Subject:The search for Sonic Nirvana

Posted by: Rednroll

Date:4/23/2005 10:41:10 AM

I tried out the demo of Cakewalks Project 5 yesterday. It did give me some grief at first, just because I'm so use to the Sony apps, and know exactly where to look for things. After I got a bit more comfortable, I rewired P5 to Acid and it was the best thing since sliced bread. This was the first time I got to try out Rewire and it was exacty how I imagined it. Rewire is truly one of the best technologies out there. Now if I could someday see Acid get all the Vegas multitracking and editing features, and the rest of the things I always feel like I'm missing when working in Acid compared to Vegas, I would truly be one happy camper. Or if I could just get Vegas to have Rewire Host capabilities where I could rewire Acid and P5 to it, that would be pretty slick too. Then I would have my choice of a perfect sequencer, my choice of the perfect looper, and my choice of the perfect multiracker, all running together as
ONE,each specializing in their own given task.

I don't think I'm the only one with this vision, where everyone wants to work with what they are comfortable with, yet not feel limited in their workflow. I know a lot of people are in search of the ultimate all in one uber app. There's nothing wrong with that and I understand that desire. The problem there is what you consider to be the ultimate uber app, the person sitting next to you thinks that the midi implementation stinks and midi is a big part of their workflow so the whole app stinks. Imagine being able to buy a new car and you can pick the best engine from one manufacturer, the body style from another, the interior from yet another, and put them all together in your own custom car. Now who would buy that car, bits coming from each manufacturer so everyone's getting a slice of the pie? Some of us already do this type of stuff buliding our own PC, so then if the main purpose of software is to give the user flexibility , then why is my PC harware choices more flexible than integrating all my music software together? Why do I have to beat up Sony for not implementing Rewire into Vegas 6, when I truly love working with audio in Vegas. Why do I have to consider buying Sonar, because Vegas doesn't offer the Rewire flexibility, that I desire, to only come and learn the things that I might not desire about Sonar compared to Vegas? Why can't we get all these software companies working on the same target, instead of trying to individually build the better mouse trap? Hey, my home theatre has a TV from Panasonic, a DVD player from Toshiba, a VCR from Emerson, my Surround receiver is from Harman/Kardon, and the speakers connected to it are Infinity. All these parts working toghether in perfect harmony for accomplishing the one thing I want to do. Sit down relax and enjoy watching a movie. Now why do I have to sit down at my computer and feel frustrated in trying to do one thing, of trying to relax and make music? Why is it, when a new technology comes out for my home theatre system all these different manufacturers eagerly adobt it into their products. For example, look at all the Video formats you have available to plug into your Video monitor. First there was a RF connecter, which carried both the audio and video signals. Then there was Composit video where now the video was seperated from the audio, then follow that by S-Video for increased Video resolutions, and now we're using Component video. Not once have I run into the situation where I bought a new Video monitor, and I had to scream at my DVD manufacturer for the next three years to offer the same technology, so I can plug my DVD player into my Video monitor with the latest and greatest technology. Not once!!!! Now why do i constantly run into this problem with my music software? What is wrong with this industry of technology? Somebody please fix it, so the consumer is happy, and you guys are happy reapping the benefits. Somebody please explain to me, that if a benefit of having a product that is software based is to offer the user flexibility, then why do I have more flexibility with my individual hardware products, than I have with my individual software products?

Subject:RE: The search for Sonic Nirvana

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/23/2005 12:37:32 PM

I would imagine implementing ReWire in Vegas would be a bit of a funky affair, since Vegas does not adhere to a tempo (save for reference purposes) like ACID does. I'd imagine that even if ReWire was implemented in Vegas, tempo info would be for reference purposes only as far as Vegas is concerned.

What if, for example, you create a 128 BPM project in ACID for Vegas to "follow," and you decide that you want the project to be 130 BPM? Vegas isn't going to change what it has, since being a multitracker, it takes a "what you hear is what you get" approach.

You could delete the track and re-add it like you can with ACIDized samples to reflect the new tempo in Vegas. But I'd personally want to keep my multitracked recordings "as is" anyway.

SONAR naturally would have ReWire because it deals with MIDI tracks, which Vegas does not have. But then I'd argue that Vegas' GUI is far superior to SONAR's anyway. Vegas is also aimed towards both the audio and video crowds, whereas SONAR is aimed squarely at musicians.

