Subject:Enough is enough

Posted by: Phil Sayer

Date:4/8/2005 6:26:29 AM

I am livid. Too many bugs for a commercial release, even at a discounted upgrade price. For supposedly professional software, this is lamentable:

1. Glitches on recording.
2. Slow GUI.
3. Useless and irritating "No ASIO" splash screen on every start-up.
4. Wave Hammer refuses to work after older version of SF uninstalled unless SF 8.0 not only re-installed, but all Sony folders manually deleted.
5. "Find" tool doesn't work.
6. And all the many other problems reported by other users, several of which I have had too.

I admire the resilience, knowledge and loyalty of Rednroll and others - many times you guys have helped me with problems over the last few years, and I'm truly grateful to you - my anger is purely with Sony. I actually earn my living with this software - it should damn well work, out of the box, not months down the line after patches and fixes.

This software isn't fit even for beta release; when I buy something, I expect it to be right - what, pray, exempts software from that expectation? So many of the reported problems, including mine, are concerning everyday usage of the program, not some rarely-used, exotic routine. Sony have done themselves immense damage with this release. The SF 7.0 release was traumatic enough, but this is worse still, and is below the acceptable standard for ANY company to release, let alone a major, supposedly reputable, multinational.

Please don't even bother to flame me, or to defend Sony; I've read all the loyalty postings, and I'm unimpressed. Any other product would have been thrown back at the vendor long ago, but from here in the UK, it's simply not worth the trouble and cost of trying to pursue a refund since transatlantic calls are a tad expensive, and my time is better spent earning back the money I've wasted. After several loyal years as a user, I'm looking to switch as soon as possible. This is disgraceful and indefensible, so let's not even bother trying to defend it further. I am entitled to this view point, and I only hope somebody at Sony takes notice. You've managed to ruin a darned good product from a company that you probably bought for next-to-nothing.

This reeks of cash-cow management - "let's release another version with some bells and whistles (most of which don't work) so we can charge these idiots another wad of money - who cares that they're annoyed and feel ripped-off?"

Come back Sonic Foundry - all is forgiven. At least things actually WORKED... and having written all that, I feel a little better. If anyone at Sony wishes to reimburse my credit card, go right ahead - it'll help offset the cost of the over-priced Audition software that I now have to buy... I am sadder but wiser, and $99 poorer, too.

Thanks again for all the help over the years, good people, but there really is no excuse for this debacle.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: captn_spalding

Date:4/8/2005 7:35:06 AM

I guess my sugestion is do what we do - don't even think about using a new release of software in a production environment for several months. I will buy 8.0 on April 14th (to save a few bucks) and tinker with it in my spare time. Why jepordise your livelyhood for $99! I know my clients don't care what version of software (or even what software!) I'm using.

..spalding

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Sonic

Date:4/8/2005 8:41:25 AM

I'm truly sorry you are so disappointed and your decision hasn't fallen on deaf ears.

I agree with you. This release is not up to prior standards (though I don't recall what was so disastrous about 7.0).

The issues you mentioned have already been fixed or will be further investigated.

While you shouldn't have to wait for updates to get a reliable product. I can only hope you reconsider in a month or so given Sony/SoFo's track record of acknowledging bugs and releasing regular patches.

J.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Vegas - The Big Gamble

Date:4/8/2005 9:53:25 AM

I can hardly believe the irony Phil... despite never having spoken to you or met you personally I do remember us both defending SF in a voiceover forum where everyone was raving about Cool Edit Pro. There's no question - we were both big fans of Forge..

Yet I just came here to say exactly the same about SF8! Yes.. 7 was bad enough... I actually never removed SF4.5 because it's the *only* version I can feel sure will not die while I'm in the booth during a voice session.

Of course there are now plenty of other products we can use.. but if long-time fans/users have had enough, then those with less of a warm & fuzzy feeling about the old Sonic Foundry creation probably won't even bother to come here and say how bad this is... they'll be elsewhere getting on with a competing product.

