Subject:EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Posted by: Lostdog

Date:6/7/2005 6:13:08 AM

Hi all
I'm still using Acid Pro 4.0 with an old creative audigy soundcard (16 bit!!). I'm thinking of upgrading my soundcard to a 24 bit - on a tight budget - I've has my eye on Terratec's DMX6 Fire for a while, and it's just dropped in price to around £110. However, I've read very good things about the EMU 1212m, which I can get for around £135. Am I right in saying the EMU card doesn't work well with Acid & Soundforge? Any opinions from users of the Terratec DMX6 Fire?

Thanks v much

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/7/2005 7:31:46 AM

> Am I right in saying the EMU card doesn't work well with Acid & Soundforge?

There have been reports of problems with the EMU card that are currently unresolved. i.e., both EMU and Sony acknowledge them but neither has a solution yet. If you use ACID a lot, I would stay away from these cards.

> Any opinions from users of the Terratec DMX6 Fire?

I'm not a user of the Terratec DMX6 but I looked it up and the first line of the description says, "Ultimate sound performance for DVD, games and music!" and "... Gamers will also be amazed when seeing the range of compatibility." That doesn’t sound like a pro audio sound card to me. You already have a game card. Why not get something better? From what I can read, the Terratec DMX6 doesn’t even have XLR or balanced TRS inputs, or phantom power. I’m not sure how much better this is than your current Audigy card.

Now if all you do is remix other loops and don’t record your own, then this might be fine. But if you do any recording, do yourself a favor and get a pro soundcard with XLR inputs, phantom power, headphone monitoring, etc. Anything from M-Audio, Echo, etc. The M-Audio Firewire Solo is a nice solution for around the same price. It’s like half of a FW 410 (without the MIDI).

~jr

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/7/2005 8:17:21 AM

Thanks for the advice JR.

I was thinking of getting a pre-amp such as Behringer Mic 200 to go with the terratec s/card (as this would supply phantom power). You still reckon this is a poor overall solution?
I like the look of the M-Audio Firewire Solo, but how would I use midi with this?
For about £150 I could get the Edirol UA25 or Tascam US-122, which seem to have both phantom, audio & midi - any thoughts on this?
Also, I was recently told in a music shop that for any 'serious' vocal recording (typical salesperson speak!!) I would need to buy a separate compressor unit & a mixer. Is this true, or are they just on commission?!?!

Sorry for all the questions!

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/7/2005 9:48:26 AM

The FireWire Solo doesn't have MIDI, so you'd have to find some other way to get MIDI I/O.

The TASCAM US-122 uses USB 1.1, so be aware that you may not be able to monitor while playing back; USB 1.1 just can't handle the bandwidth of digital audio. I can't apparently see what kind of USB the Edirol uses. (I hate it when they're not as forthcoming about specs.)

The Gina3G has everything you're looking for, but it's not exactly cheap at about $349 USD street (which is about 190 British Pounds).

Obviously, you'd have to sink some cash if you're looking to mimic a studio atmosphere to record vocals, and not just for compression and mixing but also for environment and a quality mic.

However, that doesn't mean you can't get by without them. You could do some editing after the fact. (Sound Forge, for example, has its Wave Hammer tool.)

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/7/2005 3:02:39 PM

i've been using a terratec ewx 24/96 for the past 2 years or so and i've had no problems. with the quality of most soundcards today , having phantom power, a headphone amp, XLRs, do not exactly make a card sound "pro", but a clean sound, stable drivers, and a good signal chain going into it does.

i use a separate mixer for monitoring, a tube mic-pre and tube compressor, going into my terratec card. i have the option of getting a full tube sound or a clean solid state sound. setting levels and monitoring is easy because mixer is right in front of me and you can hear a pin drop because all my computers are wired into the next room.

i've owned 4 or 5 different soundcards over the years from ESI, edirol, yamaha, digidesign and the terratec has been the most stable system i've ever had. i'm only doing vocals and occasional guitar or percussion so this setup works perfectly for me. i think until you get up to the $700+ range the only difference in soundcards are the bells and whistles that make it more self contained or portable. on the lower end, with the 2-channel 24bit/192khz cards coming out and of course the emu cards the quality is getting even better, but if the drivers aren't stable then it makes no difference really. not to mention, if you're using a crappy mic and if the acoustics of the room are horrible then none of this matters anyways.

at my local guitar center this past holiday weekend they had open-box (where someone bought it and cracked the software seal) m-boxes for $279. i thought it might be cool to just plug in one usb cord and have everything right there, but you know, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". i'd rather save my money, wait till i can record drums and a full band properly, plus mix in at least 5.1 surround to upgrade. that's going to be a while.

the 1212m is probably a better sounding card because it's newer and has better specs but i keep hearing too many bad things about the drivers. as i said before, if the rest of your recording channel and room acoustics are shite you probably won't notice the difference anyways.

just some things to think about....

