Subject:Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Posted by: luces1

Date:3/5/2006 10:55:14 AM

Hey everybody. Every month for a few months now the Get Media content has included files from the "Drums from a Big Room" library and it got me to thinking about some stuff and I thought it might be fun to dialog about it. So...here goes....

I personally don't use drum loops anymore, I prefer using drum synths (Battery,BFD,etc) and the reason is that with ANY loop (drums or others) you get what you get and you run the risk of having exactly the same loops as 1,000's of other people. Also, with any instrument loop,it is difficult to really create many variations...e.g. "I like that fill but the toms cutoff unnaturally when stretched to it's full length" or "I like that kick snare groove but I wish it had a 32nd note hi hat" etc.

You catch my drift. So I know a few other loop users (Acid,Cakewalk,etc) who feel the same way. So I got to thinking that since Sony released something as ambitious as Drums from a Big Room, that maybe I am in a small % of people who don't care for drum loops b/c THAT is a massive library and expensive too! I figure Sony has much better marketing analysis than I do, so maybe THERE is a market for such a library. I mean if you decided to utilise this multi track concept in ACID you would use HUGE amounts of tracks even if you only picked a couple of different vrs patterns and a couple of different chrs patterns. Although AP5 has folder tracks and AP6 will have all the new kick ass features...who would really want to go through all that hassle for drum tracks? Not only that, but like I said you get what you get and that's it. You see, I do small production work for local songwriters that want their songs to sound "complete" and organic and with ALL the posibilities (rhythmically/melodically) any loop is gonna be limited.

Now with that said, somtimes I will refer to loops for some inspiration and then elaborate from that premise. Is THIS something other users are doing?

I guess I am curious has to WHY Sony would create such an ambitious library and also it seems that there are TONS of commercial loop providers all over the internet and are people still really using that many loops? I mean (it's only an example) but, Drums from a Big Room sounds AMAZING, which would tell me that a person who is going to buy that IS somone who IS a professional and why would any professional settle for something with limitations.

Well, with all that off of my chest, I wonder what future trends might be and this is where I hope you guys will chime in.

I wonder if maybe (dare I say) midi might come back around as the prefered method of song creation. I am a dinosaur and I go back to the beginning of midi and with great sounding softsynths maybe the new future of "looping" is in midi loops, or perhaps some other technology. In the music business,it is said that everything cycles around and I wonder if this might be the case for digital audio technology.

So I guess I am wondering if loop technology is now for hobbyists or for serious professionals (of which I am NOT a serious prfessional, I am semi pro). I guess I was just thinking of how ironic it might be if the once cutting edge technology used as an industry standard might become something that mainly beginner/hobbyists use.

Well that's my rant and I hope that I did not ofend anyone. The whole purpose of this thread is to create dialog AND to distract myself from CONSTANTLY thinking about the AP6 release. So, I hope you all chime in,'cause it's just for fun. Thanks,luces.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/5/2006 1:58:54 PM

One of the major reasons why people use loops rather than MIDI is that it is extremely hard to get the nuances of real playing in a MIDI file. You can buy MIDI files recorded from the playing of real drummers, and use those with sampled drums, but it still doesn't quite get the feel.

On the other hand, if you are making electronica, you may want the mechanical feel of 100% quantised MIDI drums.

I do a lot of ethnic based ("world") music. For this stuff, you either learn to play the original instruments or use loops. The sounds are pretty hard to realistically recreate with MIDI. I use a combination of loops, sampled phrases, MIDI and my own playing of real instruments.

One of the good things about using sample libraries is that it helps move you into the "production" phase more quickly. Instead of kidding yourself that you are making progress faffing about recording more and more tracks, a good sample library challenges you to go ahead and make an arrangement NOW instead of next week.

It doesn't worry me too much if others are using the same samples. The average listener is not going to recognise them - it is only people like you and me that will notice. And if they do, so what? If they like what I have done, then they will buy the music (I hope!).

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/5/2006 3:37:28 PM

I agree somewhat with jumbuk. There are limitations with loops AND there are also limitations with MIDI programming (some subtleties of a great player are difficult if not impossible to program). I use a combination. I use loops (which I may chop to change kick pattern or whatever), then I chop out the sounds and program the fills/transitions and sometimes may program a pre-chorus or bridge.

Also, I'm not too concerned about others having the same beat. I can take the same loop and use it in two different contexts where you wouldn't even stop to think it's the same loop, let alone another person doing something completely different with it. I would say that if I was doing hip-hop I would be concerned about it because the beat is more of a defining trait of a hip-hop producer.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/6/2006 4:46:14 AM

I think a lot of it depends on what style of music you play. I have always been a hard rock musician and for me, drum machines wreak of electronic hip-hop music (no disrespect to anyone but the last thing I want in my music is a steady repetitive beat) save Phil Collins first LP which was an incredible use of drum machines. But hey, Phil’s a drummer, he know what he’s doing!

So, I want my drums to have a live feel and I’m not a drummer. I’m a keyboard player. I’ll spend all day looking for the right keyboard sound but I don’t want to spend any time programming a drum machine with tons of beats. I’m not a drummer and I have no business doing that.

I would have to say that my primary reason for purchasing ACID was to NOT use a drum machine. I hated all my songs that use drum machines before ACID. In fact, I would play MIDI drums live from my keyboard and they sounded like... well... like someone trying to play drums on a keyboard! :( Only a real drummer can give you the nuance of using sticks and that holds true for drum machines as well. I don’t like ‘em and would never use ‘em again.

I think you need to get a well organized drum library!

My primary drum library now is Smart Loops Pro Drum Works Volume 1. It is laid out in such a way, that each drum pattern is assigned a unique number. The patterns are placed in folders like 8ths, 16ths, Floor, Open, Ride, etc. If you find that pattern 27 in the 8ths folder is exactly what you want but you wish the drummer was playing 16th note hi-hat, just go get pattern 27 in the 16ths folder. If you want the same pattern but with the ride cymbal for the last 4 bests of the measure, pull pattern 27 out of the Ride folder. Then there are variations on the patterns in a new set of folders. So pattern 27 in folder Basic B is a variation on pattern 27 in Basic A. It’s a brilliant design!

Smart Loops addresses your exact problem of liking a beat but wishing it as a little different and this is what sold me on it. There is no need to waste time searching endlessly for the right loops. You just follow the number and folder system and build your song quickly and easily. I have no affiliation with them. I’m just a happy customer. IMHO, this is the way all loop libraries should be organized.

