Subject:Building a new DAW : What about this one

Posted by: Zacchino

Date:4/19/2006 9:32:22 AM

Hi there,

I'm planning on building a new DAW. After a whole month of research and bragging and information collection, here's what I've decided to buy :


Processor
AMD Opteron 175
Socket 939 2,2Ghz Dual Core
Cache L2 2x1024Ko

Motherboard
Asus A8R32-MVP Deluxe
Chipset ATI Crossfire Xpress 3200
Specs Link

PowerSupply
Seasonic S12 500HT ATX 500 Watts
Specs Link

Processor Fan/Heatsink Combo
Zalman CNPS9500 LED
Specs Link
OR
Thermalright SI-120 + Nexus Silent Case Fan 120mm
Specs Link + Specs Link

ATX Case
Antec Performance One P180 Black
Specs Link

LCD Screen
2 x Samsung Syncmaster 930BF (4ms)
Specs Link

DVD Writer
Plextor PX-716AL (Slot-in)
Specs Link

S-ATA II Hard Drive Disk
Seagate ST3400633AS
400Go 7200RPM
Cache 16Mo – 12ms

Note that I already have a PCI-e Graphic Card, and 2Go of Samsung PC3200 DDRAM, and 2 Seagate 160Go S-ATA Hard Drive.

I'll probably be plugging in an M-Audio ProjectMix I/O (FireWire 400).
I'll be mainly using Sony Acid Pro 6.0, along with Tascam GigaStudio Orchestra 3 and many high-end plugins (URS, Sonalksis, Waves, Convultion Reverbs).

So I'm aiming at a multitask DAW (if it wasn't obvious ^^). The question is : am I aiming right with this setup ?

Thanx in advance for your feedback !

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: kbruff

Date:4/19/2006 9:40:34 AM

That will definetly work -- I also recommend a separate mastering grade stereo sound card -- such as

Frontier
Digital Audio Labs
RME

Furthermore a UPS for power protection
finally and the most important of all....

A very intelligent backup architecture

After that then your set to go at it!

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/19/2006 9:57:11 AM

I have a similar setup with a single core, so I can assure you that your system will purr. The 2 gigs of RAM with the dual core are your biggest assets toward that. Keep in mind that if you're going to be installing WinXP 32-bit, you've essentially maxed out your RAM, but by the time you'd have a need to put more in, the apps you'll be running will probably support a 64-bit version Windows (what ever version is out at that time) by then.

Make sure you're using S-ATA 2 cables for your hard disk. Manufacturer's will sometimes be cheap and only include S-ATA 1 cables. I'd recommend partitioning up your large disk for both organizational and performance reasons. For example, have a partition for your samples, one for your recordings, another for your temp, etc. It will also make defragging and searching much faster, because at 400 gigs, it'll take a while.

Also, do you have a backup drive? If not, why not? :) Western Digital has a bunch of affordable one-touch backups. You only need to use it once for it to be worth it.

Your fans are all rated quiet enough, although keep in mind that "silent" means "below ambient room noise" which means "below 40dB". Also, with that Zalman fan, make sure you're not transporting or moving the PC. Because of its excessive weight, you'll easily crack your CPU without extreme care, especially since it will be hanging sideways.

Make sure that PCI-e card has a quiet, multi-speed fan (I can't see why it wouldn't). It will be the loudest fan in the bunch until it spins down. AMD processors are very good at staying quiet. Make sure Cool N' Quiet is enabled in BIOS, though. Also, make sure that you have AMD's power stepping driver installed. It literally made an impact on my electric bill.

Also, if by "multitask" you mean that you'll be running office/game stuff on this as well, make a separate Windows profile for that. It'll keep most of the registry information separate to decrease the chance of your pro audio stuff clashing with your non-audio stuff.

- Nick

Edit: Oh yeah. Also use a round IDE cable for your DVD drive and zip-tie your cables together to promote air flow through the case. And replace the air filters in your house regularly. Your computer will thank you. :)

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/19/2006 10:12:06 AM

Well, at least you're not skimping. ;)

Seriously, I echo what Kevin and Nick said. I assume you're going to augment rather than replace your current setup? I mention this because your specs show a pretty peppy system as is.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:4/19/2006 2:31:18 PM

Guys you're all great, thanx for all these fast feedback !

