can sound harsh
under certain conditions such as when they are trying to sing
loudly, or when not very skilled at blending together (they are
mostly amateurs!) and the mics accentuate the sound.
So I could be chasing the impossible, and the best thing is to
minimise it by using EQ
I have tried different mic configurations, that does not change
the sound quality. I finally settled on an XY config. for ease
and speed of setup and consistent results.
But to settle things in my mind, I will try other mics.

Thanks again for ideas, they have narrowed my options.

Warren
Chienworks wrote on 4/25/2006, 3:53 AM
XY mic placement is great especially when you have to set up in the back half of the auditorium. I use this often. Another arrangement i use when possible is a pair of mics at about 1/4 and 3/4 positions across the front of the choir, and about as far back as they are apart. I've also used both setups simultaneously, mixing in a small amount from the XY pair to make a fuller blend. When using all four mics keep in mind delay issues. If the XY pair is too far back you'll get a noticeable echo.

The SM-81 is a great mic for live group recording. That model is probably the flattest and truest mic ever produced. It's not terribly expensive, but neither is it a budget microphone. I use Shure LM-16, now sadly discontinued. They're based on the SM-81 design but substantially cheaper. Hmmmm, maybe Shure discontinued them because they were cutting into the SM-81 sales too badly.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 4/25/2006, 3:48 PM
SM57s lack the frequency response and sensitivity for your choir application.

If you find C451EB a bit bright (harsh ?) try Neuman KM84 (not KM184) or Rode NT5. Also ORTF pattern often gives better imaging than XY.

geoff
maylee wrote on 4/25/2006, 4:20 PM
Thanks, Geoff and Chienworks for your further suggestions

Warren
adowrx wrote on 4/25/2006, 6:25 PM
If you go for the 84, you'll have to find it used or MAYBE someone has some new old stock sitting around. The 184 is basically the same mic as the 84 although it is a little brighter.
plasmavideo wrote on 4/28/2006, 1:58 PM
I just picked up a pair of ATI 3031s to record productions at church. I will be trying them out this weekend in either XY or ORTF, depending on where I can set the mics up, and I'll let you know how they work out.
maylee wrote on 4/28/2006, 5:03 PM
Thanks, plasmavideo, I would like to hear how you make out. At he moment I am considering the Rode NT4 for speed of setup (twin capsules in one body, XY config.) Rode mics are developing a good reputation for quality at reasonble prices,I would like to hear from anyone who has used this model.
However, I still have an open mind. So many variables, and what looks good on paper isn't necessarily so.
drbam wrote on 4/28/2006, 8:37 PM
" At he moment I am considering the Rode NT4 for speed of setup (twin capsules in one body, XY config.) Rode mics are developing a good reputation for quality at reasonble prices,I would like to hear from anyone who has used this model."

The thing is built like a tank and if needed, a person could use it as weapon in a street fight. But its a bit dark for my personal tastes. I compared it to a pair of Studio Projects C4s and Oktava MC012s and for me the Rode came in 3rd. There's nothing wrong with it per se, just not "alive" enough for me. The other issue is that you limited to an XY pattern. If the choir is being recorded in an overly bright sounding room though, it may be perfect. If you want a stereo mic as opposed to a pair, take a look at the Studio Projects LSD2 (multipattern) or for less $ the Audio Technica 825 (similar to the Rode but I prefer the sound and is cheaper).

drbam
plasmavideo wrote on 5/3/2006, 12:49 PM
Well, I got a chance to check out the AT3031s over the weekend, but the experiment didn't tell me much. The kids choir moved all over the stage instead of being setup in typical choir fashion, and the mic placement was not optimal at all. I can say that when the kids were singing near the mic setup, they sounded very smooth and not colored in any way that I could detect. They did a credible job of picking up sound from the entire stage as well. I tried both XY and ORTF configurations during the rehersal, and after seeing how the show was going to be staged, I settled on XY.

