Subject:Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Posted by: Djipy

Date:3/5/2006 1:14:24 AM

For now, I'm using Acid Pro 4.0.
I have tested the demo version of Acid Pro 5.0 and I've noticed that version 5.0 supports multiple outputs for VSTi.
However, is it possible to bypass that feature, in order to have 1 channel only per VSTi, just like in Acid pro 4.0 ?

The problem is : the soundfont player Sfz+ has 8 stereo channels, no way to choose the number of channels, and I only need 1...

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/5/2006 6:26:37 AM

There is no way to do this in ACID Pro 5. ACID expects the VSTi to allow you to control this and most well designed VSTi’s do give you this feature (e.g., Native Instruments Kontakt allows you to control how many outputs it exposes) This is how VSTi’s are supposed to work. It is unfortunate that Sfz+ is not written to conform to the VSTi spec in this way. You might want to complain to the Sfz+ folks about this and request it as a feature.

Perhaps ACID Pro 6 will have a way to control this??? (I would wait to upgrade to ACID 6 anyway)

~jr

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: Djipy

Date:3/6/2006 2:32:25 AM

What about the upcoming Acid Pro 6.0 and the multiple VSTi channels ?
Will it be possible to set a maximum number of channels in the options, so the extra channels are not shown and ignored for all VSTi's or for each one ?

Can someone from the Sony Team or a beta tester answer this question ?

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/6/2006 4:56:20 AM

> Can someone from the Sony Team or a beta tester answer this question ?

No, because anybody who knows is bound by a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to not say anything that isn’t already public. Since the ACID Pro 6 brochure doesn’t mention this, you will have to wait until it is released to find out.

~jr

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: Djipy

Date:3/6/2006 5:39:25 AM

Yes, I know there is a NDA : testers are not allowed to bootleg the beta version, that's obvious.
However, I don't see any good reason why technical features must be kept confidential : it could be a good teaser for people who are longing for the product and plan to buy it, maybe...
Anyway, let's wait and see.

Because Acid Pro 5.0 supports multiple channels without any option to limit the number of channels used, I consider it to be less practical than 4.0 in my case, as I'm using sfz+ only.
Each instance of sfz+ creates 9 outputs (8 channels + 1 effect out).
As Acid 5.0 is limited to 32 channels, there can be 3 instances of sfz+ at maximum. Knowing that one instance can be one instrument (up to 8 variations and articulations, important with acoustic samples), it limits any project to 3 different instruments.
In Acid Pro 4.0, it's possible to create up to 32 sfz+, thus 32 instruments, each with a bunch of articulations.

I'm sure that other VSTi's cause the same drawback.

I hope that Acid Pro 6.0 gives a solution to that problem, otherwise I will have to keep version 4.0.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/7/2006 5:32:28 AM

> However, I don't see any good reason why technical features must be kept confidential : it could be a good teaser for people who are longing for the product and plan to buy it, maybe...

That’s simple. While it gives your customers a good teaser, it also gives your competitors an advantage. I’ve had this happen to me. While we were demoing a beta of the next version of a product last summer, our competitor saw it and implemented some of the new features in his product before our delivery date and then claimed he had those features first! Software is an extremely competitive business and since there are no fabrication and tooling costs, it’s very easy to quickly steal an idea.

I the case of multi-output VSTi’s, perhaps Sony just left it out of the brochure due to lack of space. You could have gone to the demo at NAMM and asked them and they probably would have gladly shown you if such a feature existed. Maybe someone who was at NAMM can comment if they saw this feature.

~jr

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: Djipy

Date:3/10/2006 3:34:36 AM

Answer from rgc:audio, about changing the number of multiple channels in Sfz+ :

It's not possible in sfz+. Most high-end hosts will allow you to select how many outputs you want to use.

-René

I agree with this point of view.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: kbruff

Date:3/10/2006 9:36:21 AM

I am pretty sure that Sony Media is not really watching the competition closely because - they are so far behind on so many DAW technologies that it is pretty silly.

Also most of what users ask for is never implemented. The real competitive advantage comes from seeing how users work and what are the ideas that users dream about.

Foor loop creation FLSTUDIO is still way beyond so many apps, I am only hoping this new release brings me back to ACID even as an arranger or rewire host, etc.