Mine locks up when recording (normally after 1:42, but not always) and playing doesn't start instantly. It also glitches on recording without even showing gap markers afterwards - so do I have to listen to a whole session to make sure i don't sound like I have splicer's disease?? No.. I use something else.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: sirshambling

Date:4/8/2005 9:57:03 AM

Your frankness does you credit.

I'm pretty fed up (and poorer) as well but since I'm not a professional user - and because I've been a satisfied customer for many years - I'm prepared to give you a chance to make amends with the first patch/update. But if that doesn't solve my recording problems - and bring this release up to the standards of usability of SF7 - that will be it.

I think it says a lot that for a new version that got us all so excited you've manged to disappoint us all so thoroughly that we'll be pleased just to get back to the standard set by SF7...

John.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:4/8/2005 11:03:24 AM

Phil,

Well said. I too am a busy professional voiceover artist who needs the stability and workflow to work as advertised upon purchase.

I switched from being a solid Forge advocate about 3 years ago and I was really excited about the prospect of 8.0 but after about a week of trying to get things going - I gave up. I have clients to attend to and work to get done. As been said many a time - my client could care less about which editor I use...but I need one that can deliver under pressure.

I read the responses from the Sony folk with anticipation of something good to come from the next update...but how much damage has been done? The longer I continue to use my existing (and very solid!) editor...the easier it is to just pass on V8 no matter what comes out in the next update.

VP

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/8/2005 12:50:10 PM

I totally understand that you guys are pissed. But why are you using a initial release for serious work? Is SF7.0b working for you guys?
Unfortunately in the software industry there is NO bug free release. [NO excuse though]Only after 2 updates do I feel totally secure with said app. Don't even get me started on steinberg releases.

Ed.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: kryten

Date:4/8/2005 12:57:20 PM

I totally understand that there is no such thing as 100% bug-free software (how do you debug a debugger?). What I fail to see is why a new release would create problems in already established functions. New functions, maybe...but not functions that worked properly in the earlier versions.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: MyrnaLarson

Date:4/8/2005 3:27:03 PM

> glitches on recording without even showing gap markers afterwards - so do I have to listen to a whole session to make sure i don't sound like I have splicer's disease??

Yes, Tech Support just told me that SF8 has NO ABILITY to detect gaps -- feature removed. UNBELIEVABLE!

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:4/9/2005 2:57:22 AM

I've mixed feelings. I'm glad I had my say, and it's always good to know one isn't alone, but I am deeply disappointed, too.

Readers of this thread who don't use SF in the same way as voice artists will perhaps be mystified by why it's important NOT to have recording glitches and artefacts - here's the truth.

Like many other industries, we're under price pressure, and much of the bread and butter work is about working quickly and efficiently to make the work profitable. In practice, that means that I mark the script if I make a mistake, and drop in a marker, so I can go back and correct it later in the edit. That way, I don't have to listen to the whole recording over again.

For that reason, I use top quality software, and if a new version is made available, it should work - especially on pre-existing (as opposed to brand new) features, as a previous posting mentions.

You'll have read a post that says, quite rightly, that I have championed SF in a voiceover forum, on more than one occasion; maybe someone at Sony should be asking themselves how I'm going to feel when I report on SF 8.0. Although some ProTools and Audition/CoolEdit fans may allow themselves a quiet "told you so," I'd rather put up with that than have someone buy SF 8.0 assuming it to be as good as previous versions.

8.0a urgently required. And kindly e-mail us when it does, Mr Sony.

Finally, I am genuinely, deeply sorry that I've had to be so harsh, but a dear and trusted old friend just turned round and bit me.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: sirshambling

Date:4/10/2005 10:32:01 AM

I'm simply astonished!

I assumed it was a bug!

John.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: jaegersing

Date:4/10/2005 10:27:15 PM

"While you shouldn't have to wait for updates to get a reliable product. I can only hope you reconsider in a month or so given Sony/SoFo's track record of acknowledging bugs and releasing regular patches."

This used to be the case, but patches seem to be few and far between since Sony took over. For example, DVDA2 has had acknowledged bugs for ages with no sign of a patch, and now DVDA3 is about to be released. Is there any reason why should we expect better for SF?