To KBruff :

>That will definetly work -- I also recommend a separate
>mastering grade stereo sound card -- such as, Frontier, Digital,
>Audio Labs or RME

What do you mean by mastering grade stereo soundcard ? Isn't an M-Audio ProjectMix I/O (FireWire 400) enough ? I've also heard the RME Fireface is excellent... But I need a control surface.. I mean.. I'd really like to have all these little motorized faders ^^.

>Furthermore a UPS for power protection

Ow I've thought about an UPS Power Protection but I'll just buy this in a second part.

>A very intelligent backup architecture

Well I guess I'll try a Firewire Drive... What do you think about it ? As (enterprise type) Tape Backup is really too expensive.

To nlamartina :

>by the time you'd have a need to put more (ram) in, the apps
>you'll be running will probably support a 64-bit version Windows
>(what ever version is out at that time) by then.

You're right on that point. This motherboard only accepts 4Gb Max of ram max. I've only seen the Tyan MoBo with 16Gb Max. I know it's up to me. If I need more than 4Gb in 2007/8, then I'm screwed... But maybe that by now I'll be ready to build a better system. I don't really know if I'm taking a big risk on this one.

>Make sure you're using S-ATA 2 cables for your hard disk.
>Manufacturer's will sometimes be cheap and only include S-ATA 1
>cables.

Ow great, that's the kind of tip that worth gold. When you find myself home with the missing cable after an afternoon of shopping, you're just screwed ! Thanx for the reminder !

>I'd recommend partitioning up your large disk for both
>organizational and performance reasons.

I was wondering about this one... You're talking about partitionning the big 400Gb SATA II Hard drive right ? Not the other two 160Ggb SATA I drive ? Well I plan to go like this :
1st 160GB Drive = System and Apps
2nd 160Gb Drive = Projects (.acd files with all its related medias, .gsp gigastudio project files, and record takes)
3nd 400Gb Drive = Medias (samples, libraries, gigs, nkis, .dat and so on...)
So In this case, do you think I'll really need to partition my 400Gb Hard Drive ?

>Also, do you have a backup drive? If not, why not? :)

This is really important indeed and I won't skip that point ! I don't want any bad jokes from my hard drives in production :-s

>Western Digital has a bunch of affordable one-touch backups
>You only need to use it once for it to be worth it.

I don't know how trusty the Western Digital drives are. I know the Seagate are pretty solid... But you tell me. What's a "one-touch" backup ? Is it a program embedded with the hard dirve ?

>Your fans are all rated quiet enough, although keep in mind
>that "silent" means "below ambient room noise" which
>means "below 40dB".

I know. And unfortunately, I don't trust Watercooling. And unfortunately in this world, we didn't find any solution for home computers heat dissipation more reliable than fans... That's really sad.

>Also, with that Zalman fan, make sure you're not transporting or
>moving the PC. Because of its excessive weight, you'll easily crack
>your CPU without extreme care, especially since it will be hanging
>sideways.

Ouch !!! This might be a really nasty sound I really don't wanna hear. Well I keep this in mind, but I'm still hesitating between the Zalman and the Thermalright solutions... I've read in review that the Thermalright is quiter (silentpcreview.com). But both must be treated with care anyway.


>Make sure that PCI-e card has a quiet, multi-speed fan (I can't
>see why it wouldn't). It will be the loudest fan in the bunch until it
>spins down.

Hopefully, my current PCI-e Graphic Card is Fanless... It's a PowerColor Bravo X700. Well actually, I took the tiny fan off but the heatsink does a fair job. I'll maybe buy a Zalman GPU passive cooler if I feel like it's really burning in this setup.

>AMD processors are very good at staying quiet. Make sure Cool
>N' Quiet is enabled in BIOS, though.

Trust me, whenever I see the "silent" or "quiet" keyword, I automaticly wanna turn it on (I once dreamt my ex-girlfriend had this function ^^).

>Also, make sure that you have AMD's power stepping driver
>installed. It literally made an impact on my electric bill.

Oh yes the electric bill... Nowdays it should really be free. If you say so, I'll definitely install this drivers.

>Also, if by "multitask" you mean that you'll be running
>office/game stuff on this as well, make a separate Windows profile
>for that. It'll keep most of the registry information separate to
>decrease the chance of your pro audio stuff clashing with your non-
>audio stuff.

Man, that's the most wise tip I ever heard. I'll certainly do this. Especially since I'm using internet times to times as you can see.