Maybe someday SPD will find a way to better integrate the apps but as it is I'm not having too hard a time. (Note that I don't own Vegas, being Mr. Solo Musician myself. But I'd like to get it at some point.) God knows I'm thankful just to be able to do now what I could have only dreamed of years ago.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: The search for Sonic Nirvana

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/23/2005 5:11:29 PM

Well, I have no problem envisioning it. Maybe to better assist you with my vision, let's look at Acid one shots. What is a one shot dedicated track in Acid? To me it's a Vegas track without all the Vegas track capabilities, of being able to do all the Vegas type editing of multiple takes, and recording possibilities. One shots don't map to tempo changes either, that's the whole purpose of using one shots. If you want a one shot, to obey tempo mapping then you run it through the Acid beat mapper. So to me, the whole point you're making about Vegas is already in Acid and Acid has found a way to deal with it, so why can't Vegas?

So let's suppose users would be expecting it to behave more like you're thinking? Then Why couldn't we render a composite edited Vegas track to a new track, and then run beat mapper on it? Seems like it would be pretty simple to implement the beatmapper into Vegas wouldn't it? I mean the media manager seems transferable between Acid and Vegas, so why wouldn't the beat mapper function? Or heck, we woudn't even have to go that far, if we where able to run Acid and Vegas together, we could just render a track in Vegas, and open it in Acid and let Acid do all the beatmapping. All the solutions have already been shown to us, that it CAN be done, the bigger question is WHEN?

Subject:RE: The search for Sonic Nirvana

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/23/2005 6:15:08 PM

"What if, for example, you create a 128 BPM project in ACID for Vegas to "follow," and you decide that you want the project to be 130 BPM? Vegas isn't going to change what it has, since being a multitracker, it takes a "what you hear is what you get" approach"

Exactly! When I got into recording my old stuff my tascam portastudio 424 didn't care if the material in between my start/stop point was of any tempo/swing/etc...With rewire we know the universal "start" point of both apps. Now I get all funky in acid and create my drums/synths w/ different changes etc...I go to vegas and just listen to the backing track coming from acid into vegas via rewire and record.

[EDIT]This is how simple it seems to me. Not saying the implementation would be easy but vegas not having any type of tempo map seems like a "nice to have feature" since all I envision vegas as being is just a "summing point".

[EDIT]I can place LOOP points in one app which shows up in both so finding my way around is simple. ie:In acid I can set a loop region which then shows up in reason. I can adjust them in either app which gets updated in both.

Say if I place a marker in acid I can easily jump to it then switch over to reason to add what ever specifics I'd like to said area.

Ed.

Subject:RE: The search for Sonic Nirvana

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:4/25/2005 8:58:26 AM

heck, we woudn't even have to go that far, if we where able to run Acid and Vegas together, we could just render a track in Vegas, and open it in Acid and let Acid do all the beatmapping. All the solutions have already been shown to us, that it CAN be done, the bigger question is WHEN?

Oh, don't get me wrong, Brian. I wouldn't mind if ACID and Vegas could be hooked together somehow. Just not sure ReWire would be the way to do it.

What I could envision is something you mentioned before: Have a "multitrack view" separate from ACID's main timeline. (Much like how the bus track view is hidden until you whip it up.) That actually would be great and wouldn't interfere too much with ACID itself.

To be honest, however, I'm not sure how well this would go over from a business standpoint. If ACID had (audio) multitrack capability, that means Vegas wouldn't be of much use to those who needed multitracked audio.

I especially use One-shots a bunch to compose percussion tracks, since a lot of the time I can't find what I want amongst the drum loops. I also use that track type when making recordings I plan on ACIDizing into Loops.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: The search for Sonic Nirvana

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/25/2005 10:34:55 AM

"To be honest, however, I'm not sure how well this would go over from a business standpoint. If ACID had (audio) multitrack capability, that means Vegas wouldn't be of much use to those who needed multitracked audio."

That decision has already been made I think. Vegas has beyond any shadow of a doubt focused the overwhelming amount of their attention solidly at the video market (this is quite clear from the release of v.6 and its marketing). Audio is barely even mentioned in any of the marketing I've seen and when it is, its appears almost like an after-thought. Obviously, a lot of audio folks will continue using Vegas because they like the features enough. However, with v.6, Sony has completely removed Vegas from ever being viewed seriously in the audio world (except for those of us who use it of course). So from a marketing perspective, Sony does not even offer a "multitrack" app. They have a video NLE that possesses some fine multitrack features. So if they want to market to the audio world (other than SF and Acid), they will have to develop multitrack capabilities differently. I think, however, that it is a risky assumption that they are even interested in the audio multitrack market. The competition is great and most apps already have greater functionality as a comprehensive audio app than Vegas. Even newbies like Traktion are showing promise. My $.02

drbam