Subject:Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ?

Posted by: Zacchino

Date:3/23/2005 5:45:40 PM

Hello there,

I don't know (and I hope not) if this issue is specific to this song (.acd)...

My issue is that I have 2 tracks of mono voice samples. I want to put the first one on the left, so I add pan @ -40% and on the other one I add pan @ 40%.

Ok, now I route both of them in the C bus... And now it is mono. Is this normal ? or have I missed something ?

Damn, this sounds like a newbie question...

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ?

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/23/2005 6:18:59 PM

It should be panned the way you have it set. If you are actually sending to the bus (as opposed to assigning it), then you would have to make sure the send is set to post volume/pan in order to get you panning.

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ?

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/24/2005 5:48:17 AM

I know how to do this in Cubase, but it's not possible in Acid.... You can't specify whether the volume/pan is pre or post bus.

Do you have any other Ideas ? Does it act the same way on your PC ?

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/24/2005 7:05:20 AM

Pre/Post Volume is only available when you use a Bus as a Send (i.e., Assignable FX). You are probably routing it to the bus which is different.

The mono tracks should still maintain their stereo pan when you assign them to the bus. Are they the same sample? Why do you think they are mono? Is it because they are both coming out of the center? That’s because -40 and +40 = Center. Try reversing one of the events and you will hear them panned left and right because the events will happen at different times.

If they are the same sample and you want to widen the sound a bit to give the illusion of stereo, change the offset of one of the loops by about 100 samples and pitch shift it 0.050 semitones (about 5 cents). This will give it more depth.

~jr

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/24/2005 7:56:46 AM

Works as expected for me. One signal panned left in the mix, the other right.

Do you have any FX on the tracks or on the buses?

Where is BUS C Routed to?

Peter

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ?

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/24/2005 3:41:40 PM

>Pre/Post Volume is only available
>when you use a Bus as a Send (i.e., Assignable FX).
That's right.

>Are they the same sample ?
Nope, different samples (well, the same phrase is sung twice, but two different shots are taken).


>Why do you think they are mono?
Because I can hear it and I can also see it (Pinguin AudioMeter) : Screenshot
1 and Screenshot

>That’s because -40 and +40 = Center
For the absolute same file (duplicated) I guess this is right. But that's not my case !

>change the offset of one of the loops by about
>100 samples and pitch shift it 0.050 semitones (about 5 cents).
I usually avoid this kind of process, especially on voices (but for synth it's awesome ! you get this "Neptunes" feel you know ^^)
.

So, what's the conclusion ? My acid file is buggy ? (IMO I don't think so...) Or maybe I missed something (I don't think so too, but who knows)

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/24/2005 3:47:54 PM

Ok I found out the culprit while trying to workout the issue :

It was Antares Microphone Modeler (good plugin, but doesn't replace original microphones at all for my ears ^^).

As it is a mono plugin, it was processing my two stereo tracks in mono.

The weird thing is, that even if bypassed, the tracks are still in mono... Not that weird though, as it would do the same thing for hardware...

Well... Was this made on purpose ? I don't know but it's kind of logical ^^.

Conclusion : False alert. Sorry for thinking my issues out loud on this forum, I hope this will be useful for other hairhead guys like I ^^

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/24/2005 5:27:41 PM

> False alert. Sorry for thinking my issues out loud on this forum, I hope this will be useful for other hairhead guys like I

Actually, it’s great that you worked it out on the forum. Now we’ll all know to ask if there are any mono FX on the bus next time.

BTW, how do you like the Antares Microphone Modeler? I see your trying to make an SM57 sound like a Neuman. ;-) I almost picked up a copy but I downloaded the trial and it wanted to install Pace so I cancelled the install. I don’t allow that junk on my PC’s. It has a long history of not only screwing up your PC but locking you out of software that you paid for. Too bad. I bought an Audio-Technica AT4033 instead. It’s a really nice mic.

~jr

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: TShaw

Date:3/24/2005 10:45:50 PM

"False alert. Sorry for thinking my issues out loud on this forum, I hope this will be useful for other hairhead guys like"

No problem. I just learned something and am off to play with an idea!

