Subject:Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Posted by: drbam

Date:4/4/2006 7:04:16 AM

I've been monitoring the forum about Acid 6 with great interest but have yet to read anything about the editing features. Supposedly-hopefully, Vegas's superb editing was to be integrated into Acid 6. If this is not the case then I personally have no need or desire to upgrade. Would those of you who regularly work with Vegas, especially doing complex audio editing, please comment on this? Yes I know I could download the demo, but given some of the install problems people are reporting, I'd just as soon not go through that hassle, especially if the editing features are not what I require.

Thanks!

drbam

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: Spheris

Date:4/4/2006 8:04:45 AM

Editing appears to be 1:1 with vegas 6.0d's current abilities, Same integration as Vegas and previous ACid versions for Forge edits as well. Envelopes function the same for audio and exceed what Steinberg and Cakewalk offer in usability and extensibility from use so far.

Bam, is it worth it? It's going to be a question of what you do personally. It's a custom fit for scoring work and mixed media development. No install problems here and no side effects to note either aside that the vst support now exceeds the vegas and forge capabilities (if you consider that a minus) with the catch that unlike the vegas 6 update - the support dll for acid is not compatible with vegas or forge so I'm betting Forge will be getting an update for peer support on that end sooner than later

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/4/2006 8:25:51 AM

Thanks Spheris!! That's somewhat reassuring. However, I just read in another post that you can't drag/drop an event from one track to another - you have to copy/paste. I'm very disappointed to hear this! I move events around like crazy in Vegas and its one of the features that sets it aside from other apps. Oh well. . .

Anyone else??

drbam

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: Ben 

Date:4/4/2006 1:38:55 PM

drbam - not being able to drag events between different tracks is a complete deal-breaker for me. I'm in fact a little confused how ACID 6 can be described as a multitrack without the ability to do this?! I'm very happy with the new MIDI functionality, but as a multitrack editor, ACID still falls far, far short of Vegas, much to my disappointment. Here's just some standard Vegas editing things you can't do in ACID:

- Ripple, in it's current Vegas 6 implementation, including post-edit ripple. (The ACID ripple is extremely basic, circa Vegas version 3)

- Event grouping

- Move events between tracks

- Event mute

- Although ACID obviously has extensive stretching features, it lacks all the CTRL-stretch and right-click stretching options we have in Vegas for 'normal' or one-shot events.

- The trimmer. I know not everyone seems to use this, but - especially for editing voice over sessions - I use the trimmer extensively.

- The event channel options we have in Vegas.

- Event normalize

- Graphic representations of event volume and fades

- Right click+drag from Explorer to another event to add as a take.

- A media pool/project media window

- All the event take options we have in Vegas (not sure yet if these are in ACID 6?)

- Normal Explorer Window audio preview. ACID still tries to loop and ACIDize the file you're previewing - I expected an option on this window for ACID-like behaviour or a normal preview. This makes previewing regular audio files impossible in the Explorer.

There may well be more, but that's all I have for now.

I do think it's odd to have left out so many of these Vegas audio essentials which would have fully completed ACID on the audio side and truly make it a competitive DAW in my opinion. I really hope Sony are serious about completing this transition of ACID to a serious multitrack DAW. If they want to keep us audio guys happy, they need to at least incorporate all these Vegas features, and then go further and work on the other stuff needed to complete the picture - like the mixer routing weaknesses we've all been mentioning for years.

To answer your quesiton in a nutsheel drbram - it's crazy that Sony's video editing software currently has more powerful audio editoring functionality than their DAW!

Ben

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: H2000

Date:4/4/2006 2:01:48 PM

Ben, I understand that you want all of Vegas in Acid. Many people probably do. Hell, I do! But, you realize this is a fairly substantial update for Acid. There are a ton of new things and the fact that it is headed in the direction of DAW instead of "loop tool" is a huge positive.

Being that you are used to Vegas, it will be tough. But, these are all features which can be added in the future and you know they will work the way you want them to. That's just the way things have worked out with the SF/Sony products.

BTW: I think you misunderstood regarding moving events between tracks:
As much as I would love to see the ability to drag an event to another track, it is possible to cut/copy and paste events to other tracks. You just can't drag them (don't know why, hope to see it soon).

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: CDM

Date:4/4/2006 2:06:36 PM

Ben -
while I completely agree with you that all of Vegas' editing capabilities need to be added to Acid, this update has an emormous amount of new features and is a huge shift from older versions of Acid. They bit off what they could for now to create an incredible upgrade. I'm sure Acid 7 will have a LOT more of the Vegas-like editing capabilities. But, in the mean time, there's a lot of awesome stuff in here and without feeling bloated. Hats off to the Acid team for continuing to make it a streamlined app with an enormous amount of power under the hood.

That having been said, there BETTER be all the Vegas-like editing functionality in the next version, now that we've jumped to the next level.

