Shawn,
I bought a pair of Avila something or other shoes back in the day that everyone had to have Air Jordans. My shoes outlasted theirs.
Vegas will continue to grow; but as you've found, for film it's not the same answer as part of what FCP's marketing says they've got, although it's not everything it's cracked to be, Avid will dominate the film out world for many years to come, IMO. But, Vegas has gone to film out, just as Premiere and even Ulead MSP have.
FCP is a good tool, it's just that for many, Vegas is a more sensible answer due to the grouping of tools, speed, and ease of use. I can cut much faster in Vegas than with FCP. Considering the sampling, you can get a slightly better image with *some* things out of Vegas than you can with FCP, and of course, while FCP has audio tools, comparitively, they blow compared to Vegas. FCP gets a lot of hype; it also has a religious following that's not terribly unlike the Vegas following. Regretting buying Vegas though....that's a little like regretting buying a power nailer when you're a carpenter. There are other tools you sometimes need, but your main axe is gonna be the hammer.

[edit] you posted while I was posting. Barry's response is pretty accurate. If you're gonna freelance edit, you MUST know Avid's workflow and interface, and you SHOULD know FCP. Just get used to working with a lot of other apps to compliment those apps, because neither one can do nearly as much as Vegas can.

I may not be Professional or helpful - but I am honest...

Actually FCP is not really industry standard either - Avid is the 500 pound gorilla.

Vegas to some extent is a bit of a non-conformist oddball - but Dammit, that's what we like about it! I think the reason FCP has so many fans is more a Mac thing than an NLE thing. Apple was also smart - they made it cheap and very scalable, plus it works pretty good. Also here is my pet theory...Does anyone know someone who has actually purchased a copy of this program? I swear to god Apple is just handing out bootlegs of this thing themselves because every young FCP fan I know has not payed a penny for the program!

To say that FCP is an industry standard is to say that using a MAC to edit is also standard.

Consider this-every mac user in that class probably uses FCP. They don't know anything else and they certainly won't know anyone using anything else. So it'll appear to be a standard.

You're very right that Avid may be a standard and yet there are many more seats out there for Premiere.

The end result is that you may need to know a few NLEs. If so, maybe you should keep "cookbooks" to review before sitting down at one you haven't been at for a while.

As far as painting yourself into a corner...I'm beginning to believe that no projects transfer easily across systems. Hell, we couldn't move projects between Media100i and Media100 844! Probably the FCP users are saying that you may not be able to bring projects into FCP since that's the end of their line for the most part.

In short, you're going to be able to do what you need in Vegas quite handily. If you need to freelance on a different system then you'll just need to learn that system, and you'll be quite capable of doing that.

Rob Mack

Maybe you're overlooking the obvious? Vegas runs on the Windows platfrom, and FCP runs on a Mac. So unless you have both a PC and Mac seems you're kind of stuck. As far as silly terms like "industry standard" that's BS.
Someone said Avid is. That's closer to the truth then from it. There was a time when the "P" thing from Adobe was touted as "industry stanrdard" unless you were willing to take out a second mortage to get some watered down Avid system. The truth is if you want to get a job in somebody else shop then you probably would do better at least learning how to use what for now most use and sorry, that ain't Vegas. Maybe a few years from now, but not now. Still if you're on your own or a small shop or just getting starting or only want to learn video editing Vegas is hard to beat.

I have produced several documentaries with Vegas---no problem. Make sure you concentrate on what is really important---your subject matter, your camera and sound skills, and your editing ability. The rest is total nonsense.

Everyone, thank you for all the great responses. In my gut I knew I wanted to stick with Vegas, I just needed that little bit of assurance as I'm spending a lot of money lately on related filmmaking equipment. I sincerely don't mean to sound snobbish, but due to personal and professional reasons, I rally did not want to by a MAC, not that I couldn't or wouldn't if there was a VERY compelling reason, I just haven't found that compelling reason yet. I also highly doubt that I'll make a profession out of editing (check back in a couple of years though!), but if things go as planned I'll hire someone else to do the editing... or maybe I'll be doing the editing myself for the rest of my life, in which case I'd rather work with the Sony products that I know.

