Subject:Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Posted by: drbam

Date:12/26/2005 8:28:55 PM

Finally started using SF 8.0b and have been working on editing some some lectures. The files are mono, 44/16. I'm getting random program freezes when apply minimal kinds of processing such as -3 or -6 db of volume on very short sections (like plosives). I don't get an error message that I can copy - just SF showing "Not Responding" at the top. I have to quit SF and my work is "recovered" but this is obviously a PITA. I've used SF 6 & 7 on dozens of these lectures in the past and never had this happen. I haven't changed any settings in my hardware and as far as I can tell, all of the basic settings are the same as I use with SF7. Any ideas??

Thanks,

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Ryan Jaeger

Date:12/26/2005 10:38:07 PM

I get them all the time when previewing things in real time.
Not sure what causes it.
/VJ

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/27/2005 5:45:06 AM

Thanks. Although I perform real time previews (absolutely necessary IMO), these freezes happened while applying the effect. Actually it seemed like the effect was already applied (finished) and when I hit play is when the freeze occured. Again these were minimal efx – a few milliseconds of volume adjustment, certainly nothing that taxes my system in any way.

There were a lot of features added to SF 8, so perhaps I'm missing something regarding a preference setting or something but I can't imagine what it might be. I NEVER had a freeze or lock up of any kind with SF 7. Anyone else???

Thanks,

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: wbtczn

Date:12/27/2005 1:17:11 PM

I'm getting the same thing. It seems to happen once every 60 - 90 minutes. I'm usually doing the same type of minor change when it occurs.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/27/2005 1:33:00 PM

"I'm getting the same thing. It seems to happen once every 60 - 90 minutes."

mmmmm, I didn't think about the timing but you may be right about this. It "seems" to be what I'm experiencing. I'm getting ready to continue this project in a few minutes and I'll see if I can document the timing more closely. However, I more tempted to just say "screw it" and go back to SF 7 so I can stay focused on my work instead of troubleshooting this app. Maybe a Sony rep will show up here with some ideas but I won't hold my breath. . .

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: wbtczn

Date:12/27/2005 2:28:23 PM

I just had it open and switched screens to some other things (this forum, e-mail, etc.). When I went back, it was toast. I'm going to have to get into the habit of saving quite often.

I agree, hopefully one of the Sony gurus, or someone like chienworks can help us out.

No pressure gurus!!! ;)

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/27/2005 4:09:27 PM

Stripes: your comment about timing was dead on. Had a freeze at 1:48 – I had the clock running to log time for this project (this time it froze after applying some noise reduction). Anyway, I'm back on SF 7. I'm not about to keep hitting save because I'm working with unreliable software.

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: rraud

Date:12/29/2005 5:06:49 PM

Yeah, this lock-up problem is a real pain. I've told tech support about this months ago. I cannot duplicate the sequence or actions that make it happen so tech support can't help. (or doesn't want to)
Time to change to Wavelab and Sonar I guess.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/29/2005 8:16:05 PM

I'm glad to know I'm not alone but that's not much consolation.

Another thing I noticed while switching back and forth between SF 7 & 8 is that SF 7 "seems" a little snappier than 8. Its a slight difference but definitely noticeable. My system is fairly modest so it could be the extra features in SF 8 are slowing things down a bit? Its not a big issue but just something I wanted to note.

I've never used ANY stereo editor other than Sound Forge (started with SF 4), but at this point I might check out Wavelab. I'm getting tired of spending money on stuff I can't use. :(

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/31/2005 7:43:10 PM

Are you using ASIO or Wave drivers when the freeze occurs? (Does it make any difference?)

Peter

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: rraud

Date:12/31/2005 9:56:13 PM

Thanks for your concern......
I use the classic wave drivers.

This is troubling .. because I find it next to imposible to re-create the symptoms or actions. Mostly it seems to (I think) involve resizing the wave-form display after opening SF-8 and/or using a plug-in (preview or process).... and then again.. it happens with just the Graphic EQ process .. It usually happens soon after opening SF, .. then if it does not lock -up for a while.. I can continue usually without problems.. BUT THE STRESS!!!
I count on this software professionally and I have just about had it.

SF- Sony, Feel free to contact me by phone. I do wish to help, despite my rants.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/1/2006 6:20:05 AM

"Are you using ASIO or Wave drivers when the freeze occurs? (Does it make any difference?)"