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/8/2005 4:25:49 AM

Thanks for the replies guys - very helpful! I have a slight problem with the Firewire solutions as I don't have a firwire port on my music PC, but I believe you can get one installed for fairly cheap.

A couple of other questions:

I currently use my Boss BR8 as a 'mic pre-amp' before my 16-bit Creative Audigy for recording vocals - it has a few compressor settings which sound ok to me. I was wondering whether I could continue to use the BR8 as a mic pre? - Problem is, I think the BR8 is a 16-bit unit, so would this make it pointless upgrading to 24-bit soundcard?

Also, if I have current ongoing Acid projects that have been recorded in 16 bit with the Audigy, will there be a problem converting these projects to 24 bit & adding further audio recording to these projects with my new 24-bit setup?

Thanks again, ye fountains of knowledge!!

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/8/2005 6:49:48 AM

> I was thinking of getting a pre-amp such as Behringer Mic 200 to go with the terratec s/card (as this would supply phantom power).

My reply was based on your price point. Adding an external mixer would, of course, be very beneficial. An external mic preamp allows you to grow and buy better ones as your needs change. I was just trying to find an all-in-one solution that was within your price range.

> You still reckon this is a poor overall solution?

I was just going by the marketing information that they provided. It concentrated on Gaming features and didn’t mention professional recording at all. I can only go by how they marketed their hardware. It focused on EAX and DVD playback and not focused on pro recording. I could be wrong.

> I like the look of the M-Audio Firewire Solo, but how would I use midi with this?

You could get an M-Audio Midisport 2x2 for MIDI. They are cheap and use USB (I use one on my laptop). I use an M-Audio Firewire 410 which has both audio and MIDI. Don’t worry about not having a firewire card, you can pick one up for ~$30USD. Since I record solo, the two mic XLR inputs on the FW410 are enough for me and the headphones allow me to monitor my recordings live.

> For about £150 I could get the Edirol UA25 or Tascam US-122, which seem to have both phantom, audio & midi - any thoughts on this?

As Iacobus suggested, avoid a USB audio solution if you can. They are really for small solo projects and have limited bandwidth. My recommendation is to get a PCI solution first, firewire solution second, and USB solution last.

> Also, I was recently told in a music shop that for any 'serious' vocal recording (typical salesperson speak!!) I would need to buy a separate compressor unit & a mixer. Is this true, or are they just on commission?!?!

Obviously having an entire recording studio full of hardware is nice. Unfortunately for their commission, you can do most/all of this with just a PC these days. ;-)

> coolout wrote: having phantom power, a headphone amp, XLRs, do not exactly make a card sound "pro", but a clean sound, stable drivers, and a good signal chain going into it does.

Coolout, I couldn’t agree more. Cards like the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 and Mia-MIDI are pro cards that have none of these things (i.e., XLR, phantom, etc.). I was just commenting on what to “look for” in an all-in-one pro solution because I peeked at Lostdog’s previous posts and saw he was also using a condenser mic. That’s why I didn’t recommend these other cards. You need to have an external mixer or mic preamp to use them. Again, I was working within the price given. Your comment about drivers should not be taken lightly. The best hardware in the world is just an expensive “door stop” if the drivers are unstable.

Lostdog, if you are willing to buy a mixer, then by all means look at the M-Audio Audiophile 2496 ($99USD) or Mia-MIDI ($199USD) cards too. Even the M-Audio Delta Series. If you have the money, the Echo Layla or Gina Series are great too but you did want a “tight budget” solution which is why I didn’t recommend these.