Bottom line: if it weren’t for live drum loops, I wouldn't be using ACID. It’s what first attracted me to it, and I’m glad Sony is continuing to release drum libraries for people like me who just need to lay a beat behind our own instrument. ;-)

~jr

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/6/2006 6:33:29 AM

I'm primarily an electronic music producer, so drums are an essential part of my end product. I don't know of a single other electronic music producer that I'm acquainted with that doesn't use some form of drum loops in their work.

However, in my case, the drum loops are never used as the primary source of drums. There are always drums that I programmed myself that serve as the beat foundation of my product. At the very least, the kick, snare, and hi hats (and mostly likely some more) are always programmed by me. Then, once I have a foundation I'm happy with, I go back and add a loop or two to "thicken" up the beat, depending on what I feel the beat may need (some percussion, textrue, etc.)

Also, I hardly ever use a loop "as is". Editing the loop not only makes the loop sound original, but it may be necessary to make it "sit" properly with the drums I programmed since the timing may be different. I may cut the kick and snare out of the loop and place them in time on top of mine. I may also just cut the kick and snare out of the loop entirely and just let my kick and snare play with the remainder of the loop. Sometimes, I'm simply after the ambient noise in the loop and I'll cut out a piece between the kick and the snare and use that as a loop behind my own drums.

The key for me is to always program a set of drums myself (even if the kick and snare that I'm using to program with are out of the same loop that I'm using for backing). That way, whatever loop editing I do that may not sound "natural" is covered up by my drum programming or vice versa.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/6/2006 3:46:31 PM

Right on! This is cool! A real community forum with users just shootin' the bull!

I gotta agree with you jumbuk that the ethnic stuff is tricky,but you say that you play some drums yourself. Is that your primary instrument? If not what is? For that matter,what do most of us play?
Me first....gtr fisrt instrument drums second. Although I am really avg on both. Who's next?....

So I guess redundancy and "sameness" is not a concern for most.

So what about mixing? With most non-drum loops this is less of an issue, but with stereo drum loops this is sometimes a bummer (for me anyhow) when I can't seem to get the snare in the pocket w/o completely wrecking the kick or hats. I suppose most well produced loops take this into acount,but sometimes it is cool to have that '80's verb ringing like crazy and ONLY on the snare! I guess that's why multi track libraries exist,but like I said before,what a daunting concept(all those tracks)!

Thanks for the tip JohnnyRoy. Your right,that design does sound very logical. I am with you, I wonder why more libraries don't use that naming method. Perhaps it is some type of legal issue...copyright or patent.

As for other instrument loops (primarily piano and organ) it seems like what you get is mainly a persons style and less of a general style. even most guitar libraries seem this way. I have a percussionist buddy who is trying to find a generic acoustic guitar libary (standard strums, arpeggios, both pick and finger) and the problem he has is that the sometimes when the loops are pitch shifted,they start to sound artificial. So,he wishes that there were more patterns in more keys. I'll throw some stuff down for him occassionally,but he travels a lot and likes to work on the road.

I suppose any library with that many alternatives would be HUGE (ala D. Trump), but with the release of Drums from a Big Room and how ambitious it is, maybe libraries for keys and guitars should be THAT ambitious. Especialy keys(for me)! I SUCK royally at keys. I got a ton of soft synths,but my playing/prgramming SUCKS. So this is kind of along the lines of those (mostly) non drummers using drum loops. I mean I can sorta play drums and program alright,but not keys!

IMO it seems easier to "disguise" drums than melodic instruments (no offense to drummers). As long as a groove-----"grooves" people are more forgiving,but having the same kybd or gtr riff seems much more apparent. Now I know I'm gonna take a punch on this ,but....electronica seems to have a huge selection of loop libraries and it seems to be the most predictable music out there. Now with that said, I am not an avid listener nor do I really care for electronica(monotony), BUT I have spent 1,000's of hours in dance clubs and I gotta say as long as you got four on the floor (kicks) every keyboard flourish sounds the same. But,that's just me. Also,like jumbuk stated, most dance/electronica lends itself to midi and quantising so why are there so many loop libraries?

Now with that said, there have been MANY times when a client wanted something electronica and ACID RULES for this!!! I mean, I never "created" a part. I just used my Euror Techno library and I was DONE. But, that's my point, I used this ONE library for EVERY electronica request and the client was happy. I could NEVER use the Mick Fleetwod library for every drum session. Although I like his library.

Well that's it for now. Thanks for participating in this dialog and I hope we keep it going for a bit b/c I am REALLY running out of distarctions from the AP6 release!

Thanks again JohnnyRoy for the tip. I'll have a look and maybe we should figure out why other libraries don't use that naming method.

Out for now,luces.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/6/2006 6:31:11 PM

Luces,

Since you asked ... I was primarily a guitarist (mainly acoustic) for around 15 years, with the occasional bass. I now work mainly on flutes (Irish, Shakuhachi, Native American and odd bits of bamboo). I have a set of bongos and a Roland HPD15 MIDI hand drum pad, but I mainly use prerecorded loops. I use a lot of sample libraries for vocal and instrument phrases (sitar, koto etc etc).

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/6/2006 9:54:53 PM

As far as mixing with stereo drum loops. You really have to be a bit more creative and thoughtful. Take the loop on one track, then make another track with just the snare chopped out and assign it to your reverb. Then you have reverb on just the snare. You can use similar techniques to change volume of just the kick or snare. There is alot you can do, you just have to be more creative about it.:-)

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/7/2006 6:56:26 AM

Hey H2000,that is a great idea about mixing ! I will experiment today !

Hey jumbuk,if you don't mind me asking,what are some of the ethnic libraries you prefer (sitar,koto ,etc.)?

Also,would somebody chime in about a good piano and a good organ library. As for the style,Iwould like some good ballad stuff,pop-rock,and maybe some blues.

Thanks again to everyone participating in this thread. luces.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/7/2006 7:42:12 PM

"Hey jumbuk,if you don't mind me asking,what are some of the ethnic libraries you prefer (sitar,koto ,etc.)?"

I have just about every ethnic library ever made :)

The ethnoworld series (especially volume2) is great for playable instruments as well as phrases.

Discovery's Japan CD is audio only and fairly small in content, but has authentic sounding Japanese instruments. Discovery also have a few other odd productions that are worth listening to.

