Subject:Joining Clips

Posted by: danika

Date:4/14/2006 2:27:17 PM

Now that you can have multiple clips per track, you should be able to join them with the "join" command. The help text implies this when it says:

"If you're joining events that use distinct clips, the space between the clips is filled with the media from the first clip."

However, what in fact happens is that the data in the first clip overwrites the second.

As a matter of fact the example in the help text is kind of funny. On one line it shows a picture of clips Guitar 01 and Guitar 02. On the next line it shows the two clips joined. However, if you look at the data on the second line, it is clearly all from the first clip.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: danika

Date:4/19/2006 12:15:16 PM

<bump> This is pretty obviously a bug, but I have never see a confirmation from Sony. Joining two clips could be very useful if it worked correctly.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: CineGobs

Date:4/19/2006 1:09:16 PM

I'm not sure this is a bug. A single event can only contain a single audio clip.

Bo

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Klirrfaktor

Date:4/20/2006 1:09:05 AM

i think there should be the abillity to "join" events but not like merging them.. more like make them a single unit - say grouping them. in cubase that feature is called a part when i remember right. pretty helpful if you have a lot of short events and you like to move them all at once or repeat them as grouped events. joining clips is only a feature to re-merge clips after having cutted them before... IMO

there should be a so called "virtual" event which can contain different "real" events. like i have 4 single bass drum kicks in a big virtual event and therefore be able to move these events all at once.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Djipy

Date:4/20/2006 1:59:39 AM

Joining clips is very strange, indeed.

Insert 2 different audio clips A and B (loops).

Joining A+B gives AA : it should be AB !
Joining A+blank+B gives AAA but should be AAB (as explained in the user manual).

However, if a clip A is splitted into A1 and A2, joining A1 and A2 works as expected.

If the clip A or B is a one-shot, joining A and B gives A + a blank section to the length of B. It should give AB without any muted part.

So, joining parts of a same clip seems to be OK but joining two different clips gives very odd results.

Bugs or illogical implementation ? I don't know.
IMO, these issues must be analyzed and fixed, because the Join tool works in a stupid way, obviously.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: randygo

Date:4/20/2006 9:32:41 AM

>i think there should be the abillity to "join" events but not like merging them..
>more like make them a single unit - say grouping them

Vegas has the ability to group events as you describe. Sony has mentioned in this forum that they are considering the feature for a future release. I expect the remaining event editing features from Vegas to eventually make their way into Acid.

Cheers,

Randy

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/20/2006 11:42:16 AM

ACID's online help mentions:

"If you're joining events that use distinct clips, events will be joined using the media from the first selected clip."

This works as mentioned. This is similar to the way ACID worked in previous versions (as the "one sample per track" paradigm applied). Even if you cut the media to pieces, the media simply is replaced beginning with the first selected event (and the looped from there).

If it was done any other way, it would involve making new media from two or more distinct samples. (And we already have that with the "render to new track" command.) I'd rather have the grouping feature Vegas has.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Djipy

Date:4/20/2006 2:13:59 PM

I cannot find this mention in the online manual.
All I have found is :
If you're joining events that use distinct clips, the space between the clips is filled with the media from the first clip.
I agree with this.

However, the PDF manual explains the Join technique in a different manner (see page 64) : You can also select the first and the last events you want to join, creating an event selection range. But no word about the repeated first clip or the spaces between clips.

In my opinion, the way clips are joined is stupid and useless. Or can someone explain ? It's very odd.
Maybe a programming bug or a wrong implementation design ?
Peter ?

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: billybk

Date:4/20/2006 7:04:33 PM

The wording could have been made clearer, in the online help file. It is confusing. I believe the real intent, is as described, in the ACID Pro 6 PDF manual, under "Joining Events":

"You may join events on ACID tracks that have been segmented along the timline. Joining events is an efficient way to redraw an event and remove any splits or silent regions between events."

There is also a reference picture to demonstrate it. (which is different from the online help file). All the files on each track are the same and are only split up/segmented from each other. It does not appear the intent is too be able to join different media types or files, but only the same referenced media. I guess it is just a quicker way to extend an event than using the paint tool. If you have a 4 bar drum loop @ measure 17 and the same 4 bar loop @ measure 42 and you decide to have that drum loop continous, between those measures, instead of drawing it out, on the track, you can select those two events and press "J" and those empty measures (or what ever was in them previously) will be auto filled in (joined). I think to join two or more distinct events would require you to "render" it first, thereby creating a brand new clip or media, before using it.

I agree the way it is described, in the online help file is confusing.

Cheers,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/21/2006 4:20:56 AM

I know exactly what you guys are getting at, you want a no fuss way to create a ‘virtual clip’ out of subclips.

It is frustrating that the join command doesn’t do this because it would be an awesome feature. Hopefully by A7 it will.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Djipy

Date:4/21/2006 9:28:52 AM

With the possibility of multiple clips on a track, we can expect a more powerful Join function.

The Join can undo a Split : in this case, it works like expected.

However, I see unexpected and not intuitive behaviors when joining :
- Different clips
- Parts of a previously splitted clip, in a different order
- Parts of a previously splitted clip, with additional blank sections

The Join function works in different ways, depending on the origin and the type of the sub-clips... That's confusing and not really handy.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/21/2006 10:25:33 AM

A request:

Review how MIDI events/clips are joined and let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Peter

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Djipy

Date:4/21/2006 1:00:00 PM

Peter,

The MIDI clips are joined as expected : A+B+C=ABC, A+(blank)+B=A(blank)B, etc... It's intuitive and a normal behavior.

The join of audio clips should be handled in the same way for the function be handy and useful, in my opinion.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/21/2006 2:27:35 PM

Yeah baby, the MIDI join is awesome!!!

It seems to work intelligently in regards to the newly created event’s loop region as well.

Pretty please with sugar on top can we get that for audio too.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/22/2006 10:42:46 AM

Hmm. How would that be done for digital audio? Wouldn't a new audio file have to be created? MIDI is just a reference; digital audio is the real deal. You obviously don't want to replace the original audio...

And how would a newly joined digital audio snippet be ACIDized? Would it use the same principle as bouncing down?

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:4/22/2006 1:08:35 PM

Well, actually, MIDI is the real deal too. It's just as real a file on the timeline as audio is. I think the difference though is that MIDI files are so tiny in comparison that they can be processed, combined, and a new file written so quickly that it's possible to be done without slowing the UI down noticeably. MIDI files also don't need to be ACIDized.

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/22/2006 1:36:57 PM

Actually no. Standard MIDI Files are not a streaming format. The MIDI data needs to be converted before it is playable. ACID imports MIDI files into an internal format and never uses the file again. When you paint, edit, record, or otherwise manipulate MIDI data you are changing memory and not directly accessing any file.

When the join command is made on MIDI events, a new clip and event with copies of all things exposed by the original events is created and then placed on the time line.

Peter

Subject:RE: Joining Clips

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/22/2006 1:44:42 PM

Audio files are stopping and starting, fading in and out and doing all sorts of things all the time anyway.

I don’t think there are any new files being created, event’s are just references to segments of media. It doesn’t matter how much or how little data is contained in the media itself the event just points to it.

I can’t see how it would makes any difference to the program whether you manually put a bunch of different one shots one straight after the other or they were put there as part of a ‘joined’ event.

[edit]...Or (given what PCH just wrote) maybe there is a slight difference... :)