Thanks again, now I'm off to navigate the even more painful waters of which laptop to buy for editing purposes, I have a desktop, but want a portable system as well (if someone already knows of a great thread here or in another forum that is current and covers this subject, much appreciated)

Perhaps I can use the Vegas benchmark info [ http://www.hyperactivemusic.com/msprofiles/sony%20vegas%205/sony_vegas_5_audio_benchmark.htm ] as a reference, but I can't believe how many choices there out there, you'd think it'd be easier after building several high end desktops!

Rextilleon, do you have any links to your work? I'd love to see what others have done on Vegas, and in particular Documentaries.

When I was trying to decide on a NLE, a friend who uses FCP in his shop turned me on to Vegas. He told me if he was ever to go "sans-apple" he would use Vegas. Of course he's been drinking the Apple Kool-Aid for a while so he probably never will swap but he appreciates what Vegas is capable of....when he came over after I bought V5 he was even more impressed after giving it an upclose and personal once over. So the moral of this story is.....uhhhh....OK no moral just a mildy interesting comment.

Less Filling....Tastes Great

Don't drink the Kool-Aid....

Keith

The reason that there are so many Apple users/holdouts is because Apple created the market need for it much in the same way a drug pusher creates a market needs for his product. Some years ago, Apple started the company but did not have a market for their cheesy product. They pushed their stuff, I believe for free, to schools for some years thnking that kids would not only learn to grow comfortable in using their machines/software, but kids would eventually pressure their parents to buy them one for the home; teachers would eventually buy theirs for the home as well. Eventually, the market need for their product base grew, and the kids who had kids later in life also bought their kids an Apple. A brilliant scheme that is still paying off today. How do I know this, well, I was teaching at the time Apple started that marketing ploy, and watched all the hoopla unfold before my very eyes.

Allready Vegas is getting quite a buzz around many editing circles, and it will be a matter of time before people will have to notice what this great piece of software has to offer in terms of performance, reliability, robustness and smooth workflow.

Like a lot of stuff this sort of decision is a case of "whatever floats your goat".

Work out what you want to do with film and ask a few people what they use and why, ask enough people and the answers start repeating themselves " I use xxx because I can do this "
soon you'll find that they all do such and such
now find one that matches your skill level and technical ability and has enough features and tools for you to 'grow into'

I'd used Ulead products and Adobe for a bit but I'm lazy and wanted results quickly and easily, from capture to output and VEGAS did all that for me.
And it's a full package if you're a 'premiere' user you will want to buy 'after effects' for it and I suppose that applies to other programmes

If I had to do it over again, I would NOT go with Vegas.

I have put three years of effort into learning everything about his program, but since being taken over by Sony, the development effort has focused almost entirely on supporting new hardware. This is necessary, or course, but hardly sufficient.

Vegas still lacks broad third-party plug-in support. This support is still needed, despite Vegas having a few features that require plug-in support in other programs. It is hard to be a serious software program -- even if you are Microsoft or Sony -- without getting third parties to line up down the street to support your product. I am amazed and disturbed by Sony's almost total lack of effort in this direction. The history of the software industry is completely clear on this point: Winning software has third-party support; losing software does not.

I could list a long list of things that need to be added, and which have been requested since version 3. However, that is well-covered in other threads, and anyone that makes such a list gets accused of whining because their particular feature hasn't been added. If I were just a whiner, however, I wouldn't have written the Deshaker guide at the VASST site, or the FAQs at jetdv's site, or answered hundred of questions at this site, or made dozens of suggestions to the development team.

My advice to you is to wait one more week and then look hard at the NAB announcement (about Vegas 6). If you those features make your pulse quicken, and if you can immediately see how it will let you do things you couldn't do before, or will help you save a ton of time, then get Vegas and welcome to the club. However, as already stated, Vegas is not the mainstream, and I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that Sony either plans to enter the mainstream, or to lead it.

Too bad. They have a horse that could win the race. All they need is a jockey that knows how to ride.

Here's a news flash.... you can't force a third party company to write plug-ins for your product. Take Adobe's Photoshop as an example. It has tons of third party plug-ins, because its the undisputed champ as far as the absolute best photo enhancement application on the market. Period. Because it is and because of the market share Photoshop has, third party developers trip over each other to write more plug-ins for it. Vegas isn't the most popular video editor. Many of us may think its one of the best, but regardless, unless and until it gains more market share then companies that could write plug-ins for it will remain on the sidelines.