Thanks Peter! I'm using the Wave drivers (Echo Pure Wave). And no I haven't switched drivers to see if it makes a difference. The problem occurs after working for about 1:30 to 1:50. I finished the project I was working on in SF7 and haven't found time to just edit something in SF8 for a couple of hours to see if I get a freeze. However, I did discover that I was mistaken in original comment about not changing any settings. I had forgotten that during the install of SF8 I assigned the temp files to a folder in my data drive instead of allowing it to default to the system drive as I've always done in the past. The only reason I did this was because I happened to remember reading that the data drive was preferred. I've never encountered any previous problems related to temp files being located on the system drive with Vegas or SF. I reassigned the temp files to the system drive but again, haven't been able run a 2 hour test to see if it made a difference.

(BTW, the freeze problem I'm experiencing is radically different from what rraud describes he is experincing)

Thanks again,

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: rraud

Date:1/1/2006 2:31:34 PM

I use classic wave driver mode with an Echo/ Mia sound card. I also did a clean re-install of 8-c hoping it would fix it.... when that up-date came out ....... It didn't....
I notifiied tech support on numerous occaations, which fell on deaf ears. (no pun)
Again.... Sony's tech support responce:..... "that's your PCs problem, It is not ours"


I see Wavelab and Slow-tools in my furture.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:1/1/2006 4:17:55 PM

rraud - Not a totally unreasonable response as it would appear to be a problem relating to your computer rather than the application which is at fault. But it sure would be nice to try and identify exactly what it is wrong with you os, interefering application, driver, or hardware - and and enable you to run the software sucessfully.

I would suggest you check you soundcard driver for updates (or even try another soundcard as an experiment - borrow a USB one or something), and make sure any 'digital input' is not open in your mixer applet while recording from an analogue in.

geoff

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: rraud

Date:1/2/2006 1:31:36 PM

This is a custom build DAW. And gets used for only that. No internet or any other use. I have checked pretty much everything. No IRQ conflics and have the lattest drivers installed. SF-6, 7 and Vegas run without problems.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Steven Myers

Date:1/3/2006 6:55:51 AM

I get the freezes when I try to preview an effect with the real time box checked, but not always.
When I press Preview, there is no preview, ever. Sometimes SF locks up, and sometimes Stop works and I can get out of the dialog.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: StuRS

Date:1/12/2006 4:04:41 AM

I have had both Sound Forge 8.0b and my current Sound Forge Studio 8 freeze whilst performing an effect preview.

I will have to try and recreate this and send the details to support.

My solution......I dont use the effects and thus running an expensive sample editor. Should have saved myself £50 and got Audacity.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: UliS

Date:1/12/2006 9:36:57 AM

We see the same problem here. random freezes with sf 8b, often happens when having more than 20 files open in sf.
my workaround: uninstalling 8, back to 7.
7 also is much faster (even on a very fast up-to-date machine)

uli

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:1/12/2006 1:29:29 PM

Okay, this discussion is so divergent I'm having trouble following. So if you are experiencing any of these described behaviors, please answer the following (and include the numbers in your response for clarity).

(1) What happens?
(a) Sound Forge goes Not Responding (with hourglass?).
(b) Sound Forge actually crashes (and the dump says?)
(c) Sound Forge just locks up with no feedback whatsoever.

(2) What exact action immediately precedes it?
(a) hit Preview or Stop on a modal DirectX or VST effect (e.g. Effects->Chorus) (anything with the "Real-time" checkbox is this type)
(b) after OK'ing (processing) a modal DirectX or VST effect
(c) hit Preview or Stop on a native effect (e.g. Process->Volume)
(d) after OK'ing (processing) a native effect
(e) when previewing or processing the plug-in chainer
(f) when doing a cut/copy/paste operation
(g) when starting playback, record, or scrub
(h) other...

(3) If applicable, what plug-in, set of plug-ins, or other effect?

(4) What driver model and latency?

(5) What file type and format?

Also, please fill in your system specs in your forum profile if you haven't.

If your specific issue is confined to real-time modal DirectX or VST effects, you can *try* this internal tweak: Hold down Ctrl+Shift and select Options->Preferences. Go to the "Internal" tab and type "throttle" in the search box. If the value for "Throttle Real-time FX Preview" is 0, change it to 20. If it's non-zero, change it to zero. Then tab or click out of the box to commit, then OK.

