Subject:Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Posted by: StormCrow

Date:3/27/2005 12:50:25 PM

I have Sound Forge 7.0 but have to be honest in that I have never used it. I attended a WEVA seminar class sponsered by Adobe this last week and was blown away by the ease of removing cough's, cell phones, air-conditioner hum, wind and more using the Audition software. It was done visually and took only minutes to accomplish with outstanding results. I have purchased and read the book "Instant Sound Forge" but honestly did not find it very informative and so I have yet to use Sound Forge in my video productions to date. Does SF have the same capabilities as Audition out of the box or do you have to buy a bunch of plug-ins? Audition also has a music generator built right in where as with SF you would have to also purchase ACID to get these capabilities. I'm not trying to knock these Sony titles, just want to know how easy it would be to "repair the audio in SF.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: drbam

Date:3/27/2005 4:31:32 PM

Sound Forge does not include "noise reduction" features like Adobe Audition. Sony's Noise Reduction 2.0 is available a separate plugin package and it works great, but again it must be purchased separately (or is sometimes included in a package sale).

drbam

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: PeterXI

Date:3/27/2005 10:09:11 PM

Here's one editor's opinion:

NR 2 is superb. Ask DSE. He wrote a great articel a while back about salvaging audio from a telephone recording, said salvaged audio was used as evidence in a court case.

Got Audition as part of the Adobe Package that comes with a Matrox RT X100 Pro. Loaded it and, with an open mind, gave it a fair trial. It does a good job of trying to be an all-in-one (ACID-V5-SF7) but it isn't for me.

Sound Forge is the best tool I've ever used for editing individual clips. It is not a Mixer (like Vegas/Audition) but if you do a lot of sound editing, SF is the best AFFORDABLE tool going. I am sure AVID must have some sort of audio post tool by now but I mothballed my Media Composer last year and will be giving it to the surplus people next year.

SF/Vegas is an excellent combo and about all you need for audio post.

Peter

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: sirshambling

Date:3/27/2005 11:48:46 PM

SF's Noise Reduction 2 plug-in is very good but the interface is very poor indeed. Counter intuitive in many areas I would say.

Adobe's built in noise reduction package is also very good with a much better interface.

I've been doing some comparative studies on a clicky/cracklynoisy vinyl 45 dub on the 2 systems - and on Virtos Noise reduction to see which does the best/quickest job of cleaning the sound without damaging it.

All three give very similar -and usable - results after tweaking the setiings etc. Adobe is the easiest to use and the noise reduction package is included in the price - Sound Forge's Noise Reduction will set you back another $200 or so.

But the best program for reducing noise/cleaning up a recording is undoubtedly Diamond Cut's DC6. A fantastically flexible and powerful piece of software not just capable of sorting out the music from the noise but also enhancing it and bringing it back to life. Amazing sets of presets even down to the sound of different amplifiers! But it's a stand alone product not a plug in and requires a great dea lof patience/learning.

John.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: StormCrow

Date:3/28/2005 5:32:02 AM

Excellent replies guys! I currently have SF 7.0 and was thinking of upgrading to 8.0 but seeing how I have yet to even use SF 7.0 since getting it way back last summer I have been hesitant to upgrade. I was just very impressed at how easy and visual it was to remove unwanted noises using Audition. You could actually see what it was you were removing. Plus with Audition you get a discount if you are a user of another software such as SF. I believe you get a $50 discount bringing it down to $250. So, do I spend $150 to upgrade SF to 8.0 and then another $200 to add the noise reduction or just go with the Audition?

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: PeterXI

Date:3/28/2005 5:33:05 AM

Interesting, John. How well does Diamond Cut's DC6 handle bad BG noise such as compressors (steady) or diesel powered engines ("pulsating")? Most of my NR work entails attenuating Refinery noises that, alas, are ever present where I work. also do a lot of recording in the cabs of Diesel Electric Mining Trucks and Electric Shovels. Can't shut them off. NR can do only so much so I have an open mind with respect to alternative tools. How much is DC6?