The original Spectrasonics releases Heart of Africa and Heart of Asia are packed with useful stuff of all kinds. Also Deepest India, but not so well documented.

If you want just loops, the Spectrasonics Supreme Beats series will take some beating (pun intended).


For vocals, Vocal Planet is a massive source.

Many of the Soundscan series are useful and very cheap.

Sony's own World Pop is quite useful, despite the misleading title. I also like all of the Laswell CDs in the Sony series. They are not 100% ethnic (probably only about 25%) but it's all good stuff.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/8/2006 6:16:26 AM

Thanks for the tip. Who is Discovery? I have never heard of them. Anyhow I will follow up on your tips. Thanks,luces

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:3/8/2006 7:42:22 AM

luces1,

Great thread. I was feeling the same way as you - using loops etc that everyone else had access to and certainly running the risk of sounding the same - until I got hold of Stylus RMX and Recycle.

With these two tools - I have pretty much an unlimited and infinite soundscape. I own a number of Sony loop libraries but whenever I need variation (and inspiration)....I just open a standard loop from a library in Recycle...quickly convert to a REX file and then get it into RMX. From there - well....it's just a matter of imagination and time spent. One single loop can be twisted in so many ways that I could literally create a whole new library out of it.

I say...keep the libraries and the Get Media content coming.....there is lots of mangling to do. And I can pretty much guarantee my stuff will not sound like anyone elses....

Cheers!

VP

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/8/2006 8:44:22 AM

loop libraries... hmmm. if you "create" a piece of work using loops, can you really call it yours?

i understand that the loops from sony are royalty free and they definately speed up the music "production" process. but in escence, aren't you just mixing someone else's work?

hypothetically speaking, someone on this forum writes, records and edits a song. they claim that they are offering up for ppl to use for whatever they want. i take those tracks, chop them up into loops and mix them to my liking. can i really claim it as mine?

i used to use loops in the very begining, but then i started to think that it really isn't my work, just me mixing someone else's work, since then i've done all my own loops with all sounds that i've recorded.

i guess it bugs me knowing that there are ppl out there who will use loops and claim the piece as there own instead of saying "i used blah blah loop from blah blah in this way".

maybe it's just me who feels this way. i'm not taking away from ppl who use loops ability to arrange samples and mix them together, just don't claim the song as "your work".

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Pindal

Date:3/8/2006 9:07:18 AM

I was missing this kind of threads in this forum. Here we speak scarcely about music, what we are doing, tips and so on. And music is the most important isn´t? It´s o.k. to speak about installation problems and the same but this is better. We should try to do something like the Digidesign Forums to learn from each other.
I think Acid is a great help to compose and to polish your music if you are alone. It can help you to invent a song and to bring a song to live and that is the most important. Once you compose the song it could be played by Acid or by the Berlin Filarmonic orchestra: you have a song that previously wasn´t there.
Keep this kind of discussion going. Thank you

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/8/2006 9:31:14 AM

> loop libraries... hmmm. if you "create" a piece of work using loops, can you really call it yours? …i guess it bugs me knowing that there are ppl out there who will use loops and claim the piece as there own instead of saying "i used blah blah loop from blah blah in this way".

Have you ever played in a band with other musicians? When you write a new song and present it to your band, you normally don’t tell the bass player each note to play. You give him the chord changes and he makes up his/her own lines. Is it still your song? You don’t tell the drummer every drum to hit. You give him the tempo and an idea of the beat and you let him weave his magic. Is it still your song? You don’t tell the guitar or keyboard player every grace note to play. You give him/her a chord chart and let them improvise their parts. Is it still your song?

You bet your sweet a** it’s still your song!

When I write with ACID, I lay down drum loops that I like. What’s the difference if I tell a real drummer I want the snare on the 2 and the 4 with 8th note hi-hats or I find a loop with the snare on the 2 and the 4 with 8th note hi-hats? It’s still my choice. My song.

Every song that has ever been written and performed, (with the exception of people like Paul McCartney who have made albums where they played every instrument) ALL of these songs are credited to the song writers but have been composed of lics, comps, and chops of the musicians who have performed them.

No one told Billy Preston what to play on the Beatle’s Get Back. He got no writers credits. Yet that song would not be the same without his Wurlitzer chords and unmistakable solo.

Music is melting pot of ideas. It always has been. It doesn’t matter who played the loops. It was you that selected 8 or 9 loops out of 1000’s to make that song. It is YOUR song!

~jr

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: billybk

Date:3/8/2006 9:48:22 AM

Very well said JR. I could not agree with you more. When composing, my loop libraries are my backing band. Sorta like my Paul, George & Ringo when I need them as I play the role of John in creating my masterpiece. :-)

Cheers,

Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/8/2006 10:05:54 AM

I don't think it is as easy to define as you make it out to be. Some people just start thowing loops up and mixing them up and arrange them with no preconceived ideas. Others may have a song written already in thier head, on a guitar or piano, or just sung - and then they use loops to arrange the song that they wrote just as they would use studio musicians.

I play bass, guitar, piano, trumpet and I program drums. And I still use drum and percussion loops when I can't get the programmed sound "live" enough. No different than when I have a live drummer replace my programming (except the live drummer is usually better and easier).

So there really are too many situations to define who creates something simply by asking if they use loops or not.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/8/2006 10:20:25 AM

if i gave the bass player the chord changes and he came up with the bass line and i gave the drummer the tempo and an idea of the beat and let him weave his magic, it's no longer just my song, it then becomes "our" song and the musicians who wrote their own parts should be credited with that work. Just because the Beetles didn't give Billy Preston song wirters credits doesn't make it right. If Billy Preston wrote his part then he should be given credit.

what i'm saying is if you are using loops that someone else composed, and you had no part in writing, then you should give credit where credit is due. using loops that someone else composed/recorded is the same as snagging a sample from a previously written song. for instance vanilla ice and the bass line from the song "pressure". it's a loop in vanilla's song, but he didn't write it. he also tried to claim it as his own and ended up looking like a fool.
the only difference between using a sample from a well known song and a loop from a sample library that someone else made is how recognizable it is. people are more likely to say, "hey isn't that the bass line from "Pressure" than "hey isn't that the bass line from SONY's loops library".

yes i've worked with other musicians and song writers and i've always given credit where credit is due. even if the initial concept of the song was mine. so i just feel that ppl who use loops should just be aware of how they word it. if someone tells me they wrote a song, i assume they wrote the whole song. if some wrote a song and used some loops / samples i would hope that they would atleast mention it. "yeah i wrote the song, but that bass line and drums are from the loops library".

i'm really not trying to create enemies, just sharing one of many opinions that i know are out there.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/8/2006 11:35:20 AM

I don't think your making any enemies here. Your just stating a very interesting opinion, which is part of what forums are about. However, I disagree with your opinion. What exactly makes something "yours"? Here's a scenario:

You jamming out on your bass playing the bassline from "Pressure" (because lets face it...it's a great bassline) and your band mates come in and start playing brand new original pieces around it (brand new drums, guitar chords, vocals, etc). Now the song sounds great except the bassline isn't yours, so you drop it an octave and change the beginning and end note by a whole step (for arguements sake, lets say it everything still stays in key).