Just as a reference: I thought my Audigy 2 Platinum had great sound... until I got the M-Audio Firewire 410. You won’t know what you’re missing until you hear it. :)

> Problem is, I think the BR8 is a 16-bit unit, so would this make it pointless upgrading to 24-bit soundcard?

I believe the BR8’s internal processing is 24 bit.

> Also, if I have current ongoing Acid projects that have been recorded in 16 bit with the Audigy, will there be a problem converting these projects to 24 bit & adding further audio recording to these projects with my new 24-bit setup?

No, ACID will take care of this. Almost every ACID loop in the world is 16bit/44.1Khz. The beauty of Sony products is that they allow you to mix media and they always “do the right thing”.

~jr

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/9/2005 7:11:28 AM

Thanks again JR & friends! (JR - I think that cyber drink is well overdue now....)

JR - you mention that Sony products can cope with mixing 16 & 24 bit etc within the same project - I presume this is the case with Acid 4.0 (which I'm currently using), and not just an Acid 5 property?

I reckon my best bet is to get a good quality (but relatively basic) PCI soundcard with midi capability, then buy a small mixer (which I could use for live & other applications in future). Would you agree this would be enough? I wouldn't need a mic pre-amp as well? Or would the pre-amp add quality to the recorded sound? A bit confused whether the mixer & pre-amp are interchangable for my purposes....

JR, your comment about the M-Audio Firewire 410 ("You won’t know what you’re missing until you hear it") - did you mean specifically the 410, or do you mean the general upgrading to 24 bit is a huge jump in quality?

Cheers

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/9/2005 2:23:23 PM

ACID 4.0 will mix bitrates just fine. As for a preamp, mixers usually have them built in so a good PCI card and a mixer is all you need (with good speakers, of course). As for the comment "You won’t know what you’re missing until you hear it" I was specifically talking about a better sound card like the FW410 and not bitrate in general. Remember, I had an Audigy 2 Premium which was 24 bit. I could hear the difference when I got the FW410. It’s just a much better sound card (and it better be at 3 times the price!)

~jr

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/10/2005 5:57:10 AM

Thanks for that JR.

Ok - so here's what I'm thinking for my 'upgrade to 24 bit for recording vocals, guitars & midi without breaking the bank package'. I'm gonna get a me:

1.A new Samson condenser mic - either the C01 or C03 for (£40-£60) recording vocals & acoustic guitars (will also have the option of my existing AKG c1000s) > going into >

>A Behringer Tube Ultragain Mic200 pre amp (£40), providing phantom power & a few effects (I hear this is good for putting bass & guitars through for extra warmth, as well as for vocals) > output to >

> the Audiophile 2496 (£60).

That's everything for about £150, including a new condenser mic!!

One query - the Behringer pre amp has jack & XLR outputs - can anyone explain which output I should use & which inputs on the Audiophile 2496 - how this would link up to the inputs to maximise quality?

Please tell me if I'm being an idiot with this set up or if you've got any recommendations for a different setup in the same price braket.

Thanks all.

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: drbam

Date:6/10/2005 6:15:12 AM

"One query - the Behringer pre amp has jack & XLR outputs - can anyone explain which output I should use & which inputs on the Audiophile 2496 - how this would link up to the inputs to maximise quality?"

You actually have only one option: since the soundcard only has 1/4" analog I/O you obviously will have to use these. Also I believe the analog I/O on this card is unbalanced so keep your cable runs as short as possible. This is the only shortcoming of this card although most people don't find it to be a problem.

drbam

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/10/2005 6:54:03 AM

Thanks Drbam
I've just had a look at the specs for the Audiophile 2496 - I can only see RCA jack inputs for analogue (maybe the spec I've found is wrong?). Also the Behringer mic pre amp only has has single lead outputs, so I guess to use the RCA inputs on the soundcard I would need a short lead '1/4 inch jack to RCA phono' lead?
Alternatively, I could go for the Terratec DMX6 Fire soundcard, and get a variety of inputs.
Actually, just noticed that the 2496 doesn't seem to have a headphone output! Is this correct?
LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: drbam

Date:6/10/2005 8:26:08 AM

You are correct. You need an RCA to 1/4" connectors for the 2496. No the card does not have a headphone output. So it appears you may need a different card. I don't know if the Terratec works well with Sony apps so I'd certainly suggest doing some in depth investigation about this prior to purchasing it.

drbam

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/11/2005 10:23:34 AM

Just a little note: The Gina3G I mentioned before uses a PCI interface. (It uses a breakout box that connects to a PCI card.)