Thanks-
Kevin

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/11/2006 2:28:54 AM

kbruff, what are you doing on this forum if you think Acid is so far behind the competition?

As far as I know, Acid was never intended to be a loop creation tool like FLstudio. You may be right about FL, I don't see any particular need for this kind of tool myself.

"Also most of what users ask for is never implemented. "??? Not my experience. You think users have not been asking for hardware control or multi channel recording, both of which are in Acid 6.0? Check out the older threads where we users posted lists of what we wanted most. I think Acid 6.0 hits pretty well all of the major items.

There is little point in arguing about whether Acid is behind the other DAWs or not. If you think this is the case, head off to the Sonar, Live or Cubase forums. The fact that many of us still use Acid means that it works for us despite any limitations. I use Cubase regularly (and I think it's a good app), but Acid is still the best at what it does.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/11/2006 7:07:30 AM

> Also most of what users ask for is never implemented.

Kevin, You obviously haven’t read the ACID Pro 6.0 brochure. Sony has implemented almost EVERYTHING that users have been asking for. I just built a new workstation and I didn’t even bother to install SONAR on it in anticipation of ACID Pro 6.0.

~jr

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: kbruff

Date:3/13/2006 6:36:25 AM

Yeah I know it is great -- but gee they took a long time to implement some of those great new features which are pretty common place with other programs.

Multi-track / Nesting / VST / Program Changes / Slicing

That stuff has been in other tools for so long now, come on!

I am not leaving this forum, I use ACID everyday -- for things that ACID does pretty well, and then I use other tools for ACID does not seem to do pretty well.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:3/13/2006 1:11:41 PM

kbruff,

In the past I've occasionally felt as gloomy as anyone else but not now. There's no doubt that there was (and still is) some catching up to do but speak to people from Sony and I think you'll come away excited.

I got the impression that (1) things are different and (2) things are happening. I think Sony know what needs to be done and are going for it.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:3/13/2006 1:23:27 PM

JohnnyRoy,

I can't say I altogether share your view of ACID 6 as a SONAR replacement: while it lacks a graphical tempo editor and ignores MIDI file tempo meta events, many people are not going to consider it viable as a sequencer.

Still lots of things to be excited about though!

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: kbruff

Date:3/13/2006 2:51:46 PM

I agree -- enough said

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:3/29/2006 5:03:44 AM

> ACID expects the VSTi to allow you to control this

It shouldn't. According to the specs 'A VST plug-in is taken to be a device with a fixed number of i/o pins. How these are being used depends on the application.'

> This is how VSTi’s are supposed to work

Where does it say this in the specifications? Of course a plug-in may be configured in advance but the number of inputs and outputs is 'fixed at construction time and can't change until the plug-in is destroyed'.

> It is unfortunate that Sfz+ is not written to conform to the VSTi spec in this way

Have you actually read the specs?

You might want to complain to the Sfz+ folks about this

You might not. It's a shame you're traducing sfz+ in this way. In my experience René Ceballos of rgc:audio (and since January 2005 of Cakewalk) seems to be one of the finer craftsmen around.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:3/29/2006 5:21:45 AM

> it also gives your competitors an advantage

You really think knowing about ACID Pro 6's handling of VST instruments might give a competitor some great advantage? In the scheme of things (i.e. the addition of multitrack recording and MIDI sequencing) it's surely rather insignificant.

> You could have gone to the demo at NAMM and asked them and they probably would have gladly shown you if such a feature existed

Which makes it all the more silly that it can't be discussed here.

Subject:RE: Acid 5.0 & 6.0 : multiple channels

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/29/2006 7:09:22 AM

This is not entirely correct. The ideal - if not correct - way - is for the plug-in to dynamically control the number and topology of its inputs and outputs.

The VST spec defines mechanisms to permit the plugin to tell the host that the number of outputs (and inputs) and their toplogy has changed. The problem is that the plug-in vendors rely on the host to control this by hiding and showing a fixed number of outputs, so they don't implement this. (It doesn't help that the Steinberg hosts don't support this aspect of their spec. Go figure.)

There are many VSTis that permit you to change the number and topology of their ports, but then force you to remove any active instance in order for the changes to be "picked up". How is this a good work flow?

Don't misconstrue this. This specific aspect and limitation of VST Instruments has been addressed in ACID 6.

Peter