Is the bassline yours or do you say "we wrote this except for the bassline from Pressure that I altered by dropping it an octave and changing the beginning and end notes"? I say it's yours and I look at loops the exact same way. The end result is the composition (in my opinion) and don't believe it takes away from the originality of the composition because the end result may contain elements or may have been inspired by other pieces of music (be it drums, melody, etc.)

Now....HOW original a piece of music is.... that's certainly something that I see as debatable. Hip Hop is a very fertile ground for that arguement. Today, the majority of samples of compositions used in Hip Hop tracks are credited. The exception are those that can't be recognized as pieces of other compositions. Personally, I would argue that those that can't be recognized are "original" compostions since a completely new and unrecognizable twist has made whatever sample was used, something new when placed side by side with the source of the sample.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/8/2006 11:58:29 AM

point taken. what about this scenario.

some guy who knows didly squat about music. grabs a loop cd. throws some loops together. by chance, it sounds pretty good. burns a cd, brings it to a party. plays it. people love it. he then takes credit for it, thus leading people to believe he played the instruments, wrote the music and recorded it at his place by not mentioning that he used nothing but loops from other peoples work. when in fact all he did was drag and drop.

is this morally right to do?

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/8/2006 2:54:44 PM

Likewise, your point is taken...and well taken at that. I actually came across a scenario like that once. I was playing (djing) at a show one night and a guy came up to me and told me that he loved my records, handed me a CD with his e-mail address on it, and asked me to e-mail him with my thoughts on "his" new track. I popped it in my deck on the way home and, to my surprise (I usually get utter garbage when people hand me something), it was pretty darn good in my opinion.

That was until I got a certain synth that I'd ordered in the mail the next day. As I scrolled through the presets on the synth, I realized that the entire song (and I mean ENTIRE....from drums to bassline to arpeggios) that this guy had given me was pre-programmed preset on top of pre-programmed preset. I mean, if he used three different keys on this synth (and I'm talking three different keys for EVERTHING), he used alot!! These presets were that good.

Now....if I wouldn't have come across those presets in the synth, I would have gone on thinking this guy was synthesis monster. Personally, do I think what he did was morally right? For me, the answer is no, but different people have a different set of morals. Did he really steal anything? No. To the best of my knowledge, presets are royalty free, so who did he really hurt?

In my view, the only thing he hurt was his reputation with me (for whatever that's worth). If he can sleep with himself knowing that I (and whoever else knows how he came up with his track), then it's obvious that his moral values are different to mine.

In conclusion, I understand exactly what your saying, but nothing in this world is black or white in my opinion.....just different shades of grey. I think the same can be said about how original a certain piece of music is (whether it uses loops or not).

P.S. Great topic for a thread!!!

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/8/2006 3:10:16 PM

Playing an instrument on a song does not make you a songwriter. Unless the performer makes an identifiable destinct contribution to the song which alters the song, then they are not writing the song. Should they get credit for playing on the recording? F*ck yes. But that doesn't make it their song. Hire another player to come in and play on it. His part is slightly different than the first guy's part - it's still the same song though.

There are a million variables when dealing with songwriting credits and it is up to the songwriter(s) to hash it out.

You seem to confuse songwriting and arranging. Do I think arranging should be considered as great a contribution as songwriting? In some cases, yes. But it really is on a case by case basis, and it is still never the same thing as songwriting.

The difference between sampling from someone elses recording and using a sample CD is that you pay for the license to use a sample CD. Just as you would pay a studio musician.

As far as credit goes. Look, if someone wants to lie about credits and take credit for something they didn't do, it's called lying and it's always morally wrong in my book. Am I concerned that some guy with no knowledge or experience is going to come along and look like a lifetime pro when I have spent years learning to play several instruments, write and arrange songs, and record?

Well, people are going to do what they are going to do. They will have to deal with the universal laws themselves - just as we all do.:-)

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/8/2006 4:22:51 PM

well i'm glad that nobody here at this forum decided to rip my head off for my opinion. i knew going into this topic that it was very touchy.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/8/2006 5:55:45 PM

Right on users! This is great banter! I will jump in here since I started this thing. In my humble opinion I think a song is basically a chord progression and, most importantly, an ORIGINAL melody. I have a friend who is a pretty successful songwriter in the latin market, and as a result he has had the opportunity to be around some HEAVY WEIGHTS, and early on he was lacking some confidence because he was using loops and so forth and a producer he worked with told him that having an ORIGINAL melody is just about everything and to not be so concerned about the tools used to create the demo.

So in my opinion I think that if YOU created the melody AND it IS original...it's your song. I have been in bands for 30 yrs and I realize that unless I wrote the chord progression or melody I was just helping to create a vibe and THAT is what I use loops for and therefore if a musician creates a loop library then they need to negotiate with the distributer that they want credit and to have their name on the library. But, I also believe that if a musician creates a loop library, how can they really expect everybody who uses that library to give them credit for playing on a project ? I mean sometimes your project is a local jingle and who cares?

On the other hand, I do agree that ANYBODY who "lifts" a factory demo and passes it off as theirs is low!

So that's my rant and I'm sticking to it. luces

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/8/2006 8:55:36 PM

"what about this scenario.

some guy who knows didly squat about music. grabs a loop cd. throws some loops together. by chance, it sounds pretty good. burns a cd, brings it to a party. plays it. ..."