I also had a chance to try out the AT3035 large capsule mic as well. At the last minute I borrowed one and placed it inbetween some instruments (2 pianos, a bass with amp and drums) off stage. I was amazed at how smooth that mic sounded, considering I just threw it up in front of everything. Later, I used it for some VO work and was blown away at how much depth and clarity it added to my voice. It convinced me to save up some pennies and purchase a pair some day to compliment the 3031s. I don't have a lot of recent experience with the newer generation mics, having spent more time on video since leaving radio, but it they sure sound nice to my ears compared to the much higher priced mics in the past.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but maybe this thread will open up a discussion of the current generation mics.

BTW, the 30XX ATI series are made in Japan, not China, if that makes a difference.

Tom
maylee wrote on 5/3/2006, 6:12 PM
Plasmavideo,
Thanks for getting back to me. I agree with your statement that the newer mics are getting really good for the price, the problem now seems to be that there are many possibilities, without a fistful of mics how to choose?
That's why I appreciate the opinions of users.
My last choral recording was done of a fairly large community choir in a small rural church that was very reverberant. I had my doubts about the sound, but a touch of eq at the high end and believe it or not some small additional reverb and the director was almost ecstatic about the sound - go figure!
He has many years experience as a director and I have known him for about 20.
The preamps were not exceptional, (Mackie 1402 VLZ)
I still do like the idea of a stereo mic for speed of setup.
Could you tell me what preamps you use? These do enter into the picture, but I'm not sure of the total effect, and there is some interaction between preamps and mics from what I read, so again the mic and preamp have to be considered as a pair.

Warren
plasmavideo wrote on 5/4/2006, 7:32 AM
Warren,

I just used a 4 year old Behringer mixer - nothing special. My old camera has a noisy external mic preamp with no line in, so I actually recorded the mixer output to a portable mini-disc and restriped it in post. Not the best solution, but - hey - for a small kids program at our church it wasn't necessary to drag out the DAT machine and complicate life.

I'll will be doing some more "pro" recordings with the mics a bit later in the year at church and I'll be trying them out in some other situations as well and report back.

Suffice to say, for a street price well below $200 per, the mics appear to perform quite well. As I'm in the hobbyist/prosumer/non-profit class of things they fit my budget, and they are definitely better than the on camera mics I've used.

I would love to hear them in comparison to:

A: Equivalent priced AKGs, Rodes, Marshalls, etc

B: Much more expensive mics

C: Some of the single poit stereo mics.

I also would like to try a Rode Videomic for general purpose use when just "shootin' some video"

Tom
wymondham wrote on 5/6/2006, 12:14 PM
I have recorded choirs over a number of years using different mikes. Choir are notalways easy to record, they can be harsh, and you can get intermodulation noise with voices not quite at the same pich. I use AKG 414's in ORTF. That gives me more a feeling of space compared to coincident pairs. Sure choirs are harsh, they are not professionals. Regarding AKG 451's, I have always found them a good mike to use and would not consider dynamic mikes for a choir recording.
wymondham wrote on 5/6/2006, 12:15 PM
I have recorded choirs over a number of years using different mikes. Choir are notalways easy to record, they can be harsh, and you can get intermodulation noise with voices not quite at the same pich. I use AKG 414's in ORTF. That gives me more a feeling of space compared to coincident pairs. Sure choirs are harsh, they are not professionals. Regarding AKG 451's, I have always found them a good mike to use and would not consider dynamic mikes for a choir recording. Try ORTF and try moving the mikes stand in relation to the choir.
wymondham wrote on 5/6/2006, 12:15 PM
I have recorded choirs over a number of years using different mikes. Choir are notalways easy to record, they can be harsh, and you can get intermodulation noise with voices not quite at the same pitch. I use AKG 414's in ORTF. That gives me more a feeling of space compared to coincident pairs. Sure choirs are harsh, they are not professionals. Regarding AKG 451's, I have always found them a good mike to use and would not consider dynamic mikes for a choir recording. Try ORTF and try moving the mikes stand in relation to the choir.