As far as Sony supporting Vegas, in my opinion they both have and haven't. If you see them as a compnay with deep pockets, no doubt about that, you see the growing support in trade show presence they have provided in the last couple years, gave something that Sonic Foundy could have never done...give Vegas wider exposure. On the down side becasue Sony is such a giant company, I doubt if Vegas amounts to one 10,000th of 1% of the total sales. So while its supported, it for sure isn't the focus of Sony as a corporation and no surprise, it never will be.

I see a lot of sour grapes in this forum, yet I'm often called the "angry guy", I simplly see things more clearly. <wink> For those that still don't get it, having Vegas win some race or be top dog likely isn't Sony's objective. It never was or will be. Read the previous paragraph again if you still don't get it. They bought Sonic Foundy for what to them was petty cash. Not only didn't the purchase fron SFmake a dent in the balance sheet or P/L statement, you'd need a high powered maginfying glass to see any impact at all.

That doesn't mean that Vegas isn't a good piece of software, it is. But it may not be the best software, depending on how you use it. Which brings us full circle. There has never been and never will be any software that does everything its users demand of it.

I see a lot of sour grapes in this forum, yet I'm often called the "angry guy", I simplly see things more clearly.
That's a pretty subjective statement. According to *you*, you see things more clearly. But that may not be the general consensus.

In much of the rest of your post, you're correct. Sony cannot compel a company to write third party tools. They can, and do provide an SDK (Software Development Kit) and provide access to their engineers to assist in writing third party plugs. They do a very good job of supporting third party teams, and as time rolls by, we'll see more and more people writing plugs as the Vegas community grows. One of the main reasons that Premiere has so many third party tools isn't the size of the Premiere community, it's the initial lack of tools that Adobe offered, which left the door open. Vegas has a lot of tools that were optional in earlier NLE systems. Now other NLE's are forced to offer more tools.
As far as Sony's acquisition of the software....there are a lot more benefits to Sony beyond having another product available to SKU up. Sony also acquired a lot of technology that likely hasn't been considered.

Billyboy,

I agree with most of what you say, except about the third party plugins. You imply that third party support is the result of being a leader. This begs the "chicken and the egg" question of how you become a leader without that third party support (because they sure don't line up outside your door when you first start a business). The answer is, that you have to go out an earn it. I've been in the software business since almost the beginning of the PC, and the game is very well understood. You hire a person who is the head ot ISV (Independent Software Vendor) development (or similar title). Does Sony have such a person? You hold multiple developer conferences, in each quadrant of the US, and overseas as well. Has Sony hosted any such conferences? You provide discounted or free booth space at all your trade shows for third parties and you highlight them in your marketing. Sony HAS done some of this, but since they don't have many third party folks, not enough.

I'm not a sour grapes guy. As I pointed out in my post, I've done a lot to contribute and have tried to get Sony to listen to business ideas as well as product ideas (my previous paragraph is about business, not product). Sony Corporate obviously isn't going to spend any time worrying about Vegas, but to the team that works on it, the success of Vegas, ACID, Sound Forge, etc. is just as important as it was when it was all up in Madison.

They could also develop tools or API interfaces to make it trivial for existing plugins (for other products) to work in the Vegas space. They haven't done this.

Finally, I don't expect Vegas to do everything. The two things I DO expect, and that I have been disappointed on are the lack of third party support (which I've argued ad nauseum), and the lack of any clear product direction. Exactly what was the story line behind the last release (Vegas 5)? What is the story line this week about Vegas 6?

If you don't know where you're going, you'll never get there.

Since I work with people with all sorts of video editing systems (Even folks editing 16mm with reels of film and synchronizers) I get to see results from different approaches.

As far as I can tell the answer to your question is: "It doesn't much matter"! I've seen some excellent work done by people with obsure editing programs they bought for $49.95 at Staples, and some total garbage created on full (and very expensive) Avid systems.

I've worked with people using FCP who had real problems getting their projects to be compatible with their clients, who were using Premier... And, of course, the other way around.

Vegas is my primary editing system - Since I'm only an occasional editor (I use it to prepare demo materials and just for fun.) I appreciate it's ease of use and flexibility. I also keep an iBook handy, so I can communicate with and understand (!) my Mac-based clients.

If I had a kids studying film/video, I'd encourage them to become familiar with both PCs and MACs...Heck, at todays prices, I'd get them one of each!.. Oh, and yeah, don't forget 16/35mm film!

