Subject:SF8 Worth if for CD Architect?

Posted by: decrink

Date:4/9/2005 7:03:09 PM

OK, I had CD architect about 4 years ago when I first started with Sonic Foundry stuff. I've pretty much kept up with upgrades with Vegas, Acid, and SF. I skipped the latest Acid, Vegas continues to annoy with its mostly Video projections for 6 and now lots of complaints about SF8 from other long time users. I kind of liked the possibility of an upgrade with CD architect for mastering but am wondering if its worth $99 bucks, given that I'm going to put it on the hard drive and wait for the bug fixes (is that an annoying position in this day and age, to buy something so buggy)?

I know, I know, is it worth it to me is different than is it worth it to you? Just soliciting a few opinions.

Anybody going to the Vegas party at NAB?
Bill

Subject:RE: SF8 Worth if for CD Architect?

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/9/2005 7:33:31 PM

Well certainly it'd be worth it – if and when the bugs get fixed. In fact, I think for $99 this would be an absolute killer deal. If you're a gambling person and don't mind risking $99, then go for it – which is what I'm going to do. However, you will have to wait for a while to see if you actually "win." Buy it, sit tight and monitor the forum till it looks like it might be worth installing. I personally am not expecting the bugs to get resolved enough for me to install for at least a couple of months, perhaps longer given that the problems with SF8 seem so extensive. Acid 5 is still sitting on a shelf in my studio - never installed.

drbam

Subject:RE: SF8 Worth if for CD Architect?

Reply by: decrink

Date:4/9/2005 10:17:18 PM

Bizarre isn't it? We're talking about buying a product and putting it on the shelf hoping it will get worked out. I guess I have a long history of trusting Sonic. Just not sure what to make of this one, I'm getting tired of the gambling.

Subject:RE: SF8 Worth if for CD Architect?

Reply by: billybk

Date:4/10/2005 7:04:36 AM

Acid 5 is still sitting on a shelf in my studio - never installed.

drbam


Cripes drbam, I have been using ACID Pro 5, almost daily, for the last five months and other than a few niggles, ( I never really had a problem with crashes) I have been able to get my work done. Since the 5.0a update, what few problems I did have have been cleared up. I had gotten so spoiled with A5 Pro, with all the new features (many of which I actually use day to day now), that when I did briefly go back to 4.0, for a project, I really missed what I had lost from 5.0 and could not wait to dump 4.0. Needless to say, 4.0 is now permantantly off my DAW, since I have no future use for it. Some of my favorite indespensible features, in 5.0?

Folder Tracks: Man, how did we ever live without this space saving and organizational feature.

Bus to Bus Routing: I love this feature. Great for stem mixing! I will route various groups of tracks (drums, bass, guitar, BG vocals, percussion, keys etc...) to the appropriate buses (Drum bus, Bass bus, Guitar bus etc...) and then route these buses to other FX buses and maybe to other buses before going to the Master bus.

VST support: Using my UAD-1 DSP cards, and the VST plugins, in ACID, has never worked better than in 5.0a. Just like using any other native plugin and the massive native CPU munching that was so prevelant, in ACID 4, has been tamed, in A5. Very happy about that!

Realtime Event Reverse: What a great creative tool. I have already used it in one form or another in a number of projects already. One keystroke, instant reverse, in realtime. Gotta love it!

Bypass All Audio FX: Nice tool to have when you want to quickly A/B an dry/effects mix or when you are using a lot of effects and want to record an audio/MIDI track, to quickly free up CPU, in a pinch. With the new ACID Pro 5 Key Mapping feature I have assigned F10 to be my instant hot key, for this. Cool!

Rewire Slave: Works like a charm. I have already created some SONAR 4/ACID 5 projects with this. It is cool to work, in my favorite multi-track host app and then also have my fav loop arranging tool, used as a plugin. Shweet!

Plug-In Manager: Similar to the one in Sound Forge. Great for navigating and adding FX from the PIM dockable window. Also for organizing FX and creating and saving customized FX plugin chains. The FX chains, once created, are available for use between various host apps (ACID Pro 5, Vegas 5 & SF6,7,8), that have the PIM, BTW

Customizable Workspace: I like having additional dockable windows available, like the new Plug-In Manager window. So now I can not only easily find & organize my plugins, but also drag and drop the effects, to tracks and buses, in a matter of seconds. The new Key Mapping feature has allowed me to create my own custom shortcuts, like the aforementioned, Bypass All Audio FX, quickly and easily too.