Richard Hunter

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: evolver

Date:4/14/2005 5:13:18 AM

I share you're opinions on this one. In Soundforge 4.5 you can playback and edit while having your sequencer open and burning DVDs on the same machine. I tried the SF8 demo and got stuttering playback when selecting portions of audio with nothing else runnning in the background. So I checked in the XP Task Manager how much CPU it wants when selecting stuff. Here it goes up to 80% on my Athlon XP 3000+!
Just make the test...select some audio and keep the mouse button depressed and move left and right while watching your Task Manager. Another annoying issue was that many plugins froze SF when I chose them from the Favorites menu and pushed the OK button after doing some edits in them. It get's worse and worse with companies releasing beta software because they have a narrow timeline and to keep up with the competitors, but like in this case even Alphas? Come on Sony! Steinberg didn't announce a Wavelab 6, did they? So take your time and finish a product before you throw it on the market, please.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: ROBB007

Date:4/14/2005 10:06:47 AM

I agree !!!!!!!!!!!!@This has gone long enough most of us rely on these tools for our livelihoods we would not send you un stable computers to test your software so why Sony do you entice us with better now buy now schemes to gain trust in your product only to lose itwith this ####### I was very very happy with Sonic Foundry what a shame you don't have the same pride they had in there work........I hope you hear us Sony people?

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: cyberbeat

Date:4/14/2005 1:39:02 PM

I *completely* agree. To say that I'm disappointed with this release would be a huge understatement. It's unbeleivable how some of even the most basic features (like recording and the find feature) don't work correctly. I've used every version of SF since 4.5 and have never had as many problems as I do with V8. Why would Sony even let this release out the door with so many problems. I just don't understand it. Well, one thing I know for sure is that I have upgraded for the last time. I will no longer be upgrading to any future SF releases no matter what great new features they advertise or anything. I have had it! I no longer wish to do business with a company who thinks it's perfectly okay to release a product with so many bugs and then expect me to just wait and wait for them to try to get it right. This version should never have been released in the condition it was in. If there were a few minor bugs found after the initial release then I could understand. However, this is way out of control and it's not fair to the customers.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:4/21/2005 12:25:06 PM

"I will no longer be upgrading to any future SF releases no matter what great new features they advertise or anything. "

This is exactly what you should do. No one is ever forced to upgrade. What was working for you before today - will be working after today.

The ONLY way to get these software companies to wake up realize what a crap product means in the professional workspace is to speak with your wallet. Do NOT purchase anything until such time that the item works as advertised. If the product is not improved over time (Or in a timely manner) - then don't buy it EVER.

After a while...when the lost revenue starts to show the real picture....the company will either brain up and fix the product properly or it will disappear completely.

Here's hoping the SF 8.0 gets a very comprehensive service pack.

VP

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:4/21/2005 8:32:28 PM

For what it's worth, I haven't seen any of these issues.

However, if the ASIO splash screen is a problem (I have never seen it) and you don't have an ASIO-compatible soundcard (why not?) then why don't you just install ASIO4all and use its drivers? Maybe this will fix the glitches as well?

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: adowrx

Date:4/24/2005 6:12:11 PM

^

Bump for 1st post.

Hell in a handbasket.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:4/25/2005 3:52:00 PM

Reactions to first release notwithstanding, I can't understand how you can do a voice-over in SF ?!!!

geoff

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: mpd

Date:4/25/2005 4:34:15 PM

Many professional VO talent have small home studios where they record a script, edit as necessary, and then transmit (or FedEx) the recordings to the production company / station / edit house where they include the tracks in the final project.

Subject:Re: How do you do a VO in Sound Forge?

Reply by: PeterXI

Date:4/25/2005 10:35:05 PM

Plug your condensor mic into a preamp, run the premap Line out to something like a USB2 M-Audio transit, set the PC's input gain, press record and yack away. Flag bad takes with the M key then when you get to the end of the script, either cut all the bad takes or, if the script requires individual files, mark the good takes as Regions and do the Export Regions thing. Saves the bother of recording to DAT or Beta or DVCAM then capturing the stuff prior to editing.
I stopped recording to digital tape quite a while ago because editing is so time consuming.