The quiet-sections comments, on the other hand, almost sounds like some type of denormal issue. If you are seeing that (on a P4), note the effect, approximate levels, and wait a little while to see if it comes back.

Since the original problem seems very intermittent, here's another thing that might really help (if you're able/willing to share the material). If you get the crash, restart, and crash-recovery gets you back all of your history, save it as a .frg project and drop a line here so I can find a place for you to upload it.

J.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: wbtczn

Date:1/13/2006 11:12:13 PM

J. - I've had a couple of e-mail exchanges with support -- do you want me to post that here?

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/14/2006 6:03:13 AM

"J. - I've had a couple of e-mail exchanges with support -- do you want me to post that here?"

Can't speak for J but I certainly am interested in reading the support comments you received.

Thanks,

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: wbtczn

Date:1/14/2006 11:57:12 AM

I sent a note to support on 12/27, asking them to look at this thread and the issue were are having. Here's the exchange support and I have been having. I have not had time to do the last test they've asked for.

What are the "types of drivers" support is asking about (and have been asked about in this thread)?

***** Support's 1st response *****
Response (Rob A.) 01/09/2006 04:00 PM
Hello,

Thanks for writing.

There are many reasons this may be happening, and we will need more information to determine which ones apply to you. For starters, what audio device are you using with Sound Forge, and what type of drivers is it using? ASIO, WDM? Also, what are some steps that usually produce this crash for you? Can you give us some steps to try and reproduce this error? Do you have any other audio applications on your computer? Do they run well, or do they have problems as well?

You should also check your background processes, to make sure you don't have an overload of system and hidden software running in the shadows. To do this, press Ctrl+Alt+Del at the same time and you will see a list of the programs currently running (some users will have to hit the "Task Manager" button). Move over to the Processes Tab and click the "Image Name" heading at the top left of this window to view these items in alphabetical order. Close everything showing on that list except for the items listed below. To end a process, highlight it and click the End Process button at the bottom of the window.

End every process except for:

alg.exe
ccmexec.exe
csrss.exe
explorer.exe
lsass.exe
MsPMSPSv.exe
services.exe
smss.exe
spoolsv.exe
svchost.exe (there may be more than one of these, you can leave them all running)
System Idle Process
System
taskmgr.exe
winlogon.exe
wmiprvse.exe

You may have other Users logged into the system and displayed on this list, but make sure you log them off and close down their processes as well.

Another thing to check would be your IRQ addresses. To do this:

1. Go to Start/Control Panel.

2. Double-click on System (If you do not see System, then you will need to click on "Switch to Classic View" on the left.)

3. Click the "Hardware" tab.

4. Click the "Device Manager" button.

5. In the Device Manager window, go to View/Resources by type.

6. Expand "Interrupt request (IRQ)."

Look for "IEEE 1394 Host Controller" in the list. Which number is assigned to it? Has the same number been assigned to other devices? If so, which ones?

Sincerely,

Rob A.

***** My first response *****
Customer (Mike Peterson) 01/09/2006 07:32 PM
Here's the additional info -- thanks for the help!

Sound card: Voyetra Turtle Beach - Santa Cruz
Driver file version 5.12.01.4112-3187
Driver date: 8/29/2001
Type of drivers it is using (ASIO, WDM)? -- I don't know...how do I find out?

Steps to recreate the error: When it occured for me was after being in Sound Forge for 1 to 1.5 hours and then I switch out to Outlook or Internet Explorer. When I returned to Sound Forge, it was toast.

Other audio apps: Just Windows Media Player; no problems. Also, this did not happen when I was using Sound Forge Audio Studio 7.0.

I've included a Microsoft Word doc which has screen prints of my running processes. You'll see there is a lot more there than what you had listed.

IEEE 1394 Host Controller is assigned to IRQ 18. There is nothing else assigned to 18.


Hope that helps!

***** Supports's 2nd response *****

Discussion Thread
Response (Rob A.) 01/12/2006 09:56 AM
Hello,

Thanks for replying.

Have you tried ending all processes in that list except the ones listed in my previous email? This will allow us to figure out if another background program is conflicting with the Sound Forge software. Also, please try to end any tray programs(usually icons near your clock in the lower-right corner of the screen) before ending these processes.