Travis
Travis Voice-Over/Narration services.

I dont buy the theory that Vegas "needs" third party plugin support. While it would be nice, nearly all of the things that are desried as plugins are available in other apps. Vegas is an NLE that can composite. I dont think Vegas was ever designed with the thought in mind to compete with the Combustions and After Effects. The plugins that everyone wants for Vegas typically can be found and supported for AE. The only thing I want as far as plugin support is perhaps some sort of integration with AE which will never happen because Adobe will not let it happen.

Someone posted above that Sony doesn't care if Vegas is the best NLE in the industry. I do agree to a point. Personally, I wish Sony would push Vegas in some sort of fashion. All it will take it is for a major success story of a film that was edited in Vegas and then the industry will start to take notice. Personally, that is why I think Avid is the industry "standar". Everytime something has success, you see Avid touting it on their web page. Million Dollar baby had good success and that's what they are selling on their web page. They sell the dream honestly. Aspiring film makers see that a movie has success using a specific NLE and they are more likely to use that if not for anything other than "professional recoginition."

I seriously doubt that Sony has any plans to make Vegas compete with the Avid's and FCP's nor with the Combustions or After Effects of this world. While it would be nice, is there really any sense in re-inventing certain wheels? I would like to see Sony sponsor film makers who us Vegas in investing/sponsoring their films to help create more product awareness which will then lead to more plugin development.

Vegas is still regarded as a toy in the professional industry, just a tad higher than Pinnacle Studio. We all know Vegas is the bomb compared to Studio and even Premiere. So until Vegas can shed itself from the wedding video/porn/home video editing stigmas, we will continue to fight and scrap for every advantage we can muster.

The only problem with the time it takes to get plugin development for Vegas is that these same plugins ar already available now for other NLE's like Avid. Its great if we get plugin support Trapcode in a couple years. Problem is its available now for competitors who can use it now. That's where Vegas users suffer. We dont have the same competitive edge in our films that other NLE users do regardless of what genre we work in.

Thats my thoughts, while possibly and probably wrong and short sighted, still are my thoughts.

Actually, John, my perception is that third-party developers HAVE started noticing Vegas, particularly after Sony bought it. Boris, Cayman Graphics, Magic Bullet are some of the big boys who come to mind. The VASST site has a listing of at least 30 or more plug-ins for Vegas. That's a big improvement over just a few years ago.

On the audio side, Vegas has always had the best DirectX implementation of any video NLE. I deserted Premiere partly because its use of DirectX plug-ins like Sony/Sonic Foundry's Noise Reduction plug-in was atrocious. With VST support coming in Vegas 6, I think Vegas can legitimately claim to have the best 3rd-party audio plug-in support of any NLE in its class (maybe any class).

I think you're also discounting the effect that cheap and free scripts (such as you yourself have written) and plug-ins have on the market. Why would a larger corporate developer spend time porting its Premiere plug-in to Vegas when an Ed Troxel, Satish or John Meyer has already created something equally effective at a fraction of the cost?

Finally, having worked for a long time in Premiere, (up through Version 6.5) I can tell you there are distinct disadvantages to depending on 3rd Party plug-ins to do what you want. Premiere by itself was an O.K. program, but the zillions of plug-ins worked in varying degrees of competency from spectacular to miserable. Factor in the difficulty of tracking down problems between the core application and the third-party developer, with both tech support groups pointing at each other... to say nothing of plug-ins that fight with each other, and ... well, I'd much rather have everything contained in a single program.

I started on this little path about three years ago, never personally shot or edited a thing before that time. Basically I had what was essentially a resolute whim to make a movie ... or something. Like you I did a bunch of reading about all the options I had at the time, and just like you I had had some experience with Acid. After a few weeks I narrowed down my choices to either getting Vegas or getting a Mac. The thought that ultimately made swayed me to go with Vegas was that I wanted to learn how to edit, I didn't want to learn a new OS. So I downloaded a trial version, found a hack, rolled up my sleeves and got to work ( ayup, sad but true ). Within 8 months I had shot an edited my first feature length doc, and it only took that long because the shooting took 7 months or so. ( I was about midway through before I found the means to actually purchase the software )

While I am not the master of any of this stuff, I now do this full time. I've worked with editors, directors, producers, of all breeds. One of the things I love to do when they're here and asking questions about Vegas is ask " Well what's something that's hard or a pain in the ass to do in Final Cut/ Avid ", than I proceeded to show them the same thing in Vegas. I swear, every time I've done this it has impressed whomever it was that I was talking to.