Peter

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: mpd

Date:3/28/2005 5:34:19 AM

DigiDesign (ie Protools) is an Avid company.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: mpd

Date:3/28/2005 5:36:17 AM

How are you using NR2? In my experience, NR2 works best when you use multiple passes of low reduction settings using a different noise print each time.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: PeterXI

Date:3/28/2005 5:37:06 AM

SOunds as though you should go with Audition. You haven't invested any time learning Sound Forge so Adobe appears to be the most cost effective solution both money and time-wise.

Peter

I think I may have to reload my Audition and check out the NR feature. I was going upgrade a second SF licesne but if Adobe is as good as some are saying, my new editor might as well learn it, rather than me buying anyhting else.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: PeterXI

Date:3/28/2005 5:40:10 AM

Multi-passes with NR, certainly, a few dB at a time. It would be so much easier if people would tolerate the on cam person speaking loudly into a good stick mic but unfortunately that option is unacceptable. Have to use wireless lapels. Sucks, eh?

Peter

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: mpd

Date:3/28/2005 6:57:15 AM

Yeah, that does prettty much suck. I just had to help someone who did a shoot with the camera mic instead of a lav. It was all generic noise, so there wasn't much that he could do...

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: sirshambling

Date:3/28/2005 8:18:52 AM

As I understand it from their website www.diamondcut.com their software will deal with all sorts of noises - big, little everything. Their Forensics product is used a lot in surveillance operations and also by State and Governement in their various needs. Not surprisingly that product is priced at $1300!!

The more usual Diamond Cut 6 which I use a great deal for music restoration is $199.

There are downloadable demos.

John.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: John 17:17

Date:3/28/2005 11:30:31 AM

I can't speak for Diamond Cut, but I can say that the Waves Restoration plug-in (www.waves.com) is the best I've ever used for restoring tapes and lps. I'm very satisfied with it. It's worth every $1,200 that it costs. I can't imagine any program even coming close to rivaling it. If you want proof, email me your noisy .wav file and I'll put my experience to work for you using Waves and I'll show you just how powerful it is.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: sirshambling

Date:3/28/2005 2:01:05 PM

Yes Waves is superb I agree - I've been with a very good pro sound engineer and watched him using it for an afternoon.

Sadly $1200 is way outside my pocket! At the lower end Diamond Cut is the best I've found.

John.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: patrickharris

Date:3/29/2005 12:19:18 PM

I'm interested in click/crackle removal for restoring old 78 recordings, and I've trialed several audio restoration packages, including Waves and Algorithmix ScratchFree Pro. By far the best I have come across is the new Sony Oxford Restoration plugin - it is significantly better than the rest.

Amongst the lower end products, I found Sony Noise Reduction much better than Diamond Cut, but perhaps I didn't spend enough time fine-tuning the DC options.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: rique

Date:3/29/2005 2:23:28 PM

Actually, if you have SF7 you can upograde to SF8 for $99 until April 15th.

The Link

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: farss

Date:3/29/2005 4:45:20 PM

I'm very interested in the Oxford plugs, do they work in SF or Vegas?

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: patrickharris

Date:3/29/2005 5:31:43 PM

Hi Farss - unfortunately the Sony Oxford Restoration only works in ProTools, but they are so good, I'm considering buying ProTools purely to run this plugin!

I have some before and after wave files I can send to you if you are interested in hearing the Sony Oxford decrackle, & also comparisons with Algorithmix ScratchFree Pro, Waves, etc. The Sony Oxford really is far superior.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: mpd

Date:3/29/2005 5:53:55 PM

You can also buy the Oxford plugins if you have a TC Electronics PowerCore.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: John 17:17

