Subject:Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.0?

Posted by: timbre4

Date:4/21/2006 6:53:27 PM

Hello,

I was in a headlong rush to upload ACID entries in the 5.1 contest that ended last night. I remdered them as WMA 9 5.1 files and they appeared to upload just fine.

When I play them from the site OR download and run locally, they are flattened out to 2.0 stereo or possibly *some* center, plenty (too much) sub. Anything for rear sounds in the front. WHAT THE?

I choose:
Windows Media Player V9 (*wma)
Audio: 256 Kbps, 44,100 Hz, 16 Bit, 5.1 Surround.

My system plays DVD-A, SACD 5.1 and the original ACID 5.1 mixes accurately. The MS Windows MediaPlayer 9 test demo files play in 5.1 just fine.

I don't know what's wrong or what to trust here! Anybody know what's wrong??? Thanks in advance

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.0?

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:4/21/2006 8:49:33 PM

If you are loading 5.1 WMA files into ACID or playing them from the preview (explorer), they are downmixed to stereo and the rear channels are folded into the front. The ACID explorer will display whether a WMA file is 5.1 when you click on it (make sure summary view is on) but it is always downmixed for preview or import.

Play them in the Windows Media Player to hear them in all their 5.1 glory.

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.0?

Reply by: timbre4

Date:4/21/2006 9:30:35 PM

Thanks for reply.

Didn't occure to me to play them in Acid. I *was* playing them (either playback from AcidPlanet or copied down to desktop and played from there) through Windows Media Player and not getting 5.1 playback.

Have a M-Audio 410 card that behaves well with other formats but the WMA aspect is new to me. So I've been troubleshooting WMA from every angle.

Went to MS Media Player and made sure the Advanced was set to the M-Audio 410 and speakers were 5.1 and still no dice.

What can I try next?

Thanks, Tim

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/22/2006 10:16:36 AM

Link your entry so that other folks with 5.1 setups can confirm if it rendered properly. It will help determine if it's a playback issue versus a rendering issue.

- Nick

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: timbre4

Date:4/22/2006 10:58:15 AM

Thanks, that's a great idea.

My songs are on AcidPlanet as Pass4Human; here is a link to one of them:

URL = http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=785829&t=9450

Please confirm that you hear my WMA file(s) as 5.1 surround mixes. Any input is appreciated!

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/22/2006 12:14:46 PM

Yep, that is unquestionably 5.1. You have a playback problem.

Can you detail your setup a little more? What's your default Windows sound device? What other sound devices are present? How are your speakers hooked up? What is the speaker setup set to in the Control Panel?

- Nick

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: timbre4

Date:4/24/2006 5:59:06 PM

Nick,

First of all, thanks for confirming that the encoding worked and the files are indeed 5.1. That was the point of the contest after all.

My main PC has the typical Dell integrated audio (desktop CSW speakers) AND an M-Audio 410 card (fed to Denon 5.1 input feeding CSWs around the room. XP knows 5.1 speakers in drop down list.

The Windows MediaPlayer 9 5.1 demo files play fine but not those encoded by myself or other ACID folks. I'm strictly A-B-ing one file right now between the Acid intended and WMP9 delivered...

CLUE: The more I listen, it seems like 3/4 (rear) is missing and 5/6 is also being ghosted to rear channels? I cannot re-route the 410 card in this fashion; would have to change some cables to prove mis-routing of encoded mix.

1. Media Player 9: Tools, Options, Speakers, Properties =
DirectSound: MAudio Delta 410 Multi *seems like only choice?*

Only single drop-down selection possible; results:
DefaultDirect Sound Device
Direct Sound 1/2 Delta-410 = puts 1/2 content to front
Direct Sound 3/4 Delta-410 = puts 1/2 content to rear
Direct Sound 5/6 Delta-410 = puts 1/2 content to ctr/sub
Direct Sound Delta-410 Multi <-------- correct? but not correct!
Direct Sound Delta-410 S/PDIF = N/A

2. ACID 6.0 Options, Preferences, Audio Device = (ACID mix correct)
Analog Out 1/2 Delta-410
Analog Out 3/4 Delta-410
Analog Out 5/6 Delta-410

Thanks, Tim

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: timbre4

Date:4/24/2006 6:07:06 PM

SECOND CLUE:

Just discovered in ACID 6.0 that if I go into Options, Preferences, Audio Devices and change Audio Device Type from M-Audio Delta ASIO to Direct Sound Surround Mapper........................drumroll.......

*original ACID 5.1 file then sounds EXACTLY WRONG in the same ways as WMA does played natively in WMP9...

Hmmm....... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that Direct Sound Surround Mapper thinks 3/4 is center/sub and 5/6 is rears.

Does anybody know if that is the true convention? I'll start Googling

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: MarkWWWW

Date:4/25/2006 5:33:37 AM

Microsoft's standard channel assignment for 5.1 surround is:
1: Left Front
2: Right Front
3: Centre
4: LFE
5: Left Rear
6: Right Rear
and anything encoded into one of Microsoft's file formats should follow this scheme.

Many other suppliers, however, adopt the scheme:
1: Front Left
2: Front Right
3: Rear Left
4: Rear Right
5: Centre
6: LFE
so you need to know which channel assignment scheme is used by the material you are dealing with, though your playback software should ideally be able to cope with this for you.

There is also another scheme, much less common, which uses:
1: Left Front
2: Centre
3: Right Front
4: Left Rear
5: Right Rear
6: LFE

I like the second of these three schemes best (it seems more logical to me) but it and the third one seem to be becoming less common now and the Microsoft-style channel layout is becoming the most common.

Mark

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: timbre4

Date:4/25/2006 1:40:01 PM

Mark,

Thanks for reply! Wondered what the MS "standard" would be and you confirmed it. At no point does it ask or tell you this that I can see.

I do believe this is the problem; I'm also a disciple of the 2nd method and a victim of the 1st in the encoding.

I suspect that when I get time to re-encode with the 1st channel assignment this matter will clear up. I'll post results.

Subject:RE: Rendering 5.1 WMA files and they sound 2.

Reply by: timbre4

Date:4/25/2006 6:32:59 PM

Well.....

Swapping 3/4 with 5/6 did NOT fix the WMA 5.1 playback issue. I changed the output bus assignments in ACID and then re-rendered as WMA9 256 5.1 and it still came out wrong.

<sigh>

I have this feeling that I need to re-check all my cables between PC, switchbox (DVDA player, PC, SACD player) and Denon receiver. Could be swapped before switchbox and swapped back on the way to the receiver input? (example of two wrongs making a right)

But then, why do the WMA demo 5.1 files on Microsoft's webpage play just fine as I have it now?