Sincerely,

Rob A.
Technical Support
Sony Media Software
1617 Sherman Ave
Madison, WI 53704
http://www.sony.com/mediasoftware
http://www.acidplanet.com

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: rraud

Date:1/14/2006 7:17:31 PM

Thanks for your attention to this issue.
I am trying the suggested "Throttle Real-time FX Preview" adj. and will post the results.

Problem: Sound Forge 8.0 locks -up
Current ver. 8.0b - Build 110
PC: Digital Audio Wave DAW, Intel P4, 2.8 Mhz - 512 RAM
OS: Win XP Pro, SP-1
Drives: Two Internal IDE, 80G for OS & programs &120G SATA for media / 1 virtual swap file via Partition Magic.

This PC is DAW "audio only", has never been connected to the internet nor does it have a modem and NO other applications are running.
Other system info posted under my profile.

(1) What happens?
-- (a) Sound Forge goes Not Responding

(2) zWhat exact action immediately precedes it?
-- (i) all of the above? except (g) I think

(3) If applicable, what plug-in, set of plug-ins, or other effect?
-- None or many.. but it seems to happen more often with the graphic EQ alone.

(4) What driver model and latency?
- Windows Classic, Default latency (Echo Mia soundcard w/ latest driver)

(5) What file type and format?
-Mono and stereo Wave & Aiff. (44.1 & 48k)

Description of
This intermitant lock up problem has occured since the initial installation of SF-8.0
When SF-8.0b was released, I uninstalled 8.0a and did a "clean" installation of 8.0b but the same intermittent lock-up condition remains.
I have tried many times but can't duplicate a sequence or condition that triggers the lock-up and can not detect any syptoms which leads to this. Sometimes this happens almost immediatly upon the start of a session, sometimes it happens after many, many edits and/or process', this leads me to beleve it is not heat related as was suggested here and in other forums. Plug-ins, chains, processor sequence, file size, .wave or aiff /mono or stereo ' do not seem to make any difference. I do mostly deal with mono 44.1/16 wave files, though this has happened with 44.1 & 48k /16 stereo wav and aiff as well. This also seems to happen more when the graphic EQ is selected. (no chain). I also use the scroll wheel a lot to change the waveform view if that could have any affect???
When the lock-up occurs, a double-arrow usually appears, followed by the hour-glass icon and the top menu bar turns completly white. Waiting is futile, I left the PC on overenight once.
The only function that will work in SF is the "Exit" button. (X) Which will display "This program is not responding, Do you wish to exit, ect., ect.. End task?" After re-starting SF, the only error message is: "There is a conflict with another application's temporary folder. Do you wish to Reset?" This cannot be re-set to the same folder unless the PC and SF are "shut-down' and cold started. Any information in the clipboard is also lost. The temp files are retreiveable. Any exiting pre-sets and new ones that were created prior to the crash ARE available.

All other PC functions and applications seem unaffected. I have also tried different sound cards. In addition I removed all VST plug-ins as an experment .. no fix.

Thanks again for your attention to getting this resolved.

Rick

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Steven Myers

Date:1/16/2006 12:41:12 PM

Naturally, after you posted, I couldn't replicate the problem. Until now.
The problem happens when I invoke Sound Forge from within another app. Vegas, SONAR, same same.
At this moment, I am using Vegas 6.0c. I right-click to Open Copy in Sound Forge. I highlight a section of the clip and invoke Sony Click and Crackle Removal. Click Preview. No sound. If I click Stop, the button changes back to Preview, but it's all locked up. If I wait for a long time, I can click Cancel and get out of the dialog.

(1) What happens?
(a) Sound Forge goes Not Responding (with hourglass).

(2) What exact action immediately precedes it?
(a) hit Preview or Stop on a modal DirectX or VST effect (e.g. Effects->Chorus) (anything with the "Real-time" checkbox is this type)

(3) If applicable, what plug-in, set of plug-ins, or other effect?
Sony Click and Crackle Removal -- but there are others

(4) What driver model and latency?
Delta .27, 64

(5) What file type and format?
.WAV 48/16

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/16/2006 3:12:48 PM

Interesting as well as disappointing that none of us are that are experiencing SF "freezing" or locking up are doing anything similar that may help assess the problem. The actions tididit described are very different than mine (which I describe in my earlier posts). Oh well. . .