Since it has practically everything, including a mic preamp, you'll only need a mic. It'll cost you more but then again you won't have to do any finagling just to get it all to work properly.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: drbam

Date:6/11/2005 10:52:42 AM

"Since it [Gina 3G] has practically everything, including a mic preamp, you'll only need a mic. It'll cost you more but then again you won't have to do any finagling just to get it all to work properly."

I think mD makes a very good point here. Most importantly I think, is that Echo's cards have been extremely reliable with Sony apps.

drbam

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/24/2005 2:57:59 AM

Hi all. Well, I went for the terratec DMX6 Fire card. Having a few teething problems - clicks are happening when I record my guitar. No clicks can be heard during recording, but on playback it's pretty constant - less when the signal's low, but when I play louder the clicking seems to get worse. Help!! I've tried using the mic/line in & the digital in (out of my Boss BR8), and I'm getting exactly the same results.

I've tried changing the buffer size between 192 to 1024, but no difference. I've checked the IRQs & none are shared.

I left my old Audigy card in it's slot. Would this have any effect?

Any suggestions more than welcome!!

Thanks

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/24/2005 7:19:54 AM

Hi Coolout - looking back at the thread, you've said you're using the DMX6 Fire (can't find anyone else who's using it with Acid!) - have you ever had any problems like this? Have you had success using Acid version 4 with the DMX6 Fire?
Thanks
LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/24/2005 2:19:28 PM

i don't have the dmx. i have the terratec ewx 24/96 which is an older, more basic card than the dmx, but the drivers and control panel are the same i believe.

which driver are you using and what's your latency at?

i'm using acid 5 w/ asio now but i remember using acid 4 with just the sound mapper driver.

of course you should make sure you're using the latest drivers from terratec.

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/25/2005 5:13:18 AM

Hi Coolout - thanks for the reply.

I've installed what I think is the latest driver for the DMX6 (downloaded from Terratec website) Driver 5.40.3 130 dated 11/8/03.

In the DMX6 control panel it says DMA buffer size 10 msec, ASIO buffer size 1024, 'which will give latencies of 23.2msec@44.1khz'.

Within Acid preferences it says Audio Device Type 'ASIO for DMX6 Fire 24/96', Sonic Foundry ASIO Driver version 1.0 (build 329). User recording latency offset is 10ms (Note: I haven't got the box ticked for 'Automatically detect & offset for hardware settings' - should this be ticked?)

Should I try using the soundmapper driver? I thought ASIO was supposed to be better?

Thanks for your help.

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/25/2005 11:18:01 AM

"(Note: I haven't got the box ticked for 'Automatically detect & offset for hardware settings' - should this be ticked?)"

...YES


"Should I try using the soundmapper driver? I thought ASIO was supposed to be better?"


...it depends...with ASIO you can usually get lower lantencies but of course with lower latency your CPU gets strained more which usually leads to "snap, crackle, pop" although you usually would hear it on playback first. you must be barely going over the line of usage.

try increasing your ASIO lantency and/or switching to soundmapper.

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/27/2005 3:35:51 PM

Thanks for the response Coolout. I've now ticked the 'Auto detect....' box. When I chose this, I don't get to set the latency offset manually in Acid - is this right?

It seems the only way to change the ASIO latency settings (which is within the DMX6 settings box rather than within Acid, right?) is by changing the ASIO buffer size in DMX settings. I previously had it at 1024. I've increased it to 2048 to increase the latency, but I'm still getting exactly the same clicking through line and digital playback.

Also, when I switch the audio device type to Soundmapper instead of DMX6 ASIO, I don't seem to get any recording signal in Acid.

Sorry to be such a dumbass-techno-idiot. I just love recording music, and this upgrading has brought me to a complete standstill! Maybe I should get an old reel-to-reel....

Cheers

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/29/2005 4:16:04 AM

Hi JR

Well, you may have read my previous post on this thread. Big problems that won't go away with my new Terratec card. Pending any miraculous recovery, I'm coming back to you with tail between legs....thinking of going for the more expensive option after all - the MAudio FW410 which you recommended looks good - 2 headphone outs & lots of inputs with phantom power & 'tried & tested by an Acid user' is starting to look like it's well worth the extra investment!! I can't cope with not recording any longer!