I have done a fair bit of thinking about this topic, because I have produced a commercial CD that was almost entirely sample based. Ok, I credited the sample libraries, so it was open and honest. Here's my take on the whole "is it mine?" question:

- Your scenario is unlikely. In 99% of cases, the guy with no talent will not produce anything that sounds like real music, unless he lifts a whole track. I see this all the time with Acid. Anyone can get a great groove going, but non-musicians generally find it hard to turn a groove into a whole song.

- The other 1% who CAN produce music without any previous knowledge are genuine musicians IMO. I don't care if I can run rings around them on guitar, if they can produce something that I like just by feel, then they are entitled to my respect.

- I can play several instruments (some just Ok). If I choose to use some loops to help me focus on the composition process instead of the nitty gritty, it doesn't destroy my integrity.

- In the end, am I different to the recording producer for U2 or the Beatles or anyone else that calls up a session player for a sax solo on the new hit record? Either way, I am using someone else's chops and crediting them for it, but I am still entitled to call it MY production.

Perhaps we can avoid this whole dilemma by renaming ourselves as "producers"?

Luces, I think your definition of "song" is too narrow. What about electro, or some varieties of ambient, or some modern "classical" styles? Much modern music is approached more along the lines of "sound sculpture". Or what about Japanese Honkyoku (Zen music for Shakuhachi) - no melody, no rhythm. Also, the concept of a "chord progression" is really only relevant in western music, where the concept of harmony has been developed. Most ethnic folk music is essentially modal, with little if any harmony beyond a drone. I do agree with you though, the originator of a melody and chord progression is entitled to think of it as "his" or "her" song.

What this all boils down to is that much music is a result of collaboration among several people. If you claim the work of others as your own, you are rightly regarded as dishonest and a thief. If you present it as your own work produced with the help of other people who are properly credited, the listener can make their own judgements, and they will weigh up the relative value of each component by what they hear.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/9/2006 5:21:18 AM

"What this all boils down to is that much music is a result of collaboration among several people. If you claim the work of others as your own, you are rightly regarded as dishonest and a thief. If you present it as your own work produced with the help of other people who are properly credited, the listener can make their own judgements, and they will weigh up the relative value of each component by what they hear."

i couldn't have said it better. of course i threw in a bit of my own opinion. but jumbuk said what i was trying to rather simply.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/9/2006 5:38:29 AM

> except the live drummer is usually better and easier

Yea, but loops don’t bang on drums while you’re talking to them or show up late to rehearsal. ;-)

> some guy who knows didly squat about music. grabs a loop cd. throws some loops together. by chance, it sounds pretty good. ...when in fact all he did was drag and drop

That’s a pretty BIG “by chance”. Dragging and dropping still requires selecting compatible loops. We tell videographers on the Vegas forum to use ACID to create royalty free music for their video productions all the time and they always come back to us and say, “I tried that, it’s too hard. I don’t know what I’m doing”. So it’s not as easy as you make it sound. I think you are forgetting that you have musical talent and what seems simple for you is impossible for others to accomplish. Maybe the guy to “knows didly squat” really has an innate talent that is under developed but there none the less.

> well i'm glad that nobody here at this forum decided to rip my head off for my opinion

Rip your head off? Are you kidding? I LOVE this thread! We need MORE of these threads. This forum has been dead because no one has any questions about ACID but we forget that we are all musicians / composers / arrangers, and have lots of different insights and angles to share about making music.

And speaking of composers and arrangers, that’s what I consider people who just drop loops onto tracks without any talent for playing an instrument. They are still composing. They still dropped the loops and said, that works, or that doesn’t work. They still made the decision of what loops to use. Are some of them simply stealing? Yes that does happen in the case of someone just playing preset sequences from a synth or taking in 8pack and rearranging it. Then it’s more of a remix than an original song. So there are exceptions (and bad songs).

> Just because the Beetles didn't give Billy Preston song wirters credits doesn't make it right.

I really respect you wanting to credit everyone involved in the creative process. It just has never happened that way. I think your way is better but I have never been given a part to play. Studio musicians always make up their own parts and never get writer’s credit. That’s just how the business is. You get credit for playing on the song but not for writing it. Like I said, if I tell the drummer, “give me some jungle-like floor tom beat”, or I drop a Fleetwood Mac beat on my song, what’s the difference? I was the one who knew that the song needed a jungle-beat.

> what i'm saying is if you are using loops that someone else composed, and you had no part in writing, then you should give credit where credit is due.

This is not unique to loops. There are tons of songs that borrow licks and riffs from Motown and other songs and there is no credit given. It’s called “influence”. We are all influenced by the music that came before us and we “emulate” the artists that we admire. In the studio, I’ve been asked to play a piano part like Danny Federici because they wanted the song to have a Brice Springsteen “Born to Run” feel. You know I had to put some licks in there that danced around Danny’s playing. When you hear the song, you say, “that has kind of a Springsteen feel” and that’s exactly what the song writer wanted. Springsteen and Federici got not credit in writing the song. ;-)

> but nothing in this world is black or white in my opinion.....just different shades of grey.

Or a whiter shade of pale. :-D (sorry, need more coffee)

So there are original ideas, influenced ideas, and stealing. I think most songs fall into the heavily influenced category (read: grey). How many times do you hear a song on the radio and think it’s a different song because they start in a similar way? No loops involved; just lots of influence.

All music is influenced. One could almost say that there are no new musical ideas. All the chord progressions have been played. There are only variations on a theme. (now I’m way out on a limb but you get the idea) ;-)

Anyone who has dropped a bunch of loops on the timeline and gotten crap knows that the loop that you pick DOES make a difference. My feeling is that influence is unavoidable, but you should add something of yourself to the music to make it your own. Then you can truly call it yours. That’s what all the music around the loops do... make it your own.

~jr

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/9/2006 8:32:19 AM

well said, JR...good read here.


A piano is just 88 one-shots, innit?

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Spectralis

Date:3/9/2006 11:10:57 AM

If you listen to Bassment Jaxx and other musicians that work with loops then it is clear that they have taken the use of loops to another level. Gone are the days, especially in dance music, where a musician can get away with a simple loop off a sample CD.

Nowdays musicians are creating very complex loops that comprise of traditional drum sounds and many other FX. I think the idea that creating loop based music is a simple process that anyone can achieve good results with is not realistic in this day and age.

Sampling and looping have been an essential part of music for over 50 years. Many renowned musicians have been using loops for decades. Long before the sample CD.

