Subject:Things are going fast...

Posted by: Zacchino

Date:6/1/2005 2:00:53 PM

...Ableton has gone v5 now. They just really couldn't help catching up Acid version release I guess ^^.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: merlyn

Date:6/1/2005 2:38:12 PM

They are really getting busy over there. If it wasn't for their interface, I'd be with those guys in a second. If there is one thing that Sonic Foundry got right, it was the interface because it's so easy to use and intuitive. It's so good, I'm hooked. Anything else that I look at drives me insane.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: randygo

Date:6/1/2005 3:17:00 PM

Wow, that feature set is pretty impressive. They have added the most request features like track freeze, PDC, right-click menus, etc.

I've had my eye on Live for a while and it is looking pretty tempting. They are definitely improving the DAW multitracker aspect (unlike Acid). If they can reach parity with Vegas's multitrack capabilities and ease-of-use I will definitely take a more serious look at it.

Randy

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:6/1/2005 4:34:43 PM

Yep it's getting DAWer and DAWer. But I'm not found of the interface at all. Very restrictive, cold, and somewhat rigid feeling interface.

It does look nice, but at the first sight only ^^.

I don't wait apps to become what I need from them (especially with Acid). That's my point of view. It's a good software for manipulating loops in live, but again, midi, and audio editing, and windowing, are still having a very difficult time, and remain very basic. That's why for me, Ableton's software is only a (Great) Live DAW. Nothing else.

Offline DAWs like Sonar, Cubase or Logic, learnt from its users over the years. Live grew up quickly, but burnt the steps of these little details that makes a producer's work more efficient.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/2/2005 10:31:10 AM

My thoughts:

As I predicted, Live is still apparently not a good fit for media creators. From what I could tell, you still cannot work with multimedia like you can SPD's apps. All I see are improvements from the audio angle.

Sure, if music is exclusively your bag, Live might work for you, but it seems users are forgetting that ACID is used not only for music.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:6/2/2005 3:56:37 PM

Well, Multimedia, and Home entertainement solutions, are on one side and DAW, are on another side of the market.

Both worlds are professional. But you can't make both of them happy with only one application (go tell a Develloper that he's doing the same job as an Administrator, you'll get the idea).

At least Live chose its target.

Now I think it's now the time for Acid to choose his goal.
It can't go further like this anymore, trying to fulfill everyone's needs.


You know what ? I'm so disappointed. I'm talking about feelings here, nothing to have with requests, or issues.

I just know that something is going wrong in the headquarters. I'm not blaming anybody. I just imagine it throught every event, every updates, every posts I've seen.

Something is going wrong, and this can be directly felt on the end-user product.

My guess is that SPD is messing up its priorities.
The priority for Acid, is a bet. The bet of implementing profissional tools and functions without breaking the incredibly intuitive workflow, and making all this work seemlessly without any glitches.

They know this. We don't have to tell them how to improve their product. And they're almost there.

If I were running their business, I'll ask for a Acid core complete rebuild to make it lighter and more robust in the process , redesign a little the UI to make it look fresher, implement every single new functions of today's DAW, and invest every single dollars, including my wife on the marketing. I'd also change the app name, and call it something like Sony Track Forge.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:6/2/2005 4:07:27 PM

To Zacchino: hope they don't employ you on the Sony team :)

I don't want to pay for an upgrade that just reworks the GUI layout and changes the name. Acid is fine.

I agree that they should try to avoid destroying what they have by adding too many features. If it ain't broke (and if it still sells!), then don't fix it.

I don't see Live as a direct competitor. I tried the Live demo a few times, was impressed, but didn't see enough differences to change horses. If I was using it live I might change my mind, but it will be a long time before I want to perform with a laptop.

The serious competitor for Acid is not Live, it is Garage Band. My guess is that Acid added the media manager to match one of Apple's touted features. I just hope that Sony keeps developing Acid Pro as a truly professional application, and doesn't follow Apple into "music for the masses" territory.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:6/2/2005 4:50:09 PM

>hope they don't employ you on the Sony team
Well, I'm sure they won't after reading this last comment, especially the devellopers.