Peter Burn

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:4/28/2005 5:20:10 AM

In reply to jumbuk's Q - I don't have an ASIO card in the PC in my office, which is where I edit, because I don't need one. It's a cheap old SB Live! card and does the job of driving the speakers well enough. It doesn't do any recording, only playback. (And as you probably know, the card isn't involved in anything other than the recording and playback - it has no part in editing or processing.)

We record on a different PC in the studio - that one does have an ASIO-compatible card. The splash screen didn't appear on that machine - and it wouldn't do now anyway, because I had to roll back to SF7.0 since 8.0 won't record properly. (see original post.) On that machine I'm not using ASIO, and I doubt it would fix all the listed problems, but it's worth a try - I'll give it a go on the spare PC, but I'm not prepared to jeopardise our main recording PC...! The point is that there should be a "don't show this again" box on the splash - it's just typical of the slapdash approach Sony have taken with this software.

I'm still running SF8.0 on the office machine, since it "only" edits and processes the files, and the batch converter is useful.

Geoff - I'm not sure what you mean by your question about how SF is used for v/o work. Mike to mixer to sound card to Sound Forge. Resultant file is either edited on same machine or saved via our network to the machine where the edit will be performed. Sometimes we send audio on CD, but often send mp3 via internet where that's good enough for the client's needs. Since broadband we've started to email or FTP wave files, too.

It's a good tool for v/o work - I'd go for ProTools but it's truly overkill for v/o work. We do very little mixing or production - mainly just recording our voices. I've had SF since 4.5 and prefer it to CoolEdit/Audition even though the latter has multi-track. I have CoolEdit, and may be upgrading it and dumping SF unless the patch comes very soon - and solves the issues. I can continue to use 7.0 (as I am doing on one machine) but I'm angry that I've paid out money for, in effect, nothing except trouble. I'm still annoyed that Sony haven't responded appropriately to this thread - the only option is "vote with my mouse" and buy someone else's product. Sod 'em, basically - that's clearly the attitude THEY have, so they can have the same back.

In case anyone should think I simply detest Sony, I would point out that I have plenty of other Sony kit around the house and the studio, including an £1800 VAIO laptop. So nee-ner. Whoever is responsible for ruining SF needs a slap.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Ben 

Date:4/28/2005 5:46:03 AM

Phil - I totally agree. But just so you know, 'Sonic' is a Sony employee (I don't know the reason for his lack of official ID) and is definitely one of the key programmers on Forge, and was back in the SoFo days.

Sonic did respond - third post in this thread. I found his modesty and honestly in that post very refreshing. Clearly we're not party to the wranglings and goings-on behind the scenes, but I have no doubt that these are probably as frustrating for the programmers as they are for us.

Ben

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: kbruff

Date:4/28/2005 6:34:11 AM

I would like to say that I have been comparing my work flow within the three programs...

(01) Adobe Audition
(02) Wavelab
(03) Sound Forge

Discounting GUI colors and buttons, it is so hard to choose which platform to stick with, because each tool has a superior advantage over each other.

Adobe Audition is not as fast as SF7 is, but the GUI is much faster in responding that SF8 is. It is a nice script generator (no programming skills required). The multi-track layout and effects panel is neatly organized. The Wave editing ability is cool, basically click on a sample and drag it to a new position, very handy for detailed pop/click treatment. Integrated CD / with Text layout tool.

Weak points: pluggin automation, i.e. no control of Izotope with respect to a time domain change in a parameter.

It is well known that Wavelab is a very strong tool...but the weak point from what I can tell is, the organization of the montage. I just think it should open up as another application, it is way to cluttered. The weak point is that script generation seams to be complicated than it needs to be. Further previewing how a cd would work is also annoying, since it does not have buttons that favor those on a typically CD player.

Negating SF8, until it works correctly. I would say SF7 is still my first pick tool, why it is quick, has some very good effects which are included. Has also very fast updating for pluggins and effects. Easy to convert formats (bit depth, mono-stereo), without doing a save, as in Audition and Wavelab and more.