I love coffee, I have my own little concoction that's espresso, half and half, and sugar. I have a Pasquini machine that's my life blood. These days there are machines that are much easier to operate, doesn't take much more than pushing a button ... but I hate em. I can spout off fifty reasons why I hate em and while I'll never use one. Is my way really better ? Hell if I know, but I'm convinced and committed to my way of doing things nonetheless and at the end of the day my way works for me. I suspect that there are a lot of Final Cut and Avid users that feel the same way.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

Thanks guys, especially Brian, for reminding me of the reasons I originally picked Vegas myself. Those reasons -- such as its amazing ability to handle audio -- are just as valid now as they ever were.

My curse is that I am both and engineer and a marketing person, and I know what's possible. I always see the glass half empty, but unlike a cynic or a depressed person, I don't just wring my hands, but instead want to DO something about it. My form of "doing" is to constantly remind the Vegas team that they should not rest on their laurels and that, unlike Microsoft Word, this is not an application that has "maxed out" and has nothing left to add.

Vegas is great if you are self sufficient and doing your own stuff. If you are looking to get hired by others, it's a slightly different story. With the new features coming with Vegas 6, it looks like Vegas is going to play quite nicely with others. If you have a good reel, and your own editing machine, it will be easier to convince someone you can do what they need you to do. You should learn FCP if you can too. Get together with a classmate and figure out how to work on the same files.


I love coffee, I have my own little concoction that's espresso, half and half, and sugar. I have a Pasquini machine that's my life blood. In NYC, they sell an old-time soda called Manhattan Special which is an espresso soda. In college me and friend jokingly made up a drink which is called the Vodka Snoopy. Vodka, Manhattan Special and Milk. Years after we came up with it, we decided to try it. It was fantastic. We had that idea way before vodka and Red Bull.

My reading of this forum suggests several here, actually quite a few are insecure in their decision to use Vegas. They worry about the name Vegas. Oh my God, what will any potential clients or my peers think? They worry that it isn't the most popular choice as far as editing software goes. They worry about Sony supposed lack of support, etc..

I can look past all that. I don't care what the product is called. I couldn't care less if competors use something else. Support, is about what I expected. Sony's main contribution so far was a much needed transfusion of cash or I suspect Sonic Foundy without Sony saving them from poor business decisions would have long time already gone belly up or horror of horrors could have been sold to somebody like Adobe or Pininacle who likely would have quickly killed it off or pick the bones and include some of its features they didn't have in their own products, then you'd never see Vegas again.

Sony rode in as a white knight.They did a good think in saving Vegas from getting thrown on the scap pile. Its a fate many good applications have suffered. It cost them next to nothing to buy Sonic Foundry. They support Vegas to a degree like they support their other product lines. But don't lose focus of what Sony is all about. Hint: It isn't video editing, a big chuck of their business is consumer electronics. That Vegas is such a tiny slice of their corporate pie as far as what they're into it probably doesn't even show up on the radar.

Sure it would be nice if Sony pumped hundreds of millions into beefing up Vegas, but the reality of that isn't likely. Vegas like the rest of the previous Sonic Foundy product line is nothing more tha a little cog on a giant wheel that has thousands of others. Be thankful Vegas didn't die. It was in intensive care for quite a well. Now it least its healthly. If or not it ever takes the lead position in what gets used most, I couldn't care less because to me it doesn't matter. You can call me a lot of things, but insecure isn't one of them. I use Vegas because it works for me. If it doesn't work for you,nothing stopping you from trying something else. What does get annoying is all the noise and endless moaning of what Vegas doesn't do. If it doesn't do what you need, then maybe it is time to look elsewhere. For me, the most asked for "feature" isn't a feature at all, rather they shouldi FIX THE FEW KNOWN BUGS, like flash frame popping up unexpected that many have documented. That would be cool.

Actually, the piracy of fcp is pretty much nonexistent here. I know a lot of editors and all of them but 1 uses fcp. Of them, many have some bootlegged copies of some software, but not fcp. One guy has a copy he bought on ebay that he's very suspicious of, but he paid money for it just the same.
Weird.