Date:3/29/2005 6:00:08 PM

An avid user of Waves Restoration, I find that it has difficulty restoring lps that have been damaged due to a poor/old needle and/or way too heavy needle tracking; a lot of the records I get are used, and unfortunately, you can't see it by looking at the record, but I soon discover that the previous owner(s) used a junky needle on the records, or way too heavy tracking on the records, permanently destroying the grooves, and causing a distortion--especially in the louder audio passages--that Waves Restoration has difficulty correcting. You may try Waves Deesser to help with this, though. I'd like to see if Oxford can do anything about this problem.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: plasmavideo

Date:3/29/2005 6:17:29 PM

The question is (from my standpoint) almost unanswerable. What I mean is that I use both Sound Forge, it's NR2 plugin, and Cool Edit Pro, the predecessor to Audition - Adobe bought Cool Edit Pro from Syntrillium and morphed it into Audition.

Frankly, I would not want to give either up. I've found each handles noise reduction a bit differently, and I've had varying results depending on the type of noise. The Vinyl Restoration tool in Sound Forge (no extra plug-in needed) works wonders on some material. NR2 works better on different kinds of "noise" and the noise reduction options in Audition are good as well. The click/pop eliminator works well on some types of noise in Audition - the Smooth/Enhance function in Sound Forge works well for some types of impulse noise. NR2 for Sound Forge allows more "tweaking" ability than Audition, etc, etc, etc. On my wife's and my wedding video, from an old VHS tape from years oago, Sony NR2 did an incredible job removing ambient noise from a mic located 100 feet from the ceremony (brother-in-law tape), but Cool Edit (Audition) was superior in removing other types of noise from a live country music performance in a bar I restored from a 30 year old cassette.

I remember restoring a recording last year where I bounced back and forth between the two to achieve what I was looking for.

The same general idea goes for all other functions. Tonight, for instance, I'm working on some old radio station "airchecks" of some reel-to-reel recordings from the 1970s. I captured them with Cool Edit Pro, and then wished I had the Wave Hammer option from Sound Forge available to pre-process them for CD burning.

Each job is different, and each tool has its strengths. One positive for Audition is that it includes a multi-track tool, which Sound Forge lacks unless you get Vegas. BUT the upgrade to Sound Forge 8 includes CD Architect, which is valuable as well.

I wish I had all of these options back when I worked in radio, and the most elaborate editing tool I had was a razor blade and some downstream EQ and compression devices!

I have used the Virtos NR plug-in as well at some point somewhere, it was the limited version included with, I think, Pyro, and it was quite remarkable for a one button-fits-all solution. I understand the full version offers other options.

Noise reduction and audio restoration is a true art, and no tool fits every situation.

Hope I've confused you enough! If you do this for a business, I advise you to get both. I'm also comfortable with each interface - you might prefer one over the other.

Tom

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: plasmavideo

Date:3/29/2005 6:44:19 PM

Actually, it gets more confusing as my answer is not 100% correct, as some of the plug-ins from SF are available in Audition as Direct X plugins so you can do some identical things within both apps if you have both installed. My answer was given assuming you would be using one or the other.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: patrickharris

Date:3/29/2005 6:59:58 PM

The Sony Oxford restoration doesn't currently work with Powercore, only Protools (LE+).

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: mpd

Date:3/30/2005 6:53:19 AM

Oops, my bad. I am looking into getting a PowerCore and noticed that some of the Oxford plugins work with it, but didn't realize that the restoration and reverb plugins don't.

Subject:RE: Can SF remove noises as easily as Adobe Audition?

Reply by: John 17:17

Date:3/31/2005 6:23:45 PM

One little "trick" that may help in some restoration projects: resample the song to 22,050, or even 11,025 sample rate. THEN apply the desired restoration filters (i.e., Waves x-click), then resample back to 44,100 in order to burn to CD. By resampling down, you are essentially making a "pop" that once was, say, 200 samples wide, now 100 samples wide, thus enabling some restoration plug-ins to recognize the "pop" and do something with it; if it were too wide, some programs would never recognize it. (Sony Oxford Restoration claims to be able to handle unusually wide clicks.) CAUTION: In so doing, you run a risk in diminishing the quality of the song, in some instances.