Subject:Audio from Vegas does not match Sound Forge?

Posted by: nexis1

Date:10/31/2005 3:36:12 PM

While editing my video, I tell Vegas to open a copy in Sound Forge of audio that sounds bad or clips on Vegas time line. In Sound Forge, it's quieter and does not clip or sound lousy. What's happening here? I've checked my volume levels in Vegas...they're set at zero and the gain is at the top of the audio track. Shouldn't Vegas sync up with Sound Forge or vice versa? Please help before I ruin my audio track!

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: rraud

Date:11/1/2005 8:45:06 AM

If you open a selected "event" as "Open a copy in Sound Forge. It only opens that clip or segment, where as if you "Open in Sound Forge" it opens the entire file with the event high-lighted.
Either way, Vegas volume envelopes or other process' are not imported to SF.

If that's what your asking.

Also check your volume envelopes "V" or create a volume envelope Ctrl+V. and access your master and sub-master ouput level controls in View> Mixer or Alt.+4.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: R0cky

Date:11/1/2005 9:32:24 AM

Why does any setting in vegas affect the media file when it's opening in SF? Only if you were to render it to another file should it have any effect on the media file.

On the original question, I have also noticed clipping in Vegas timeline playback that doesn't appear when I open the media file in SF. This is when all of the various level controls are set at 0 dB and there are no effects applied. Apparently Vegas is doing something to the levels for some reason.....

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: nexis1

Date:11/1/2005 1:09:52 PM

Exactly. Clips that clip in Vegas do not clip in Sound forge, WHY?
The clips I am, "open copy in sound forge." have no volume envolopes or effects applied to them yet the sound cleaner in Sound forge, have less head room and come nowhere close to clipping. In vegas a part of a clip may be 2.4db but opened as a copy in sound forge it will max at -1.7db WHY?

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:11/1/2005 3:28:47 PM

Clearly, there is some kind of gain being applied in Vegas.

Which version of Vegas?
Mono or stereo file?
Is track volume 0.0 dB and track pan centered?
Are all track fx removed or bypassed?
Are all busses other than the master muted?

Have you tried the Vegas forum?

J.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: nexis1

Date:11/2/2005 12:09:05 AM

I am using Vegas 6.0b
The files were recorded in mono
Track volume is at zeo db and centered
No track effects
Single bus
The problem does not seem to be a vegas problem
I am glad to hear I am not the only one, but sorry to see that this may not be the place for support.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: Alex_Talionas

Date:11/2/2005 2:40:59 AM

"In vegas a part of a clip may be 2.4db but opened as a copy in sound forge it will max at -1.7db WHY?"

Well, if all your track faders and setting are as you say they are, then in no way should Vegas be displaying a +2.4dB level on the bus meter. The maximum a single sound file can go is 0dB. So if you're adding no gain, like you say you are with your track fader, if you have no volume envelopes enabled and your master fader is set at 0dB and you have no FX's either in the bus insert or the track insert, then in NO WAY should it read +2.4dB.

An easy thing to overlook is that Vegas actually has 2 track faders per track and 2 faders per bus. Did you check both of them? Click on the little Gear Icon in the Track and Bus....or the proper name for it is the "Automation settings" icon. Toggle the "Show automation controls On. Take note of that fader level. Now Toggle the "Show Automation controls" off. Take note of that fader level. Are both of them at 0dB in both the track and the bus?

If all four faders are at 0dB, here's something else to check. Once I had something similar like this happen to me. I can't remember the exact scenario or if it was just a dumb user error, but for some reason my playback was hotter in Vegas than what I expected. I believe it was that my media file was at one sampling rate while the Vegas project was at another. I was in a hurry and I think I just changed my project sampling rate to match that of the single media file and the problem seemed to go away. So one further thing to check to see if you've stumbled across something that I thought I had stumbled across. Right click on the audio in the track and select "properties". Under the "media" tab, take note of the sampling rate, the bits, and if it's Stereo or mono file. Now go to FILE>Properties>Audio Tab. Take note of your project Sampling rate, and the number of bits. Change the project sampling rate and the bit debt to match your your media files sampling rate and bit debt, and click "Apply". See if that changes anything as far as levels you see on the master bus. If Sound Forge is displaying -1.7dB on it's meters when you play the file back, and you have all the faders set at 0dB like you say you do in Vegas, then Vegas should also display -1.7dB. I think I might have been working on a surround project when this happened for me....are you working in surround or Stereo for the project? Sorry, I'm a bit fuzzy on what I was doing when I saw this and I was in a hurry and I did something to fix the problem, but I can't remember all the details at this time.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: nexis1