Therefore I don't think looping is the poor mans version of musicianship but an essential component of creativity in modern music. Without wanting to cause offense, I'd even go as far as saying that those who don't use loops have a simplistic approach to music making that does not take full advantage of the music technology we have at our disposal today.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Pindal

Date:3/9/2006 1:32:30 PM

I am with Johnnyroy. He´s right. And I would like to mention what is for me the "magic" of Acid and is unique to it in some way: that it can enrich your song. Most of the times I start a song with a rythm and a chord progression from the guitar and after that I go to Acid...and the song changes because I fin a rythm mor inspiring than mine or a bass line with a different feeling, I don´t Know. In some way is what happened to the Rolling Stones with "Sympathy for the devil" and you can see it in the Jean Kuc Goddard film. They started with an idea but after that they put bongos and Keith changed the bass and so on and at the end the song was different.
Acid is just like that, is like a group. And you don´t get that with other programmes. In Cubase, for example you get what you put on it but with Acid you can get more than what you put on it. Is great. I love it.
Cubase is great if you have a band and you want to record it but if you are alone and you need help to compose and to embellish your songs, or to give the whole picture of your song then Acid is great help. With Acid you can see the whole picture.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/9/2006 10:19:11 PM

"Thanks for the tip. Who is Discovery? I have never heard of them. Anyhow I will follow up on your tips. Thanks,luces"

http://www.discoverysound.com/en/

You can buy their products at http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/index.html as well.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/10/2006 3:02:34 PM

Jumbuk, you wrote;
Luces, I think your definition of "song" is too narrow. What about electro, or some varieties of ambient, or some modern "classical" styles? Much modern music is approached more along the lines of "sound sculpture". Or what about Japanese Honkyoku (Zen music for Shakuhachi) - no melody, no rhythm.

Respectfully, I must disagree. ALL music is math...that's right people, we are "creative" mathematicians.Math is precisely how all DAW software works. Tones and such are frequencies,right? So if you are using loops for your ethnic music they(the loops) must contain temporal and/or melodic(chord/note) information. Besides that, how are these ethnic styles retained? Most are passed down from generations and in order to "learn" or retain these "songs" there HAS to exist a fromula,right? Even a succession of notes whether temporal or not...is a melody of sorts. Our "western" ears may not get it,but I bet "eastern" ears do. My point is,there is something that sets apart Honkyoku "song A" from "song B". You might call it something else,but I bet there IS a progession/succession of notes and that is how the student learns this song. Now maybe I am talking outta my ass,b/c I have never properly studied or listened to this music,(only peripherally), but I still bet ya dollars to doughnuts that there IS some type of progression.

Do we remember the movie "Close Encounters...". In that movie,during the the "encounter" you have all these science geeks "communicating" with the aliens, and these geeks are yelling out terms like "quavers" and "semi-quavers" and this is my point about the science of music. Even the Benedictine monks had a "sytem". Granted it may SOUND like a drone,but there is modulation up and/or down(chord progression) and a certain temporal spacing when "performing" these chants.
So, I still say that, creating a melody (any distinctive succession of notes) makes a song yours.

Now,we have all heard people say "your voice is music to my ears". We all know that music (in this case) means a pleasing sound, which of course IS subjective. I have had many a girlfriend whose voice,at first, was pleasing,then became like fingers on a chalk board! And to me this "pleasing" subjectivity is the art form of what we do.

As for the whole ethical looping thing, I disagree that the whole drag and drop method makes you a composer. I mean, aren't loop libraries basically laid out in a "user" friendly fashion. Doesn't this mean that the loops in a certain library all interact with one another in a "musical" fashion.So,essentially a monkey could drag and drop any series of loops (from a contiguous library)on time line and NOW it (the monkey) is a composer. PLEASE! Let's remember,"pleasing" is subjective. So if you don't like what the monkey did,does this only make him a composer who doesn't have any market appeal? Maybe, but I think most (if not all of us) would disagree. So in my opinion if a monkey did do this AND tried to collect royalties, he IS a thief !

As for the issue of giving credit to loop creators, I will harken back to JohnnyRoy's example of Billy Preston. In this case Billy actually contributed to the ebb and flow and the feel of the song. He decide on the right sound and how to appropriately play that patch and embellish according to the song. He (hopefully) approached these songs with sensitive awareness to what the song needs/wants, whether it was wholly his interpretation or influenced by the other Beatles he still ultimately played the finished take. As "producers",if you prefer, WE are the ones deciding on that element NOT the person who created those loops. IMO, using loops,especially drum loops is really no different than using drum machine patterns,except they sound a LOT better. So do we go back and give those midi programmers credit? Nope.

In the final analysis,if you feel inclined to give credit, that's great,but if not, I don't think there is anything to apologize for.
Thanks again,luces.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/10/2006 8:56:05 PM

"As for the whole ethical looping thing, I disagree that the whole drag and drop method makes you a composer. I mean, aren't loop libraries basically laid out in a "user" friendly fashion. Doesn't this mean that the loops in a certain library all interact with one another in a "musical" fashion.So,essentially a monkey could drag and drop any series of loops (from a contiguous library)on time line and NOW it (the monkey) is a composer. PLEASE! Let's remember,"pleasing" is subjective. So if you don't like what the monkey did,does this only make him a composer who doesn't have any market appeal? Maybe, but I think most (if not all of us) would disagree. So in my opinion if a monkey did do this AND tried to collect royalties, he IS a thief !"

Luces, this has been an interesting discussion, and thanks for raising the other point of view. I do have to disagree with what you wrote above. Some loop libraries may work together, but the majority require you to exercise a fair degree of aethetic filtering before you can get anything that doesn't scream "random collection of unrelated stuff".

The concept of "what is pleasing?" requires more than a few forum lines to discuss - and it's a thorny subject. However, I think it is a major fallacy to say that, just because someone somewhere might find a random collection of loops or notes to be "pleasing", therefore I can't say it isn't music. If you can trot out an actual instance (say the tribes of outer uzbekistan) then that is different. Besides, who said music has to be pleasing anyway?