>but it will be a long time before I want to perform with a laptop
I know what you mean. Looking at someone performing behind a laptop is not rock and roll at all.

And I didn't say that Live was a competitor. It's far from being one in fact, it's more like another weapon for a producer, than a main sequencer. But its evolution is to be taken seriously by all other DAWs on the market in my point of view. In terms of flexibility, and creativity.

>nd doesn't follow Apple into "music for the masses" territory
That's what I was trying to say.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: coolout

Date:6/4/2005 2:14:14 AM

as everyone here probably knows i'm not a fan of live at all.

i've never seen the use of it really.

everytime a new version comes out (since 1.0) i download the demo and get frustrated by the GUI and huge ommisions.

i'll admit they're getting closer and are working hard, but dang...can you believe they JUST added mp3 support and auto tempo calculation.

this is stuff acid has been able to do since day one.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/4/2005 11:01:51 AM

If I were running their business, I'll ask for a Acid core complete rebuild to make it lighter and more robust in the process , redesign a little the UI to make it look fresher, implement every single new functions of today's DAW, and invest every single dollars, including my wife on the marketing. I'd also change the app name, and call it something like Sony Track Forge.

Mmm...now, see, this is where I typically clash with users. Part of the appeal with SPD's apps is that each concentrates on a specific task without unnecessarily complicating the overall paradigm of each.

Can you imagine having the entire toolset that's available in Sound Forge in ACID Pro? I honestly can't.

I've mentioned before how anything new that's introduced into the app has to fit within the existing paradigm/workflow, not change it. You risk alienating existing users otherwise.

People can say I'm being resistant to change until they're blue in the face all they want, but I'm just being practical, not revolutionary to the point of suicide.

ACID's paradigm has always been media looping from day one. Many of its features, such as its ability to pull in a video track for scoring, have always been there since the beginning.

I'll tell you one thing: If SPD dumped all its multimedia features just to compete with Live, I'd be highly pi$$ed. And that's coming from a musician. I wouldn't be able to collaborate with other media creators anymore. (How am I supposed to help score a video if I can't add such a track to my project?)

That's why I opined that Live is still not the best fit for media creators. I didn't see Ableton at NAB (National Association of Broadcasters). There's a reason for that.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/4/2005 11:57:53 AM

> The serious competitor for Acid is not Live, it is Garage Band

I agree it’s not Live. I’ve played with the version of Live that came with my M-Audio Firewire 410 (Live 4 M-Audio Edition) and it has some nice concepts but it doesn’t work like I do so it’s not the tool for me.

I do not agree that Garage Band is “competition” for ACID. While I realize that some small percentage of people would actually buy a new computer for a single software package, I am still a firm believer that you are either a PC person or Mac person and if you’re a PC person, it doesn’t matter what a Mac can do, you ain’t buying one.

Yes, ACID and Garage Band share the same feature/functions/etc., but you can add all of my most requested features for ACID 6 to Garage Band and I’m still not going to buy some underpowered, price inflated, hardware just to run it. (tongue planted firmly in cheak) ;-)

(Personally I see no need for PC or Mac. All computers should just run Linux and be done with it. It’s just a tool, standardize it, and get on with your work)

~jr

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: rictheobscene

Date:6/4/2005 3:02:55 PM

Ableton Live 4 was a huge step for that product from version 3. Ableton Live 5 promises to be another amazing release. They are really upping the ante. This is good because it forces Steinberg to up the ante for Cubase SX. Since I use both products, I win all the way around.

What amazes me about Ableton is how stable their X.0 releaeses are. Usually the first release of a new full version is so buggy that a hotfix is usually quick to follow. Obviously Ableton's inaugural releases aren't perfect, but they are usable.

Ric

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:6/4/2005 6:49:19 PM

Acid Pro 5.0 was stable on my machine, for almost all parts of its functions.

I think Sony just get it right too nowdays.

Okay, I've gone throught some bad experiences these last 2 months but this is because I'm exhausting Acid with my unlogical way of mixing songs. I can't blame Acid 100% for this ^^.