Dragging from and to tracks? I agree, should be in this version.

cdm

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: Spheris

Date:4/4/2006 2:23:09 PM

Ben,

Have to agree with the event grouping - that is a shortcoming. But the nesting and other features do seem to make up for and work in some ways much more flexibly

the ripple though I'm not entirely sold on it being a DAW feature as much as a video feature

I'm a little confused about the event mute. I'd have to ask for elaboration on that

move events between tracks - never accurate manually (c&p always the better option)

trimmer, can't comment on it. but do understand some would miss it

Graphic representations of event volume and fades - are we looking at the same screen?

event normalise - could be debated as to whether it was ever a good idea to have. I was never a fan of it vs doing proper rms normalisations in forge or batched from the group files. As it is - one of the least features I've ever liked in vegas. Makes for poor engineering

media manager is better integrated, check the views and customisations for its pane. I think you'll find they traded some of its bulk for efficiency by trimming it down from start up in your face status.

I agree though that Vegas does still hold an edge over Acid as a pure "console audio" platform. But outside of the trimmer. I see nothing but improvements over some of the over achievement and learning curve items that vegas has had through 6. This fits the grand majority of the wish list I saw from the vegas 6 launch and then a few more things than asked for. All in all. It's almost entirely new if you think it over from what it's gained.

Frame accurate score capability (something argued hotly in the vegas forum if it would ever surface as a vegas feature)

A refined vegas engine (rather than steinbergs/digidesigns - lets recycle anything till it falls on its sword approach) and more midi functionality than I recall actually being asked for when they put up the wishlist request last year. Not perfect - nothing is..But a spectacular new start for Acid. Funny enough a better start in that so few problems have surfaced so far. A few video driver glitches, one or two out of spec vsti's. A far far cry from some launches of new, much less revised programs.

I do believe the streamlining was the smartest part of the changes in acid. I doubt anyone would be thrilled by the bulk of a non thought out vegas retro fit that didn't address some workflow issues of vegas versions past for production environments.

With the exception of the trimmer - I still view it as a 1:1 editing peer for vegas (audio) and in its streamlining - a much more efficient workflow that I have no doubt will see its way into the next vegas version as well. I think this fits perfectly with what's becoming a hotbutton issue - workflow.

Fine and well all the toys and options but now we need to get the work done. I think that's going to drive even more streamlining and that can only be a good thing

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: randygo

Date:4/4/2006 2:52:20 PM

Chopper is almost like Trimmer. If I could drag a hilighted region from Chopper onto any track then I would be pleased. As it is now, Chopper is really only usable for events on the source track, not other tracks. I have not found a way to chop part of an event from one track to another...

Dragging events between tracks is a curious and obvious ommision, i am glad others are puzzled by this as well. It just feels inconsistent - I can drag new media from the media bin across any track and drop it, but once its dropped I can't pick it up again!

As to event normalize, it is very useful in certain situations where you are trying to level match a number of events on a track. Sometimes you need to boost the level of just one event - what I do is normalize then pull down the event level to match its neighbors. This is a situation where the visual feedback of the waveform amplitude increasing and descreasing on the display is very useful, a feature which Acid 6 also seems to be lacking (please add this as an option!).

Overall though, I still like it. Just a few more tweaks and it will be the editing nirvana us Vegas audio users have come to appreciate.

Cheers,

Randy

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/4/2006 4:40:01 PM

Christ can we ALL at least agree that the MIDI folk are happy as heck??? Remember that whole can of worms? Wow out of one dilema and into another. ;)

Ed.

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/4/2006 4:41:25 PM

The lack of event grouping and drag/drop is pretty much a deal breaker for me. I do a lot of tribal-ambient, extended tracks, and the free form, experimental posibilities that these 2 features give me has simply become mandatory in my work flow. Obviously some of you don't mind cutting and pasting. I personally think its 2 steps too many for the same objective and don't wish to go backwards in this regard. If I liked to cut and paste, I'd moved to ProTools a long time ago. That being said, I'm glad to see that Acid has made this leap forward, even if its something I probably won't find all that useful in my work. Like the other Sony apps, I'll most likely buy it, wait till version 6.c to install and check it out. I've bought every version of Vegas, SF, and Acid (except 4) since the beginning and I feel like I've only been ripped 3 times – Vegas 4 (always sluggish on my system) & 5 (had to purchase Vegas 6 to get a working metronome) and Sound Forge 8 (still has a bug that makes it unusable for me - they say their working on it). I've wasted $130 on a lousy meal for two more than once so its not that big of a deal if Acid 6 works for me or not. . . I was just hoping for something that might fit so I could stop looking elsewhere.

drbam

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: Spheris

Date:4/4/2006 5:05:43 PM

My apologies Bam, I misunderstood your question. As an assembly platform - vegas does still retain that edge. I'm sorry but the question was misread.

Subject:RE: Editing in Acid 6 – Vegas standards?

Reply by: nutrapuppy

Date:4/4/2006 5:28:15 PM

Just want to chime in and agree with the appreciation for Vegas' editing. I still use version 3 because I rarely need to record more than a stereo pair these days, but Vegas is a real pleasure every time I boot it up. Beautiful program.

That Acid is even approaching Vegas in the Multitrack DAW dept. is pretty exciting.
Patience during this transition from loop machine to DAW is obviously hard to come by, but should prove worthwhile.

That said, I found Acid 5 to be a disappointingly crippled piece of software and have yet to install Acid 6. I remain cautiously optimistic, mostly because I rely on ACID for something like 99% of my work these days.

Keep the reviews coming...