Subject:the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Posted by: juan2004

Date:2/6/2006 9:32:02 AM

Hello!

Sure you are find out about the new release of WabLab and Audution, well if you tried that softwares, you've founded new tools ans new interfaces for more hard works with many edition details.

Well in that case, Wave. and Aud. allows you "see" the sound from many ways and perspectives, Sound Forge allow you too "see" the sound but in few ways ans perspectives.

I use Sound Forge since 4.5 version, but, but, but in the last times I am using WabLab and Auditio.

Comentary>>> unfortunately, Sound Forge is beginning to be placed
at end of editors softwares rank, because, Audition 2 and WabLab 6 came this new year with all !! (like when Sound Forge came in the version 6)

Your viewpoints or comentaries?, please

Cheers..

Juan

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:2/6/2006 10:11:55 AM

Here's my modest take on the editing landscape:

Audition 2.0

Is a complete clunk fest and a total bloated hog now. I could not believe how heavy and tired it felt to use. Uninstalled the tryout after a half hour. I cannot see how anyone can get anything done in that app.

Wavelab V6.0

The new leader for now. No editor out there can touch this new update for speed, and workflow. Just about to order my copy of Wavelab 6.0 and I can hardly wait to get started with it.

Soundforge

Is there any reason to hold out hope for anything here? Anything at all...any glimmer of hope? Any maintenance updates scheduled? Last touch on this app was August of 2005....does anyone even care anymore?

VP

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: juan2004

Date:2/6/2006 7:45:24 PM

Well well..

Audtion 2.0 is designed for work on PCs with more of 1.5 GHz and with more of 1.0 GHz RAM in a PCs with WinXP+SP2

Now, if your PC takes half hour to unistall Audition 2 that could be because you have a windows or desconfigured, corrupt or u have few hardware resources.

Now, about Sound Forge, well... you said the true he he

Why not you try use Samplitude Professional 8 or Sequoia 8 ?? these applications really are a "monsters" of course are very expensive: Sam. Pro. = 1,000 dollars and Seq. = 3,000 dollars.

WabLab, Samplitude and Sequoia are very popular in Europe.

so... take your favorite !!

luck!!

Juan

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:2/7/2006 5:15:51 AM

"Audtion 2.0 is designed for work on PCs with more of 1.5 GHz and with more of 1.0 GHz RAM in a PCs with WinXP+SP2"

Yeah - I got that part...that why I ran it on my Intel 3.2 GHZ with 2GB of RAM.

"Now, if your PC takes half hour to unistall Audition 2 that could be because you have a windows or desconfigured, corrupt or u have few hardware resources."

Can't really see where I said that. My editing workstation works excellent and has no config problems to speak of. I said - I uninstalled it after a half hour due to it's pokey look and feel and general strange workflow.

"Why not you try use Samplitude Professional 8 or Sequoia 8 ?? these applications really are a "monsters" of course are very expensive: Sam. Pro. = 1,000 dollars and Seq. = 3,000 dollars."

That's because I use Nuendo 3.0 for my multitrack work....Samplitude Pro is simply not in the same league as Nuendo 3.x in my opinion.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:2/7/2006 8:35:17 AM

Let's make this conversation more relevant to this forum.

What specific features do you use that makes these applications more attractive or useful than Sound Forge 8.0?

J.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:2/7/2006 11:28:23 AM

J.

Are you talking to me?

Cheers!

VP

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: juan2004

Date:2/7/2006 7:49:46 PM

Or are you talking to me ??

especifications plizz, names plizzz

:)

luck!

Juan

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:2/7/2006 8:01:39 PM

It sounded like a very open question to me. If anyone has comments about what features they need that they're not finding in Sound Forge, i'm sure the SONY development team wants to hear from you. They're not mind readers; if you don't tell them, they won't know.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:2/8/2006 6:28:57 AM

I think juan2004 was referring to Audition 2.0's Spectral Frequency Display, Spectral Pan Display, and Spectral Phase Display - all alternatives to the Waveform Display - and WaveLab's Spectrum Editor ('Wave. and Aud. allows you "see" the sound from many ways and perspectives').