Date:11/2/2005 9:29:04 PM

Alex,
I am a little confused. You say a clip can't go above 0db in vegas, then what is the red indicator above the main bus telling me when it says 2.4db? I have also been under the assumption that Vegas doesn't care what media or bitrate you throw at it?
I have checked to see if anything is different on the faders and everything seems to be in order.
I am editing a full length feature and all my dialogue was recorded the same, I don't see how that could be a problem.
I am kind of shocked that sony does not seem to supporting the software in here. This is the second question I have that has not been answered, the first being about "open copy in sound forge" not functioning. If sony doesnt have an answer they could say that, or that they are working on it.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:11/3/2005 3:54:38 AM

nexis1, this is a peer-to-peer support forum. If you want an answer from SONY you should use the proper tech support channels. True, sometimes the SONY staff will post in here, but they are under no obligation to do so.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:11/3/2005 6:51:24 AM

The file itself cannot contain any samples over 0 dB full scale. Sound Forge is telling you what the actual file levels are.

I have no problems getting precisely the same levels in Sound Forge 8.0 and a new project that matches the file format in Vegas 6.0.

Regardless of whether everything "seems to be in order", if you are seeing something higher in Vegas (particularly higher than 0 dB), there is a gain being applied somewhere in Vegas, either via an effect, envelope, fader, resampling, mixing, or some other routing or process.

I mentioned the Vegas forum because those folks will have more ideas about other items to check. But again, you'll want to check:

- project sample rate
- project bit depth
- track levels
- track pan
- track fx
- bus send/return
- mute/delete all other tracks
- mute/delete all other busses

J.

P.S. I don't see any posts from you regarding problems with Open in Sound Forge, but make sure you are using the most recent update for your version.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: Alex_Talionas

Date:11/3/2005 10:07:20 AM

"I am a little confused. You say a clip can't go above 0db in vegas, then what is the red indicator above the main bus telling me when it says 2.4db? "

It's like I've been saying and the ForumAdmin (J.) is saying. The file clip/media file itself can not go over 0dB. There must be some kind of Gain Value added in Vegas applied additionally to the media file to force its level to go over 0dB. 0dB is the maxium level that a file can have saved to when it is stored on your hard drive.

My feeling is that your problem that you are seeing is due to using a PAN control in Vegas. This is one of the items as far as gain that J. mentioned.

If you have a 0dB peak media file and in Vegas if you use the Default Pan mode of "Add Channels (0dB Center), then if you use the pan control where it is either Panned hard right or hard left or anywhere inbetween the Pan control can add up to +6dB of gain to the original media file. Vegas has a few different PAN mode controls to choose from depending on which type you prefer. This is specifically what the "Add Channels" PAN does.

When you open the file in Sound Forge, you are directly working on the Media File. There are NO Pan controls, no volume faders or anything else applying a gain stage. There is no resampling going on in Sound Forge....Forge plays back the media at the files original sampling rate and bit depth. Vegas will resample the media file to match the Project sampling rate, which could possibly add some gain. If your media file is at the same sampling rate as the project sampling rate, then Vegas does not have to do any resampling. This is why I asked you to change your project sampling rate to match your media file, so it's doing the same thing as Sound Forge is. All these are questions we have asked you, to help you figure out what is going on. If you really want help, then answer the questions and we can help you figure out what is going on. No offense, but It's most likely user misunderstanding on your part.

Q1: Does your sampling rate and bit depth of your media file match the sampling rate and bit depth set in your Vegas project?

Q2: What PAN Type are you using?

Q3: What position is the Pan control set at? Is it at Center or some other location?

Q4: Do you have any plugins on either the Track inserts or the Master Bus Inserts or anywhere else for that matter?

Q5: Do you have the track routed to any other buses or FX buses besides the master bus?

Q6: Do you have the "Normalize" switch enabled on any of the media files?

Q7: Do you have any automation envelopes enabled on the tracks or buses?

Q8: Do you have any Track sends turned up?

Q9: Do you have any other audio tracks which play at the same time in Vegas?

These are all things that can effect the gain of a media file which is being played in Vegas and therefore will show different levels when you open that media file in Sound Forge. If you can answer all these questions you WILL probably find the answer to your question within one of those questions.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: plasmavideo

Date:11/4/2005 1:02:55 PM

Another thing. Where do you have your master fader set in Vegas? It should be at -20 for normal operation.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:11/4/2005 2:02:27 PM

-20? I have mine set at 0 and get proper levels that match the source material.

Subject:RE: Audio from Vegas does not match Sound For

Reply by: rraud

Date:11/5/2005 11:36:26 AM

Plasmavideo: How did you come up with -20dB for "normal operation"?