What is music? I can't say because there is no way of saying it. I certainly don't want to go down the path of "melody, harmony and rhythm" that classical theorists use to categorise music. Hell, think about what we call "music" in the western world. We pick a somewhat arbitrary 12 tones from an octave and say that they are the pitches that you must use if you want to be making "music". We then slightly detune these notes so that we can squeeze them into a structure of "keys" that are all equally out of tune, just so we can support the concept of a functional harmony (chords) that have a uniform relationship across all keys. It's an impressive edifice, but somewhat arbitrary. If we happen to pick a subset of these pitches that happen to sound pleasing to our ears, have we done something that entitles us to think that we have made a "song" that is our own intellectual property? Perhaps, but it's just one part of the whole process of making music that includes the performers, the audience (if there is one) and the instrument makers (including software writers).

My background is traditional folk music. Most of the tunes/songs are not owned by anyone. They were probably not written or composed by one person. They have been handed down by ear, and only been written into western notation fairly recently. In many cases, they were originally played without harmony of any kind. If I record my performance of one of these, I will credit "trad" or "anon" on the CD. Am I stealing?

Later edit:

I expressed myself poorly. I think we all agree that using someone else's artistic creation without crediting it to them is reprehensible. We would also agree that presenting someone else's work as ours without significant creative input from ourselves is reprehensible. Where we may disagree is in what constitutes "significant creative input". I would include performers, singers, songwriters, composers and producers as all equally able to make valid contributions to an artistic production. In particular cases, you will be able to say "the singer made this song" or "this is a great song, and it wouldn't matter who sang it, it would still be great" or "this producer did amazing things with the material she had to work with". All equally valid.

As said, this has been an interesting discussion. I don't think there are any clear answers here, and there is plenty of room for friendly disagreement.

In the meantime, go make more music!

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/11/2006 6:47:21 AM

I love this discussion.

> ALL music is math...that's right people, we are "creative" mathematicians.

Actually that’s why computers are able to generate music. If you have ever used SuperJam or Maestro you would be very impressed at how well they compose music. That’s because music is just mathematical formulas and once you program the formula in for a specific music style, the program and generate song after song after song that sounds unique and pleasing to the ear.

> Some loop libraries may work together, but the majority requires you to exercise a fair degree of aesthetic filtering before you can get anything that doesn't scream "random collection of unrelated stuff".

Ditto! It would be great if loop libraries were laid out logically like this but most are not. Most are a jumble of loops and sometimes you are hard pressed to find loops that sound well together.

> So, essentially a monkey could drag and drop any series of loops (from a contiguous library)on time line and NOW it (the monkey) is a composer.

No, My feeling was that if you do run into a library that musically goes together (like an 8-Pack) then I don’t consider that person a composer. They are just an arranger i.e., someone who re-arranges an existing song into a new “arrangement”.

There really is no black and white and it is not unique to music. In my day gig, I participate in open standards. I wrote part of what is now the WS-ResourceProperties (WSRF-RP) specification in OASIS. At the time, the other authors didn’t feel that I wrote enough to be listed as an original author. I designed and wrote an entire section of the spec alone but apparently there was some magical grey line that I didn’t cross. Luckily when it got to OASIS, I got author credit but there will always be some subjective line about how much input is enough to make you a co-creator of something. (BTW, in computer science, ACID stands for Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, and Durability). ;-)

> I think we all agree that using someone else's artistic creation without crediting it to them is reprehensible

I think you hit on the bottom line here. Musicians who create royalty free loop libraries are, in effect, hiring themselves out to be studio musicians in which they will always play this fixed collection of pieces. If you use them, you may or may not have any obligation to credit the original musician depending on the royalty free agreement. (in fact, you CANNOT say that Mic Fleetwood played drums on your song because you used his loops! That is illegal)

So all we are left with is the question of whether random loop based composition is composing. Based on the fact that I have been in several bands where we would just jam and record it and then take some of the good parts of the jam and make a song out of it, I don’t see how jamming with loops is any different than jamming with fellow musicians. For me ACID replaces my band. I jam with loops now. The process is the same as it always was. The stuff you like stays and the stuff you don’t like goes. ;-)

~jr

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/11/2006 8:32:28 AM

"As said, this has been an interesting discussion. I don't think there are any clear answers here, and there is plenty of room for friendly disagreement."

"In the meantime, go make more music!"........


Okay. Thanks again.

luces

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/11/2006 9:39:49 AM

Creation stems from thoughts. Without the preconception, there is no creation. So someone who decides that a random group of loops sounds nice together is not a composer/creator. Someone who has a thought about what they want to compose is.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Cheameup

Date:3/12/2006 6:53:44 PM

This is a topic I've been talking about with a band mate . we have a full live band drums,bass,keys ,guitars ,decks ,vocals and we also do our own side project stuff using acid and live and vst 's .
We have been doing the loop thing for a long time now and we are both a bit jack of it . I have gigged with a loop project. And it just feels empty to me now.
Once you get used to how a live group of musicans feels,and how it feels to be apart of it its like taking a backwards step using loops , especially drums in my opinon . I still use loops in the initial songwritng phase, cuase I'm on my own . But I cant wait to give it to the drummer and see what he adds to it

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/12/2006 8:52:42 PM

"Creation stems from thoughts. Without the preconception, there is no creation. So someone who decides that a random group of loops sounds nice together is not a composer/creator. Someone who has a thought about what they want to compose is."

Not true. How many good song/symphony ideas have come about from doodling around on an instrument? Even the great classical composers didn't always spring into action with a completely finished piece in their head. Part of the ability to compose any art is being able to recognise the potential of the "happy accident'.

Not to mention John Cage and the I Ching or Berg's twelve tone pieces ...

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/13/2006 9:28:52 AM

" Part of the ability to compose any art is being able to recognise the potential of the "happy accident'."

Yes, and thereby the thoughts. There was intention in the first place by them playing, then they liked what they heard and built on it using the ideas in their head.

Do you think that an "accidental" human performance is the same as a randomly chosen loop? I don't think you are giving those composers the credit they deserve. The human mind works on many levels.

I would also go so far to say that if a composer decides he will compose a song entirely of randomly chosen loops, then again it is his intention that makes him a creator because he thought of it first. Otherwise he simply would be called an organizer.

Subject:Anyone using Drums from the Big Room?

Reply by: busterkeaton

Date:3/13/2006 11:22:42 AM

I'm a video guy who only dabbles in Acid. I won a copy of Drums From The Big Room at a Sony event. How are other folks using these loops?

For me, someone with a musical ear, but no training, it seems a little too elemental, there a very few mixed drum grooves. It contains a ton a elements recorded in different rooms, but I think I would need more producing chops to get anything out if it. I am thinking of selling the collection and using that money to upgrade to Acid 6.