TNX, Terry

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/25/2005 4:58:29 AM

>how do you like the Antares Microphone Modeler?

Well, even if in this mix I tryied hard transforming my cheap (but classic) SM57 into a Neuman M149, it didn't worked out that well. I don't recommend this one at all : i tryied all the other simulations, and it doesn't get the job right as I still need dynamic eqs after the process.

Audio Technica are awesome : a friend of mine has the AT4060, and for voices (low spoken, or shouted), it manages the hi frequencies so well that you don't even have to use any preamp !

I'll maybe get one too, for voices especially. How's the AT4033 ? At least it doesn't seem too expensive

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/25/2005 8:00:05 AM

> a friend of mine has the AT4060, and for voices (low spoken, or shouted), it manages the hi frequencies so well that you don't even have to use any preamp !

Yea, at $1000 it had better be awesome. ;-)

> How's the AT4033 ?

I love my AT4033. It is known for its midrange bump which makes the vocal punch out in a mix and is a good all around mic. I spoke with one of the Audio-Technica guys out at the NAAM show and he said they tried to discontinue it a couple of years back, but the studio community went up in arms so they continued making it again. (It’s now the AT4033/CL) It’s a classic “workhorse” mic.

Another possibility is the AT4040. It’s $100 cheaper than the 4033 ($299) and has less midrange punch than the 4033 and a little more of a rise in the top end. I borrowed the AT3060 for a while (the lower cost version of the 4060) to make the VASST Intro to ACID DVD and liked that as well. It has a very small milspec tube and a nice warm sound. It’s only $100 more than the 4033.

So pretty much you have the AT4040 at $299, AT4033 at $399, and the AT3060 tube mic at $499. Select your price range and you can’t do wrong with any of them.

Considering the Antares Microphone Modeler costs $229 and you don’t really like it (there are lots of reviews on the Internet that agree with you btw) it’s sounds like people would be better off putting that money towards an AT4040 and have a great vocal mic to begin with.

~jr

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/25/2005 8:15:11 PM

Thanx for all these infos,

So I guess your AT4033 can be considered as a classic, but when I read "midrange bump [...] voice punch out in a mix", I thought right away "bad ! bad !"... I love when the voice you're recording is well handed in the hi frequencies, and slight lowered in the mid range freqs, so it get "embedded" in a mix. I also love the way sm57 handles the bass frequencies for voices...

So knowing this, do you have an idea of a good mic of that kind by audio technica ? Reading your post, the AT4040 seems fair enough to my needs... I don't want specially a tube mic (but I don't want a mic that is too harsh/electric-feel either). So the AT3060 wouldn't be right as far as I know.

You know how disappointing it is to put an eq after a shoot... That's why I'm planning to buy a mic soon, and the Audio Technica seem so sweet !

After reading all this, if you get the Idea of the AT mic I'm looking for, what do you suggest me ? I have a $1300 budget - so I can't offer any mistake on this one ^^. (so, the AT4060 would be a good choice for my needs/money ?)

PS: If you have got tips on preamps, I take it ! I think Avalon VT-737sp is the right one... But I don't really feel the need to put 2000 bucks in a preamp unless I discover that preamps are really indispensable one day ^^.

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/28/2005 1:25:55 PM

Thanx in advance for your time

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/28/2005 8:13:18 PM

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I’ve never used the AT4060 but I understand that being a vacuum tube mic will give you a great warm sound with nice highs. I asked a friend about a preamp and he suggested a Manley in the same price range as the Avalon (~$2000). I don’t use one so I can’t recommend one myself.

~jr

Subject:RE: Routing Panned tracks thru a Bus = Back to mono ? - Found the culprit !

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/28/2005 9:57:05 PM

Thanx !

I checked out Manley's Micpre... Seems like Manley's "Langevin Dual Vocal Combo" is a sweet piece of gear, for the same price of the Avalon 757sp ($2000).

I also checked the mics, very expensive but some of them are classics - which explains the price ^^.