drbam

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: rraud

Date:1/27/2006 3:59:22 PM

I changed the "Internal > throttle" setting as suggested and SF seemed okay for a while... and thought it may be fixed..., but today SF froze again losing 30 min.s of work. (Yes I know I should save more often) Damn.
Could this have anything to do with hitting a key by mistake or scolling AND hitting a key by mistake??
I have tried but can't repro this.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: cabonium

Date:1/28/2006 4:37:12 PM

I'm getting the same freezing here in the demo.. very painfull

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: grig

Date:1/30/2006 11:18:00 AM

yeah, same here!!

freezes on previews & then crashes with some effects (EQ, pitch shift,...), but works ok when used via the plug-in chainer!!

VERY VERY PAINFULL!!

Sony, any solution to that massive bug feedback?

peace,
GriG

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Multitech

Date:1/30/2006 9:50:11 PM

I had sporadic lockups as well with the latest Echo drivers (WINXP) in PureWave mode. Changing back to the standard WDM worked fine.

This occured with the latest build that lost ASIO support or doesn't mention it in the reinstall. I will have to try and do a full uninstall and see if I can use them then.

You may also try to do a full uninstall of Sound Forge and then reinstall.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Ben 

Date:1/31/2006 4:55:37 AM

Last consistently stable release = SF 6.

:-|

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: Steven Myers

Date:2/8/2006 11:10:10 AM

This morning I was working in Vegas 6.0c. I right-clicked on an audio event and chose Opened Copy in Sound Forge. I applied a Cakewalk plug-in and tried to preview it. The system did not lock up, but there was no preview. So I applied the plug and listened to the result, then backed out to Vegas.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:2/22/2006 2:28:00 AM

Yes, I'm seeing tons of "not responding" freezes in sf8 and sf8b.

I have to say, I find it ridculous that sony/sf hasn't seen this issue (at least once or twice), unless testing consists of 2-3 older hardware test systems and they test each process once before shipping it.

Is it reproducable...not easy to answer as it's so sporadic. So yes, I can say it happens a LOT when your business is converting/editing audio files all day. Enough to give nod to the others saying they aren't confident in their audio editor anymore - it's a crapshoot in sf8/b.
I've had it happen endlessly each day.

ALSO....
You're auto trim plugin does NOT work in the sf8/sf8b batch converter.
It works as it should in the old sfoundry batch converter 5.0b.
Ante up for proper testing - it's worth it.

Where are the updates?
Forge 7 has it's issues as well and no batch converter, so I'm feeling a Wavelab purchase happening very soon. I need a SOLID audio editor AND a solid batch converter !!!

repro scenario - the freezes happen on two home studio systems so far.
Older Intel P4 2ghz/i845 chipset and now the same with my upgrade AMD X2 4400 system/nforce3 ultra chipset.

All had clean installs/winxppro. Just using two delta 1010's (not the "LT" delta 1010's) with the .27 drivers (MME drivers only).

What I would love to see is more techs looking into this problem. I fear you havn't heard much about it as most have moved to Wavelab or other editors.

Please...
Please go over the batch converter in sf8 too. Sheesh, it's half-a$$ at best.
Too bad the old 5.0b bcvrtr isn't still supported (hell, i think it works better than sf8's).

here' s to hoping for good news on all this

Even if some of you have not experienced it yet (in which case I'm betting forge isn't used much then), I would try to keep this thread alive.
Stability is and should ALWAYS be #1 ...then worry about more features.
The old SFoundry in it's day used to adhere to this as much as possible, now I'm not so sure.

Subject:RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:2/22/2006 2:04:57 PM

I have finally reproduced this problem and discovered the root cause.

In light of this and other known bugs, another update for 8.0 is highly probable.

In the meantime....

If you are previewing DirectX or VST plug-ins modally (i.e. via Process, Effects, or FX Favorites menus) and tend to work with very short selections, a couple things may help.

1) Use the chainer instead. Handy tip: note that you can drag and drop from the Plug-In Manager onto an open file to add the plug-in to the chain.

2) Uncheck "Real-Time". This should bypass the problem entirely and will have little effect on response for selections up to 5 seconds or so (for most effects). See Options->Prefs->Previews for more non-realtime options.

3) If that is unacceptable, it may help to stop previewing within the modal dialog and wait a beat before hitting OK or Cancel.

J.