I haven't seen WaveLab 6 yet but was given a demonstration of Audition yesterday and was bowled over by these new tools. It's not so much that there's anything that absolutely can't be done in Sound Forge; rather that (1) quite a few things would be very much easier and quicker than they are at the moment (being able to select by both frequency and time would sometimes be phenomenally useful), and (2) some things could be done by relatively inexperienced users (it's often both easy to see what needs doing and easy to do it) that would be out of the question at the moment. A simple waveform display alone is comparatively very limiting and these are features that Sound Forge 9.0 is going to have to have to remain competitive (though I recognise that it would mean a huge upheaval).

On a related subject, I do wish it were possible to see more than one plug-in at a time. When it comes to metering and analysis plug-ins (I use Elemental Audio's Inspector XL), the current generation of Sony products are often frustrating and sometimes almost unusable.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: kbruff

Date:2/8/2006 7:11:28 AM

Well I have evaluated Audition and Wavelab, I have a tendency to think that they are both very advanced in their own unique way. For wave editing and batch processing I have been going back and forth with SF8 and WL5. For mastering I have been using WL5 and finally for recording audio I have been using SF8 for non-automated recording tasks.

I would really like to see the following if at all possible…

1. Particularly at least 8 stereo tracks capability for better file mixing and mastering.
2. Surround Sound Mastering for the Multi-track section
3. A real-time spectroscope
4. A spectral bar plot which can be docked and then viewed while the recording is taking place, Wavelab has a nice graphic display, it is very handy
5. Surface control compatibility, like Mackie
6. Master section to allow quick identification and isolation / inclusion of pluggins
7. Fix the ASIO issue upon install of 8.0b
8. Permit users to trade pluggin settings through a web portal that would permit packaging and ftp of pluggin settings for pre-existing Sony Media Pluggins and others
9. Automatic script generator based on Mouse movements and dialog events
10. Finally a report generator which indicates
a. The File properties
b. The pluggins used
i. The pluggin setting name
c. The operator of the session
d. Time management stats

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: kbruff

Date:2/8/2006 7:14:02 AM

Inspector XL -- looks great!!!

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:2/8/2006 7:28:01 AM

"What specific features do you use that makes these applications more attractive or useful than Sound Forge 8.0?"

Firstly - let's be fair and say for the most part (standard editing, plugin usage etc etc) all three of these editors pretty much do the same thing....I can get around in WL just as easy as Forge. (Audition is another story - yuck!).

There is not much else between WL and Forge that would make me choose one over the other when talking about the basics. (I do love how Forge intergrates with Vegas!)

However for my work (VO, sound design, mutlimedia post etc), my choice of Wavelab over Forge really came down to a single critical workflow element - The Batch Processor.

I cannot describe the excitement I felt and then the disappointment I felt when I first laid my hands on Forge V8.0...the Batch Processor was being hyped in the press materials as being the be-all and end all....in actual fact and usage - it looked more like a junior scripter at Sony whipped something up over the weekend and installed it under the Tools menu.

I won't go into the specifics about just how bad this thing is for professional batch work (enough folks on the forum already have)....but suffice to say...WL cannot be compared. (and this comparison is against V4 of Wavelab from 2002)

It's BP tool is elegant, extremely flexible and lightning fast - the three exact things I need. Couple its design with the new file naming enhancements in V6 (which I haven't tried yet) and I am in heaven.

I don't often use the word "perfect" when describing software elements...but the BP in WL is pretty much perfect for my workflow.

Forge could use better metering...it needs better plugin management...hell...it needs better plugins period....but it really needs a Batch Processor overhaul.

I mean - I can't even get the Batch processor to write correct ID3 tags like Title for the most basic of MP3 conversions - so what is the point of staying with this app?

I haven't laid down my bread for WL 6 as of yet - please give me some indication that there still maybe a reason to come back to Forge.

Over to you.

VP

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: ghova

Date:2/8/2006 7:47:34 AM

A different point of view here... our company has used SF since the 4.5 days.

Multichannel editing isn't that big a deal for us; otherwise we'd have switched to Vegas or Wavelab (though our production department uses ProTools for multichannel editing).

.NET scripting is a godsend, and something I haven't seen in the competitors yet. We have an automated batch environment that has to work on its own, and the level of control/sentience I have through .NET is pretty amazing.

As for batch conversion... we use Batch Converter 5. The fact that I can have multiple BC5 windows running while still being able to work in Sound Forge is something the current SF batch converter can't compete with.