>Edit: Oh yeah. Also use a round IDE cable for your DVD drive
>and zip-tie your cables together to promote air flow through the
>case.

Will definitely do. I mean, I really don't wanna hear my cables making love with the fans.


To mD :

> I assume you're going to augment rather than replace your
>current setup?

For me it's more like a good upgrade isn't it ?

>I mention this because your specs show a pretty peppy system
>as is.

I like my current setup, it's a good setup. But as it's all in a Shuttle SB81P Barebone, it tends to overheat A LOT. E.G. I suspect a lot of crashes of Acid 6.0 being related to this (that's why I don't always feel like reporting these issues, even if I never had any issue with Cubase SX3 on this setup). Everytime my computer freezes (let's say, 1 time a week), it's because the CPU is peaking.

But I guess that between a P4 3.4Ghz HT and an AMD Opteron 175 Dual Core with 2Mb of cache, I'll feel the change... What do you think ?

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/19/2006 5:31:22 PM

I don't know how trusty the Western Digital drives are. I know the Seagate are pretty solid... But you tell me. What's a "one-touch" backup ? Is it a program embedded with the hard dirve ?

I recommended it because that's what I have experience with, and it's been perfect. Historically I use Maxtor inside my computers, but the ones I have right now were some bottom-shelf klunkers, and while they've not terrible, I'd really like to replace them with something that's made for this kind of abuse. Their SMART logs aren't showing me encouraging data.

What's a "one-touch" backup ? Is it a program embedded with the hard dirve ?

Sorta. I use this drive for backup purposes. I have all my critical directories saved to a script file already, so all I have to do is plug the drive in, turn it on, and double-click the script. That's it. The backup software it comes with is very nice, if a little hard to use at first. Alternatively, you can click the buttons on the front to do manual or automatic backups, but I opted for the script so that I didn't need to have the background services running.

I also keep the drive in a fireproof, dual-lock and double-bolt safe when I'm not using it. I rest better at night that way. :)

So In this case, do you think I'll really need to partition my 400Gb Hard Drive ?

You don't have to, but in the case that you don't, I'd highly recommend letting Windows index it for you. That way you won't have to wait 5 minutes while Acid/Vegas searches for a missing file. Also, when formatting this disk, put the block size to the max (IIRC it's 64K), since all of your samples will be over this size. It'll make things slightly faster.

I've read in review that the Thermalright is quiter

You can probably run the Thermalright fan slower because of the higher-density fins, but it has a higher profile than the Zalman, and it's still pretty big. Both are the size of small dinner plates. If you can, get the case first and make measurements, although if it's being manufactured by somebody, they're already aware of the space restrictions.

- Nick

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: b4dawn

Date:4/19/2006 7:41:43 PM

Backup. I have tried Ghost and it's upgrades, I've tried other backups.

After much experience in the crashing field, I just decided I can't do it anymore. The last one I had took me six weeks to get where I was again.

I also tried the Seagate one touch backup system.

My problem was that all the backup systems got corrupted in one way or another. I got my files back but really what good is it unless you can be up and running in a couple of hours.

Someone mentioned Acronis. I was very skeptical and gunshy. I tried the demo and this software had clone drive on it. I had recently purchased a dual core system and had the Seagate drive so I put Acronis to the test. My drives are mostly 250's sata's, with some smaller, 160 and down.

I ran the test on the Seagate 160 one touch. I transferred everything from the Seagate to sata 250. I came to a little under the 160 gig mark. I used Acronis.

It knew that the Seagate was 160. It knew that the sata was 250. I tried the clone feature. In less than 40 minutes, the Seagate was a clone to the under 160, 250.

I booted from the Seagate and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. with the system drive off line and uplugged, my computer booted and ran with all the programs transferred from the 250.

Still skeptical, I ordered a Seagate STE 250 quiet drive from New Egg. I mounted the drive in my computer.

I used Acronis to make a clone of the new sata 250. I unplugged the old drive, power cable and sata connect and put the new Seagate on line. It booted perfectly, all the programs down to the last bit were there.

Here is my weekly procedure. I connect the Seagate back inside the computer up, (power cable and sata cable to the #2 sata slot on the board. I load Acronis. It sees both drives as c/d and g/h. I go to Acronis and select clone drive, I confirm four steps and it clones the new sata drive. Every once in a while, I check the intergrity of the cloned drive. Perfect.