Hopefully patch comes soon, but these tools are tempting platforms.

-
Kevin

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/28/2005 7:04:54 AM

Phil:

>>3. Useless and irritating "No ASIO" splash screen on every start-up.

>>The point is that there should be a "don't show this again" box on the splash - it's just typical of the slapdash approach Sony have taken with this software.<<

This is displayed by the driver/hardware and we have no control over this - wish we did. Can you provide the exact text of the dialog. I may be able provide a work around.

Peter

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Sonic

Date:4/28/2005 7:19:09 AM

Phil,

Do your recording problems in 8.0 improve if you increase the "Playback buffering (seconds)" in Options->Prefs->Audio?

Just a temporary solution, but it should help.

J.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:4/28/2005 9:54:47 PM

Re the 'voice-over' how-why question - would Vegas not be way better if video or audio. Otherwise how is the v/o synchronised to the other content ?

geoff

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:4/29/2005 4:20:41 AM

Geoff,

As a VO pro myself, I always use Wavelab (until SF gets it's collective act together) to "voice" all material standalone. This way you can tweak and edit the voicetracks on their own.

Of course - my scripts all have timing elements notated so I know how long a particular clip is supposed to be with regards to the rest of the project (like a multimedia presentation or video)

As far as sync is concerned....that's the beauty of tools like Vegas, Nuendo etc etc....these allow you to import your finished voice elements on separate tracks and move them into position with the rest of the content...this could also lead to processes like time stretching (within reason) and other techniques to get audio and video elements in correct sync.

Cheers!

VP

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:5/7/2005 12:25:40 AM

Sorry, chums, I've been away for a few days - here come some answers... Geoff first.

The term "voice over" is perhaps misleading - the US equivalent "voice talent" is more accurate, but Brit modesty prevents... :o)

I think you are justifiably assuming that the "over" part of the job title implies (as it originally did) that the voice is being put over pictures. These days the term is used for anyone recording their voice, (normally for money!) for example for radio ads.

Just occasionally we're asked to replace a soundtrack with a revised voice, perhaps an updated script, and we do that here by simply playing back the original into our headphones and keeping up. As long as you have two brains (as I do) it's not too difficult. The alternative, using SF, is to dub the original across and compare the waveforms.

Mostly, though, the audio we provide is fed into an AVID or similar and cut to the pictures. (Or, quite often these days, they cut the pictures to the words instead.)

So the short answer is, "usually, there is no other content for us to synch to."

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:5/7/2005 12:33:11 AM

Apologies, Sony PCH - it's not, as I said originally, a splash screen, it's a dialog box... (anger clouded my judgement...)

I'm not sure how this can be generated by anything other than SF itself - it has never appeared before SF8.0 was installed:

When opening SF8.0, a dialog box called "CTASIO Warning" appears.

Text says "There are no Creative audio products installed and running on the system that support ASIO."

The "OK" button has to be clicked before the red SF splash screen appears.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:5/7/2005 12:38:28 AM

Sonic, thank you. Your temp fix may possibly work, but I'm afraid I have to stick with 7.0 on the recording machine until 8.0 is fixed. I can't risk any more glitched recordings and I don't have time to check back everything we record here. (Some of our work is high volume, low unit profit stuff which is simply "topped and tailed" before being sent out to the client.)

I rolled back to 7.0 when I realised how badly flawed 8.0 was. I now only have 8.0 on the edit machine, which isn't used for recording.

I hope the tip helps others, though.

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:5/17/2005 3:22:35 PM

It's my birthday tomorrow (52, since you ask.)

8.0a would be MOST acceptable....

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:5/19/2005 3:00:31 PM

Happy Birthday Phil! 8.0a is out!

VP

Subject:RE: Enough is enough

Reply by: Phil Sayer

Date:6/3/2005 9:18:02 AM

DOH!!! I didn't check the forums...

Anyway, I'm pleased to read all the comments concerning 8.0a, and will get the patch now....