I've doodled with the Wavelab demo and it seems neat; but there isn't enough that's significantly better that would justify our department switching.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:2/8/2006 11:05:22 AM

> I have evaluated Audition and Wavelab

The spectral analysis views are new in Audition 2.0 and WaveLab 6.

> A real-time spectroscope

It's available already surely: View, Spectrum Analysis.

> A spectral bar plot which can be docked and then viewed while the recording is taking place

Ditto.

These are very definitely not what I'm talking about however: the new Audition 2.0 views allow selections to be made within the spectral displays (they're static just like Sound Forge's waveform Data Window) and this is what is so extremely useful.

I'm not suggesting that I would be abandoning Sound Forge incidentally but I would expect to use Audition a fair bit of the time if Sound Forge 9.0 can't offer comparable tools.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:2/8/2006 11:29:15 AM

> Multichannel editing isn't that big a deal for us... .NET scripting is a godsend

I definitely want to see Sound Forge developed as a mastering tool rather than multi-track recorder (though sooner or later surround sound may become necessary - it's not something I deal with at the moment).

I was pleased to see scripting added (though I confess I've made little use of it so far - in contrast to the triumph that is scripting in Vegas) but hope it won't make the kind of overhaul I'd like to see more difficult to implement.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:2/8/2006 12:58:12 PM

Folks, I''m quite aware of what these other applications offer for features.

What I'm asking is precisely how they are useful to you. What do you use them for? In terms of the task, not necessarily the tool.

J.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: juan2004

Date:2/8/2006 1:47:16 PM

What these others applications offers is more comfort and more intuitive tools for to do better and quick tasks.

J; Sound Forge is a very good app. but in the last version, SF8 came with fews and powerfull tools for the exigencies for the present.

In nowdays many producers and editors works with AC-3 files (5.1 sourround, or 6 channels), the AC-3 files is doing edited like MP3 or WAV files, like in the old times.

Acid Pro 5 and Vegas 6 cans create AC-3 files but these can't edit AC-3 files preserving the 6 channels separately and after render the same AC-3 in a new AC-3 file with the 6 channels.

The Noise Reduction tools in SF8 are nice, but in Audition are most powefull since the 1.5 version .

The tools to "see" the sound in SF8 are good but in WabeLab are more helpfulls.... Yes I now what the comparisons are hatefulls. but it is the true.

Sorry if some useer or administrator was felt discomfort with these compations..

But that is what we are looking for.

Juan

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:2/8/2006 3:12:44 PM

"What I'm asking is precisely how they are useful to you. What do you use them for? In terms of the task, not necessarily the tool."

What do I use WL for:

For my primary tasks - I currently use Wavelab from start to finish to record, edit and prepare my voiceover deliverables to a variety of clients in a variety of formats.

My task requirements are many (and many of them actually work fine in Forge) but the biggest one by far is a very efficient method of batch processing every open (completed) file using a strict set of metadata so that every deliverable bears my specific, particular attributes. My deliverables are heard on radio, TV, commercial and industrial narratives, multimedia training and many other gernes and creating a fast, flexible processing workflow is beyond critical for me.

Extremely flexible file naming/renaming and folder creation plus rock solid auto split functionality (for narratives, sound design etc) are very important as well.

How is WL useful to me:

Without trying to compare and list every feature - speed and flexibility and above all - stability make this app a dream to use. I have never had WL crash even once even during the most demanding sessions. From it's Master Section to Montage to it's ability to practically save any sort of task as a template are above cool.

Plus - bugs are very rare with this app. If something is discovered - it is fixed immediately. And all this from a single guy.

VP

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: kbruff

Date:2/9/2006 6:27:55 AM

So here are some details -- I guess...

1.Particularly at least 8 stereo tracks capability for better file mixing and mastering.
The Audio montage feature allows me to create sound effects, crop/splice/stitch various segments of audio, which could be a different file type, data rate and resolution. Furthermore I have access to automation per track which allows incredible control over the final mix without leaving the sound editing environment. Furthermore I could easily set up my CD/CD text and content list.

2. Surround Sound Mastering for the Multi-track section
In Wavelab this is very easy since each track could contain virtually any data and again they can be at different resolutions, etc. and the panning and volume criteria could easily be automated.