Is there some key to uncracking the code?

Subject:RE: Anyone using Drums from the Big Room?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/13/2006 1:30:52 PM

> Otherwise he simply would be called an organizer.

Well... you can ask my wife, I am definitely NOT an organizer. I’ve been called a lot of things in my day but “organized” is not one of them. ;-)

> Is there some key to uncracking the code?

I don’t have Drums From The Big Room but they did have some samples available in the GetMedia last month. I did double take when I heard them as well. Then I realized that there is one mixed loop and then several loops of just one mike on one drum. This allows you to very easily change the mix or just process the snare or cymbals, but if you are not looking for the ultimate in production control, there are tons of variations on the same loop that you will never use.

IMHO, Sony should have made a regular edition and producer edition so that people who just want the full mixes could buy just them and producers who want total control could buy the whole thing. It’s a nice concept but it’s definitely not for everyone.

~jr

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:3/13/2006 2:32:26 PM

"Once you get used to how a live group of musicans feels,and how it feels to be apart of it its like taking a backwards step using loops , especially drums in my opinon . I still use loops in the initial songwritng phase, cuase I'm on my own . But I cant wait to give it to the drummer and see what he adds to it."

Yes, there is definitely something about playing live with other musicians, and playing a "real" instrument that can't be matched.

This thread started off talking about "Drums from the big room", which is essentially a set of loops designed to replace a "real" performance - to match the nuances and subtelities of a real drummer. I have mixed feelings about this kind of library - if you had a good real drummer, you would probably use her in preference to a library. However, many of us don't have access to real musicians, especially when it comes to exotic or unusual instruments. Libraries are great for this.

The other side of the coin is of course that there are whole genres of music created around electronic instruments and samples, which don't depend on playing "real" instruments at all. It's not that the musicians/producers are using loops or machines because they don't have access to "real" musicians, the electronic sounds have become the core of the music itself.

For my own part, I like mixing the emotion and direct control of real instruments (mainly my flutes) with the huge palette of electronic sounds that you can get from sample libraries.

Subject:RE: Anyone using Drums from the Big Room?

Reply by: busterkeaton

Date:3/14/2006 10:33:49 AM

That's enough for me. I'll sell them, and use the money towards my upgrade.

If anybody wants Drums From the Big Room, drop me at email. Click on my username. Post if you want to let me know, you've sent me an email. It's has a cd for Pop, Rock, Jazz, Reggae and R&B drums.

Here's the link to Sony's page on this.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:3/22/2006 4:32:30 AM

Great thread guys! (Sorry, I'm playing catchup here....).

On the subject of credit for songs, I'd be interested in your opinion on my current situation:

A friend of mine has been recording songs at my mini-studio for the last couple of years. He tends to come up on a weekend with a couple of new songs, lay down an acoustic guitar and a lead vocal part. I then spend a week or 2 adding a 'band' around it. Typically I would add bass, acoustic & electric guitars, keyboards, strings, backing vox, etc. Often I'll use drum loops, at least as a temporary measure - a drummer friend pops up evey so often and kindly records 'live' drums either with an acoustic kit or using his electric Yahama kit (a wicked invention!!) based on the rhythms in the drum loops.

Basically the guy who 'wrote' the song comes back 2 weeks later and the song sounds a lot different to how he'd left it!!

We would now like to release a CD, but I'm not sure who to credit for what. What do you reckon? Lyrics by the other guy, arrangement/production by me? He wrote the lead vocal melody - how do I credit this? I've added some quite prominent backing vocals that become pretty central to the sound of the songs (i.e. not block vocals - they are 'hooky' parts in their own right). Do I just treat these as another instrument in the credits? Do I credit the drummer for just playing on the recording or for 'inventing' the drum part?

Also, the guy has sung the lead vocal on some of my own songs - do I credit myself for everything, and just mention that he has sung the lead vocal?

It's all very complicated - I could end up with a massive fold-out CD cover just for the credits.

And we haven't even discussed royalties yet....

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: kbruff

Date:3/22/2006 6:21:04 AM

It is simply the evolution of multimedia

- samples
- synths
- CGI
- Voice simulators / Pitch correction
- Morphing
- Digital imaging

It is just the way we want things to be or else it would not be this way.
I have access to musicians -- but actually I prefer not to work with them because they unlike the computer cant hassle me over minor tid bits, of course not everyone is so annoying, but it happens more often then preferred.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/22/2006 7:01:11 AM

Lostdog: Sounds like you and this guy need to sit down and discuss the crediting together. From what you described, I would credit this way:

Written by: Friend and You (assuming that you wrote all the other parts)

Produced and Arranged by: You (depending on how much of a hand the other guy has in arranging....if he has a hand, but you play the dominant role, it could Produced by: You and Arranged by: You and Him).

Vocals by: Him

Background vocals: By You

Guitar by: You and Him

Bass by: You

Drums by: Drummer Guy

Electronic Programming and Midi Production by: You (that should take care of everything else)

As far as him singing lead on your tracks, yes....if you did everything from scratch and told him exactly what to sing, then you credit yourself for everything and give him a lead vocal credit. However, if he actually had a hand in writting the melody that the vocal uses, then he deserves a writing credit. All JMHO.

Subject:RE: Who still uses loops(drums or others)?

Reply by: Cheameup

Date:3/23/2006 5:13:39 PM

sounds to me like the songs should be credited to both of you . Whats the difference ? I think any input into a song that offers any direction meldoy or rythym wise deserves to be credited . I had a project fall apart with this similiar thing . we recorded an ep and it turned into a shit fight over who deserve's credit for what .
Either it's your project and he's a contributor or its his project and your a producer or you are a paternship . What do you consider it ?

Subject:RE: What is best Sitar Loop collection

Reply by: gigasaurus

Date:1/3/2007 8:38:36 PM

I'm working on a movie soundtrack that is going to require Sitar music. Could someone please recommend which is the best Royalty-Free collection for me to get? Most of the Loop CDs I see are pretty skimpy on Sitar. I'm sort of interested in solo minor droning stuff (like a Clint Eastwood movie) as opposed to disco sitar. I found a neat CD called "Daughters of Arabia" but it had stipulations about theatrical use and said you weren't allowed to add instruments (what's up with that?). Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Subject:RE: What is best Sitar Loop collection

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/4/2007 5:48:09 AM

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