Subject:The ACID Paradigm

Posted by: H2000

Date:3/18/2005 5:30:47 PM

We often hear of the "ACID Paradgm" (one take = one track) and how this cannot be overcome, lest the entire 'ease of use' factor and user interface will crumble. While I understand why this was done originally and is still done for loop tracks, why not have one-shot tracks be normal editable tracks such as those in Vegas or any other DAW? In other words, be able to create multiple takes, crossfades, cut-n-pastes, etc.

Yes, I know "ACID is not a DAW, it's a loop arranger". But would treating one-shot tracks in this way really impede on the "ACID Paradigm"? Would it really create problems for the overall workflow concept?

I use ACID (as I think many do) to create and arrange music. I record my own instument tracks and loops in addition to using drum loops. I can take the compositions quite far. Unfortunately, when it comes time to record a Vocalist or other live performer the "Paradigm" leaves me hanging. It is simply not convenient or useful to create separate tracks for each vocal take or horn line, and it is even less convenient to edit them together later. This is generally the point where I take what I've done and manually recreate it in Vegas. Everything else happens there.

I was just interested to hear what others thought about the "Paradigm", and whether or not treating "one-shot" tracks differently than loop tracks (which are generally loaded into memory - not read from the hard drive) would mess the whole thing up.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/18/2005 8:26:38 PM

I wonder how hard it would be for users to grasp that some tracks can only contain a single wave while others can contain multiple waves like normal tracks in other DAWs? It certainly makes sense to me. I would NOT change the behavior of one-shot tracks. One-shots need to stay within the paradigm so that you can paint cymbals, hi-hats, kicks and other parts in a pattern. If you change the way one-shot tracks work you loose this ability and mess people up.

I would simply introduce a new track type that allows multiple wave files like Vegas does. I don’t think anyone would have a problem grasping a new track type with new behavior. If anything it would enhance the paradigm.

~jr

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Klirrfaktor

Date:3/19/2005 1:09:24 AM

actually this is a great idea. personally i do very rarely use the loop feature in acid - i mostly work with one-shots. i know this is a missuse of the programm but no sequencer has such a nice audio editing interface as acid. the chopper and just the possibillities of an arragement is kickin in acid, but sometimes im missing that feature you are requesting too. in that situations i just merge the waves in soundforge and reload the file then in acid. this takes some time but i get what i want. i never thought about requesting that feature, since the idea behind acid is totally different. but if you can somwhow mark a whole track as one-shot line this would be perfect.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: coolout

Date:3/19/2005 2:10:04 AM

i guess all the folks complaining about this has won me over a bit.

i can visualize an additional track type that supports multiple WAVs and direct recording.

i'm thinking it would be basically called "audio track".

all the acid dev team would have to do is incorprate the audio track part of vegas into acid.

i guess it must be harder than it sounds.

as far as mulitple takes with a vocalist goes, my workaround is to simply have the song looping while recording, copying the track however many times for separate each take, and then just line them up together.

you never have to punch in that way, just find the best parts of each take and bus them together.

key-commands make this a pretty quick affair.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/19/2005 9:45:47 AM

I see your point about the painting of "one-shots". I guess it would have to be a new, seperate track type.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: luces1

Date:3/20/2005 11:02:38 AM

I'm not sure if this is what is being talked about, but the biggest feature along this line would be being able to put multiple loops on the same track ala Sonar only because sometimes when working with just kick or snare loops, you can end up with 25-30 tracks of kick and snare in order to create randomness to the project. I realize that the Groove Editor addresses some of this(randomness), but multiple loops per track WOULD BE SWEET!!! luces

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:3/20/2005 1:09:05 PM

Acid---rewired---to vegas!!!!!

ED.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: B.C.

Date:3/21/2005 7:17:09 AM

I've been asking for this exact feature for years and years.

I've given up. And frankly - Re-wiring ACID to another host for this very basic feature is a total over-kill solution. I think the powers-that-be have it in their head that ACID will never have this functionality and that's that.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: dorkus

Date:3/21/2005 8:20:35 AM

Why can't every Acid track have a default loop (or one-shot)? You could still draw / cut / paste as you do, but if you want to drag another loop into a track, it'll take it.