Can you give me a bit of advice - I've currently got my old 16-bit Audigy card, which has a firewire port. Do you think I could just plug the FW410 into this (without the need to install a new Firewire port)?

Out of interest, if I wanted to return the dodgy Terratec, do shops tend to reimburse you if you wanna exchange it for something more expensive? Or once you've opened & installed the card, does the that invalidate any warranties?

Thanks

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/29/2005 6:40:45 AM

You shouldn’t be having all those problems with the Terratec card. I wonder if having the Audigy card still in the PC could have something to do with it. It is certainly worth a try to remove it and see if the clicking goes away. Also be sure to disable any motherboard sound you may have in the BIOS. Finally, go to Control Panel > Sound and Audio Devices > Sounds and select No Sounds as your Sound scheme. The last thing you want is 44.1K 16-bit windows sounds playing. That will cause your sound card to constantly switch back and forth between 44.1/16 and 48/24. If after all these things it still clicks, contact Terratec support. Fundamentally the card should work without clicks and pops.

I would remove the Audigy card. I know its tempting to just use it for its firewire port, but firewire cards are cheap and having the extra audio card isn’t worth the trouble of it possibly getting in the way. Get a firewire card that uses the Texas Instruments chipset. They seem to be more reliable.

I also would recommend you look at the Echo Gina 3G or Layla 3G before going with a firewire solution. I have had a few problems with my firewire devices not working together. Until recently, my ADS Pyro A/V Link video capture device would cause the FW410 to go off line. This was actually a problem with the ADS device and an EPROM upgrade fixed it, but it was frustrating. You also won’t need a firewire card with the Echo solutions because they are PCI. If you don’t need portability, try a PCI solution first. They will be the most stable and trouble free.

If you want to return the Terratec card you shouldn’t have a problem since you are purchasing something else. As long as you return it in the original packing. If they give you any trouble, tell them the card doesn’t work and Terratec couldn’t get it to work (providing you called them) As far as you are concerned, the card is defective and doesn’t work in your PC. That should be reason enough for a return. Good Luck.

~jr

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:6/30/2005 3:33:19 AM

Hi JR. Thanks for your help.

I've now removed the Audigy & uninstalled Audigy software - although every time I open up Acid a window comes up telling me that no Creative products are available for ASIO drivers (?!).

I've also ensured 'No Sounds' is selected in control panel. I wasn't quite sure how to disable Motherboard sound in BIOS (I pressed F2 during startup, but couldn't see anything about motherboard sound).

I've tried recording again at 16bit/44.1K, 24 bit/44.1K & 24 bit/48K (should I be defaulting to 24bit/48K in Acid?) but I'm still getting this clicking on playback of the recorded track (clicking is not audible during recording though).

Am now completely lost & knackered. Maybe tonight I'll try taking the card back out & putting it in again & uninstalling & reinstalling the DMX6 software. I reckon if it doesn't work after that I'm either gonna top myself or go buy me an Echo card....that said, I'm going to see a great US band called Rilo Kiley tonight in a tiny venue - maybe that will inspire me to keep trying with the Terratec!!!!

Thanks all.

LD

Subject:RE: EMU 1212m vs Terratec DMX6Fire

Reply by: Lostdog

Date:7/2/2005 4:04:39 AM

I've now uninstalled the Terratec DMX6 & moved the card up a few slots, changed a coupla wires, linked it all in & reinstalled. Still getting the clicks when I play back recorded guitar! However, I've now tried recording vocals, through my new Samson C01 & Behringer M200 and it that seems to be ok. This seems really strange to me.

I'm getting no clicking DURING the guitar recording, but on playback of guitar recordings I'm getting the clicks. I'm using a Pod XTlive with line out directly into the DMX6. I presume it can't be anything to do with the leads or output of the Line6, cos the signal sounds fine on the way in - just dodgy on playback. Maybe the signal is too much from the Line6? (although I've checked within the Acid & DMX6 mixers, and neither are clipping & I've got the DMX6 line-in volume at zero, as recommended in the Line6 manual).

Any ideas anyone? - recording some vocals has given me a glimmer of hope for the Terratec....

Thanks

LD