I unplug the power and sata cable from the cloned drive from the mobo, so it is out of the reach of everything.

This works for me, it might not for you. I have a Gateway, 835m Intel, dual core, 2 gig ram, two sata 250 drives. The computer cost 839., the extra drive from New Egg, 100., Acronis was about $40., ram was about 130.

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:4/20/2006 5:53:49 AM

To nlamartina :
>so all I have to do is plug the drive in, turn it on, and double-click
>the script. That's it.

That's sweet !!! Is this a vbs script ? Do you use it along with SuperCopier (a software that boost the native Windows XP Cut/Paste interface to make it more stable) ?

>but I opted for the script so that I didn't need to have the >background services running.

I'm just like you, I don't like background services running for nothing all day long ^^

>I also keep the drive in a fireproof, dual-lock and double-bolt
>safe when I'm not using it. I rest better at night that way. :)

That's three great features !!! Man I'll definitely take a look at this Western Digital Drive !

>I'd highly recommend letting Windows index it for you.

I don't really like Windows' Indexing function, but then I guess that it'll be mandatory for a 400gb drive as you said...

>Also, when formatting this disk, put the block size to the max (IIRC
>it's 64K), since all of your samples will be over this size. It'll make
>things slightly faster.

I knew this trick !!! I knew it ! I learnt it from a Tascam PDF as far as I remember. You're talking about the Cluster size when formatting a HDD in NTFS Right ? Then all my audio-only drives will be with a 64K cluster size.

I've read in review that the Thermalright is quiter

>If you can, get the case first and make measurements,
>although if it's being manufactured by somebody, they're already
>aware of the space restrictions.

Will do. Thanx for all these tips Nick, you seem to know your stuff very well. BTW, how's Acid 6.0 acting on your DAW ? Do you get good performance results since they revamped the engine ?

To CharlieSolak :
I'll be answering your post tonight, cuz I have few questions about your ghosting software. It looks really amazing...

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/20/2006 11:53:07 AM

"For me it's more like a good upgrade isn't it ?

I like my current setup, it's a good setup. But as it's all in a Shuttle SB81P Barebone, it tends to overheat A LOT. E.G. I suspect a lot of crashes of Acid 6.0 being related to this (that's why I don't always feel like reporting these issues, even if I never had any issue with Cubase SX3 on this setup). Everytime my computer freezes (let's say, 1 time a week), it's because the CPU is peaking.

But I guess that between a P4 3.4Ghz HT and an AMD Opteron 175 Dual Core with 2Mb of cache, I'll feel the change... What do you think ?"

Apparently, it sounds like the Shuttle has a cooling problem. I have a P4 3.0 GHz HT with a 1 GB of RAM and mine purrs like a kitten with ACID Pro 6. (I'm using an Antec standard AT chassis, so...) I don't why your CPU would peak as that CPU should be plenty powerful enough.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/20/2006 1:17:49 PM

That's sweet !!! Is this a vbs script ?

No, it's a lot easier than that. The backup software has a ton of functions and different ways that I can choose to backup (like archive, duplicate, update, etc). In the software, I choose what I want to backup, how to do it, where to put it, and what to do under certain circumstances. The program then exports this set of commands as a document-like file that I can just double-click to run. There's a shortcut on my desktop to make it even easier.

That's three great features !!!

Hehe, the safe doesn't come with the drive, of course. :) The drive fits very easily though, and it can be stood vertically or horizontally to make things easier.

I don't really like Windows' Indexing function, but then I guess that it'll be mandatory for a 400gb drive as you said...

I've found that indexing isn't too bad as long as the drive contents stays consistent and you've got plenty of I/O overhead, so for disks that are going to be long-term storage for samples, indexing is pretty transparent, and the value it adds when searching for files it immense, especially for drives that size.

You're talking about the Cluster size when formatting a HDD in NTFS Right ?

Yes, that's what I meant. And yes, absolutely go with NTFS. Why some people still insist on using FAT32 for AV work is beyond me.

BTW, how's Acid 6.0 acting on your DAW ?

As perfect as could be, even with all the crap I plug into it. In most ways, it handles my mammoth projects much better. It can definitely take a greater beating that previous versions. I think I mentioned it in another thread, but I can keep the latency of my ASIO driver down to 4ms until the project memory usage passes 1.75 gigs. Acid 5 couldn't do that. Not even close.