3. A real-time spectroscope
In Wavelab you have spectroscope that can be useful for observing stereo microphone techniques and setting up phasing for different recording effects.
THERE IS NO SPECTROSCOPE IN SOUND FORGE

4. A spectral bar plot which can be docked and then viewed while the recording is taking place, Wavelab has a nice graphic display, it is very handy. This is useful from the point of view seeing how non – metered gear conditions signals, therefore without actually recording a WAVELAB session can be used just as meter!!!!
AGAIN – There is no spectral bar plot in SOUND FORGE at the recording window!!!!

5. Master section to allow quick identification and isolation / inclusion of pluggins
In Wavelab this is easy since it can be docked on secondary monitor and then opened viewed and manipulated.

So there you have it.
Kevin

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Ben 

Date:2/9/2006 7:06:00 AM

>>> 5. Master section to allow quick identification and isolation / inclusion of pluggins
In Wavelab this is easy since it can be docked on secondary monitor and then opened viewed and manipulated. <<<

Errr, it's called the plugin chainer in Sound Forge and has been there since version 6. It's dockable anywhere you like.

I see what you guys are coming from regarding spectral displays, etc... but the thing about Wavelab as far as I'm concerned is that the UI sucks, pure and simple. It's a horrible interface, very unintuitive and doesn't hold a candle to Sony's interfaces. Moreover, I find the waveform displays in Wavelab to be particulary nasty, especially for editing... and just hurt the eyes! Regarding the montage stuff - no thanks. That's what Vegas is for.

One thing that has always bothered me in Sound Forge is the Window pull down menu for accessing your waveforms. It gets really clumsy when you've got more than a few waves open, and the 'More Windows' window doesn't help at all. In Sound Forge 9 I'd like to see a dockable 'waveforms' window which scrolls and lists the waveforms you have open - double click or drag to open. Pretty much like the Vegas media pool type concept. Would be a <very> nice workflow addition.

B

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: kbruff

Date:2/9/2006 8:00:09 AM

I am aware of the pluggin chainer -- but it is not the same as the master section GUI.

Furthurmore the pluggin chainer has some interesting graphical issues like resizing of pluggin interfaces become very annoying since it is not remembered by the system, during that session.

Lastly everyone talks about the WL GUI, but it is not as annoying as unforgiving crashes or the Batch converter issues for example:

1) file naming should interface to an comma delimited or tab delimited or excel data sheet.
2) Batch converter should generate summary file

Also the GUI can be modified and furthermore the GUI is what you see not what you hear, and after all it is all about what we can hear correct?

The requirement of switching between applications (Vegas to Sund Forge, etc.) to commit tasks which should be done in one environment is occassionally annoying.

I am not saying that there is one tool for all needs, but some needs should be met like basic multitrack maybe 8 mono 4 stereo, etc. Meters for each track - spectral and peak indicators.

I love SoundForge but it is just that my work requires more capabilities as outlined before.

Thanks - again
Kevin

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:2/9/2006 6:13:40 PM

If you are wanting to do multichannel mixing, use an application that does that - Vegas or Acid ! I

prefer SF to retain it's focus on it's primary function - soundfile editing, without clutter, without complication, and without gratuitous 'prettiness' that may indeed give some other apps a 'wow' factor..

If these other apps do other functions then it's comparing apples to oranges. If that makes SF seem overpriced, well that's a different matter.

If am am recording or editing stereo or 5.q2 the last thing I want cluttering my menus is a whole bunch of tools related to WAVEFORM editing. I'll just right-click and click ' Open in Audio Editing applicvation' for that.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: ibliss

Date:2/9/2006 7:06:51 PM

Yes Geoff, but how about editing mulitchannel audio files? Vegas can't do it, Soundforge can't do it.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:2/11/2006 2:08:33 AM

You mean more than 2-channel ?

geoff

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: ibliss

Date:2/11/2006 3:27:51 AM

Yes. Sorry, I never really think of 2-chan/stereo when I say multichannel, even though technically it is!

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:2/12/2006 5:00:24 PM

I guess things also get confused when people misuse the term 'editing'. SF is an editor that works on mono or stereo audio files.