I have also been enjoying the new groove mapping tools, Media Manager (I have my entire 38GB loop library tagged and cataloged), the new DOA CD burning capbility and even the new enhanced audio time stretching modes sound better than 4.0, IMO. One nice little undocumented feature in ACID Pro 5, is the use of color codes, on the FX icons, that indicate whether a plugin chain has delay compensated plugins in it and ACID is using PDC. Sorta like FX bin status lights:

Green: means that there is no delay compensation by Acid, none of the FX in the chain introduce a delay

Yellow: means that there is delay compensation by Acid, at least one of the FX in the chain introduce a delay

Red: When ACID is ReWired to another host, the plugin indicator goes red to indicate that the plugins have been bypassed. This is a limitation of ReWire.


I have been using ACID since 1.0 and 5.0 is the best most comprehensive update ever, IMHO! At least, most of the improvements are features that I can actually use, in my projects. Out of the gate, 5.0 is far more stable than 4.0 ever was or I would not be using it with my UAD-1 cards.

I hope you take another look at ACID 5, it is a shame to have it just sitting, on a shelf collecting dust.

Subject:RE: SF8 Worth if for CD Architect?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/10/2005 8:51:49 AM

I think peoples expectations have changed and not so much the quality aspects of the first intial release of the software. I hear everyone saying how SF4.5 was a rock in their setup, and was the quality they always expected from Sonic Foundry. Well if you look at SF4.5, it had upates up to "h". Acid 4.0 went up to "g", the same as Acid 3.0. Maybe there's just more people on these forums posting bugs in their setup then in the past making you more aware of the problems? I've been using SF 8.0 in my setup and it's been pretty solid in my workflow. Yes, I have been able to run across a couple bugs, but have been able to work around them. I guess the whole point I'm making, is that if your point is that Sonic Foundry versions came out the door with less bugs, then why did they have to update to version "h" for SF 4.5? I think it's more along the lines of what I mentioned. More people are using the internet, more people using the program, more people posting in this forum, more varities in different PC setups, more variables to cause bugs, thus you are more aware of the bugs, not that there is necessarily more of them. Your awareness of them grew, not the bug count.

Let's not forget the complexity of the program grows with every new release, therefore this opens the doors for things that worked in past versions to get bugs introduced to them by the addition of new features and having them work together. I'm an engineer and work in the development of products, so I see this on a daily basis. One of my customers that I work with closely in the development of these products is Toyota/Lexus. Toyota/Lexus has become a leading car manufacturer due to one major reason.....the quality and reliability aspect of their cars. Do you know how they've developed that aspect in their design philosophy? Their design philosophy is "Minimal Change", because they're aware of the fact that changes, introduce problems. Everyone here expects the Sony software products to get all the latest and greatest bells and whistles to stay competative with all the other options out there. So they can't maintain a minimal change aspect guildeline to stay competative and give you the customer what you expect. Even Toyota/Lexus has run into this problem with their minimal change design philosophy, where they find they have to make more changes to stay competative. You know what the result has been for them? More problems and higher quality returns. Sony can spend years and years making sure they release a bug free Sound Forge for you, where most of that time would have to be spent on testing the product and not necessarily implementing a new feature. What would be your complaints then? I'll tell you. "We've been waiting over 2 1/2 years for a new release, and this is all we got?".....Ohhh...we got this solid release with no bugs, but then we only got a couple new features added from the last version. "What the heck have they been doing over the past 2 1/2 years?."...Well, they've been spending a lot of time testing this product out to ensure it ships with minimal bugs, so everyone won't be upset. So you decide, which complaint side would you rather be on, because that's truly the options.

Subject:RE: SF8 Worth if for CD Architect?

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/10/2005 1:10:55 PM

>>Cripes drbam, I have been using ACID Pro 5, almost daily, for the last five months and other than a few niggles,<<

billybk: I appreciate your support but don't want to hijack this thread into an Acid discussion. Briefly though, I've followed your posts on all the Sony forums and its pretty clear that you are one of the very fortunate users that has had few problems where many are having difficulties. Everytime I even take a cursory look at the Acid posts, there's nothing that encourages me to install Acid 5. Perhaps if I get some downtime to experiment with it, but I have very little tolerance for buggy, problematic software, even if its just a "few niggles" (whatever that is). You also seem to be the only UAD1 user (with Sony apps) that isn't completely frustrated. I think you must be living right and/or have some excellent karma. ;-)

drbam