- Nick

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:4/21/2006 3:03:35 AM

To CharlieSolak :

>It knew that the Seagate was 160. It knew that the sata was
>250. I tried the clone feature. In less than 40 minutes, the Seagate
>was a clone to the under 160, 250.I booted from the Seagate and I
>couldn't believe what I was seeing. with the system drive off line
>and uplugged, my computer booted and ran with all the programs
>transferred from the 250.

Now THAT is amaizing ! I saw the website, but it doesn't answer a few important questions :
1. Does it keep all your program preferences stocked in the registry as well as the one in the My Documents & Settings folder ?
2. What about Windows XP's licence ? Doesn't the registration depends on the hardware ?
3. You didn't have any issues/conflicts with the previous hardware drivers of the first setup ? Isn't the registry freeking out ?

To nlamartina :
>In the software, I choose what I want to backup, how to do it,
>where to put it, and what to do under certain circumstances. The
>program then exports this set of commands as a document-like
>file that I can just double-click to run

This trick is really impressive. I'll definitely buy this hardware along with Acronys True Image Backup and Clone Drive.

>so for disks that are going to be long-term storage for samples,
> indexing is pretty transparent

I also was thinking about indexing the sample library hard drive (so the 400Gb one).

>it handles my mammoth projects much better

You can't beat mine ^^. It's so huge, that I decided for some of them to break them into several .acd project (battery, voice, violin parts, etc.). I didn't try to open them yet in Acid Pro 6.0 : I'm waiting for the first 6.0a fix. But what you're telling me is really promising !

PS : Thanx to everyone for all this great feedback !

Subject:RE: Building a new DAW : What about this one

Reply by: kbruff

Date:4/21/2006 9:23:53 AM

Hi Zacchino:

Mastering grade sound card -- should be used during mastring only -- if you use PM I/O all the time you may not realize all the sonic suttleties which exist in your mix.

Yes RME is great -- and DAL is also very awesom and works very well with Sony Tools!

Norton Ghost Pro -- so that you can create a image and relay the data files of the entire system even from a separate computer

HD 1 -- SYSTEM
HD 2 -- SYSTEM Mirror drive (either GHOST / direct incremental backup)
HD 3 -- Dedicate Sample Drive (WAVE / MP3 / proprietary software samples)
HD 4 -- Scratch drive for recording (eventually you move the files to the main project directory on your HD 1), It will be acked up automaticaly with the back software. There are many folder synchronizing tools to make this super easy.

Optical drive - 1 DVD Dual Layer (Plextor Model: TBD)
Optical drive - 2 DVD Dual Layer (Pioneer Model: TBD)
Select different drives in case of ocassional model related goof-ups

Using IDE is fine -- SATA is ok but not yet fully tested with various DAW tools (Pro-Tools -- which you may consider since you have the PM I/O).

A ATA rise card works fine

You can patch in the HD--3 and HD--4 and the OD--1, and OD--2

I have all maxtor drives and two Memorex Burners, with a maxtor ATA card.

Furthemore I have a DAL Card Deluxe Sound Card / MA AP192

The system works very well except for FAN NOISE.

Now I am just watching the whole SONY paradigm -- it is hard to judge the future of this stuff -- unlike DigiDesign and M-Audio which are clear and clean tools for Audio Production from Concept to Completion.

OHHH -- one last thing you will certainly NEED !!!!
A cheap table top stereo -- with CD / Cassette player and hopefully a line in.

You should always audition your finalized Audio on target system something similiar to what a typical customer would use.

Here is a clever scheme -- you can locally broad cast audio to a standard radio utilizing 88.1 FM, this will help to see how your music actually be heard by a typical radio listener!
You should audition many forms

CD playback -- direct from your Optical Drive
MP3
WMA
and straight 44.1 KHZ from the flatened CD compliant file!

There is one last thing to consder --- a portable audio player most likely MP3 / WMA player (up to 320 Kbps for "CD Transparent playback") with a little FM transmitter to again simulate the Fm broadcast playback on various home and car stereos which have the ability to acquire audio from the user 88.1 Fm channel!

Now your not just in perfect audio world but you can quickly get realtime sense of just your stuff sounds out sound of the production room.

Thanks - for your time -

OH -- one more thing there are some really cool --
Kits for cleaning your computer -- Electronic Dust and Particulates can harm the optical drives and the motherboard (It does happen!) an annual cleaning will be very helpful!

See ya!