What Vegas and Acid do wrt, say AC3 files, is to split them out to individual audio tracks, which can be tweaked en-masse or individulaly in those apps, or opened (individually) in SF for waveform or other finer editing.

If other apps bundle all that into one app and that's what you want., then you pays yer money and makes yer choice.

geoff

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: juan2004

Date:2/14/2006 7:38:22 PM

Well I saw all the replies and oppinions from everyone, and the opinons are hot, about the Sound Forgr, Audition and WaveLab.

At least, we only can says opinions and viewpoints about this matter, the last word or the final decision has it the engineers and programmers.

We hope what they listens our opinions and take note about it.

Juan

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: Angels

Date:2/16/2006 9:55:05 PM

I've been using SF since version 4. I acquired Wavelab last year and today I can't imagine working with only one of them because neither is complete for my needs. What I find myself using Wavelab for is the following:

1. Advanced audio analysis
2. More looping options for looping audio samples
3. The ability to time-stretch to a sample SIZE.
4. Resampling of the audio output to audition any sample rate when using a card with fixed sample rates.
5. Sophisticated auto-split and export functions
6. Finding the exact Pitch of a sample

I prefer Forge for mostly everything else but it's mainly because of the familiarity. In many cases, whatever I transfer to Wavelab stays there to the end of the editing unless I need something that only Forge can do. Working with odd sampling rates can only be comfortably done for me in Wavelab because of the output resampling (RME Multiface 1). One thing that wins hands down is being able to use Forge online with Vegas or Acid. This still can't be done with Wavelab and SX/nuendo.

Angels

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:2/22/2006 6:59:03 AM

The attraction of Audition 2.0's Spectral Frequency Display is that cleaning up material (whether removing the unwanted or emphasising the significant) appears to be often no more difficult (and need no more expert knowledge) than basic photo retouching.

Wen working with non-musical material there's a limit to what can easily be done non-destructively.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:2/22/2006 12:22:49 PM

>>>Errr, it's called the plugin chainer in Sound Forge and has been there since version 6. It's dockable anywhere you like.

I see what you guys are coming from regarding spectral displays, etc... but the thing about Wavelab as far as I'm concerned is that the UI sucks, pure and simple. It's a horrible interface, very unintuitive and doesn't hold a candle to Sony's interfaces. Moreover, I find the waveform displays in Wavelab to be particulary nasty, especially for editing... and just hurt the eyes! Regarding the montage stuff - no thanks. That's what Vegas is for.

One thing that has always bothered me in Sound Forge is the Window pull down menu for accessing your waveforms. It gets really clumsy when you've got more than a few waves open, and the 'More Windows' window doesn't help at all. In Sound Forge 9 I'd like to see a dockable 'waveforms' window which scrolls and lists the waveforms you have open - double click or drag to open. Pretty much like the Vegas media pool type concept. Would be a <very> nice workflow addition.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Yes, that is true with wavelab 5...the UI isn't as great as forge (I think it's why I try and use it when I can).
But...
forge needs some major attention right now...(see my reply to this thread: http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=429788&Replies=31)

the batch cvrtr has bugs, freezes galore in the app while editing, just kind of a stability nightmare right now.

Now...
if sony ever delves back into forge and fixes things - all will be fine.

Many moved to wavelab when 8 hit and seeing all the problems.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:2/22/2006 12:47:18 PM

4. A spectral bar plot which can be docked and then viewed while the recording is taking place...a WAVELAB session can be used just as meter!!!!
AGAIN – There is no spectral bar plot in SOUND FORGE at the recording window!!!!

I know it's not everything you want but are you aware that the Spectrum Analysis tool can be used in such a way? Just select 'Real Time Monitoring' and 'Monitor: Input'.

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: kbruff

Date:2/23/2006 4:43:57 AM

Hi Barleycorn,

Out of curiousity have you used WAVELAB 5.0b and seen the many different ways you can monitor the incoming signals?

Thanks

Subject:RE: the WaveLab 6 & Audition 2 precense...

Reply by: barleycorn

Date:2/23/2006 5:55:22 AM

I was in no way suggesting that Sound Forge's Spectrum Analysis tool is comparable to WaveLab's metering (which is in a different league). I simply wanted to point out that it does have 'A spectral bar plot which can be docked and then viewed while the recording is taking place' (it's a far from elegant solution but some people may not be aware of it at all).