Anyway, the most rock solid audio sequencer I know so far is still Zynewave Podium. But it doesn't have Rewire and some other extras yet.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: rictheobscene

Date:6/13/2005 10:37:35 AM

If money is no object, then check out Saw Studio.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Studio_de_Lara

Date:6/14/2005 11:23:54 AM

Saw Studio is an awesome app. However, it is more like a Nuendo or Protools (although without Rewire). I use strictly for mixing. Incredible mix buss.
Live 4.1 is another incredible app. IMHO, Live is ACID's main competitor. When version 5 comes out, ACID is going to have more serious work to do to catch up.
Regards,
Rich

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/14/2005 11:41:24 AM

Nah, Live is for musicians exclusively. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:6/14/2005 7:40:21 PM

"Nah, Live is for musicians exclusively. It's like comparing apples and oranges."

Ouch! I AM a musician exclusively, but I still prefer Acid. I just find it simpler - maybe that's because I have used it for a long time.

I would be worried if the only reason Sony could maintain a user market for Acid was because of its multimedia facilities - you are effectively saying that Live! has won the war. I don't think that is the case yet, but it may be why some (like ric) have this opinion? Anyway, ric is right - Sony have to keep developing Acid if they want to maintain their market.

Personally, I think Sony should forget about Live! and continue to develop Acid as the best way of producing loop-based music IN THE STUDIO rather than on stage. This is where it excels.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: JamesHE

Date:6/15/2005 1:21:11 AM

Nah, Live is for musicians exclusively. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Iacobus


So, wait. If I'm a musician I shouldn't be using Aicd?

Now I'm convinced. I'm dropping Acid!

lol.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Studio_de_Lara

Date:6/15/2005 5:10:12 AM

" Nah, Live is for musicians exclusively. It's like comparing apples and oranges."
Apples and oranges eh?

Loop handling / warping
VST effects and Instruments
Automation
Midi Recording
Midi Effects
Audio Recording
Rewire
Detailed loop editing / construction (pitch, tempo etc).
Buss to Buss (Live it's track to track/buss) routing
Live input monitoring (oops, ONLY LIVE).
Seems pretty similar to me.
Regards,
Rich

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:6/15/2005 8:32:03 AM

I believe what Iacobus was trying to say is that Live seems to be focused on musicians only. You wouldn’t use Live for scoring music for video since it doesn’t have a video track for sync or both time base and tempo based markers which are needed for video scoring work. You wouldn’t use Live for mixing multimedia because its media options are limited to primarily wave and MIDI which is musician oriented. So Live is focusing on musicians needs and has a different workflow from other DAW apps, which means its only for musicians who like working that way. (I don’t like the Live workflow which is why I use ACID)

So I don’t believe he was inferring that musicians shouldn’t use ACID. He was saying that both musicians and every one else can use ACID but Live is more targeted to JUST musicians with its features.

~jr

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Illogical

Date:6/15/2005 8:41:45 AM

so not apples and oranges then?

maybe apples and apple juice?

either way, ignoring the competition (or claiming they're not competition) won't make them go away, and certainly does nothing to improve Acid.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:6/15/2005 10:30:13 AM

I don't think we should be dropping acid around here!

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:6/15/2005 2:42:53 PM

When Ableton will implement a Video Track with some video syncing features, what else will you say about Live not being a direct competitor of Acid ?

Yeay their workflow are different. Hopefully different, as each softwares has its own logic.

Yes, Acid is different. It doesn't have all these DAW-like features that Live has.

Just drop the multimedia / video / website abilities of acid. Acids needs to catch up really quickly in far more important grounds as Midi, Audio and Mix.

Except if you want Acid to become N°1 Home Multimedia Maker solution. Then who's left ? The Djs, Musicians and Producers ? They'll just look for something less fishy.

Subject:RE: Things are going fast...

Reply by: Illogical

Date:6/15/2005 4:09:41 PM

"I don't think we should be dropping acid around here!"

What's that on about, brutha?

Don't make me get you banned, lol.