I've been suggesting this to Cakewalk / Sonar as well. They need to implement two types of cut / paste: one with the pop-up window (how it is now), and one that will copy / cut / paste in just a single track. You could set which one was your default, and then hold down another key to use the other one.

Am I making sense? If Acid became a bit more like Sonar, or Sonar became a bit more like Acid, you'd have a perfect solution (in my world).

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/21/2005 9:00:56 AM

I'm down with a new track type as suggested above, but here's a related thing that kills me: If you duplicate a track, you can't interchange events between two identical tracks.

I'll duplicate a track to add another layer to a sound. Then, down the road, I make some changes to the original track, maybe using the chopper to come up with a new riff, and I paste it all over the place. Now I want the 'layer' track to have the same riff going in a few parts to match the original, but the only way to do is to recreate the riff again in the chopper and redo it manually, or duplicate the track again and delete my older copy. Not a big deal, unless I've already put a bunch of automation on the layer track or otherwise edited it.

I dunno, maybe I'm not complaining very well, but it seems a bit silly that identical audio events aren't interchangeable. Anyone with me?

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:3/21/2005 11:43:57 AM

I believe that starting with ACID 5, Loops are the only track type that are loaded into RAM; One-shots are now streamed from the hard drive.

There is no mistake that ACID is a media looper, just as there's no mistake that Vegas is a multitracker and Sound Forge is a digital audio editor. As such, each app in the family is supposed to be modular with each other (and even with other apps from other companies) rather than an "all-in-one" solution.

If you have a specific need for multitracking, then you should use Vegas and not rely on ACID. If you need whatever is in ACID, you could just render out and bring that into Vegas (and vice versa).

There's a problem as far as using different events from different sources on the same track: How is ACID supposed to know what you want to paint or draw in along the timeline for that track?

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/21/2005 12:50:56 PM

I have no problem with "modular" programs. The problem is that there is no integration between ACID and Vegas other than to suggest syncing with MIDI clock (30 year old technology) or rendering out and bringing into the other program. Well, having the needs of both programs in my productions, and having used them both for years now. I have to render out all the individual tracks in ACID so I can bring them into Vegas and rebuild. It is simply not correct to have a stereo rendering of all the ACID tracks and then to add and mix tracks in Vegas. When mixing, there is no interaction between the individual ACID tracks and Vegas tracks. You have to keep swapping between programs.

If there was any sort of decent integration between ACID and Vegas, then your solution would hold up. As such, it does not. There are technologies available such as Rewire which are not available in Vegas. If that is not possible, it would be great to be able to save an ACID project as Vegas project, or use an EDL to be able to import between each other.

Many users have the needs of both ACID and Vegas, and I think it would be possible to add an additional track type and still make it elegant. With this type of track, you would not use the "painting" or "drawing" of tracks. You would simply split, cut, and paste.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/21/2005 4:08:00 PM

H2000,
This is exactly what I had discussed in that other thread I think you joint in the Vegas Audio forum. Alls you need is 1.) Insert Audio Track and 2.) Insert Acid track. Audio tracks function and work like they do in Vegas, an Acid track functions like it does in Acid. It's not hard to conceive the idea since you already have, "insert audio track" and "insert video track" in Vegas, and "insert midi track" in Acid.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: H2000

Date:3/21/2005 5:25:28 PM

It sure doesn't seem that complicated. If Sony really wanted to capitalize from such a change they really should do it with ACID. It really has much more of a name with the audio community. Most people that I work with or talk with haven't heard of Vegas for Audio. It's simply not a known or widely used program for music production. Vegas would not suffer if such a change was implemented. Most of it's users are video users.

However, if it is deemed that this idea being discussed will impede too much on the ACID Paradigm for it's current users, then it really could be just another "flavor" of ACID. Call it ACID Producer or some other such name. It would allow users the choice of how much they need, versus how much they want to pay. Or, alternatively, keep it ACID Pro, and upgrade the level of ACID Music Studio.

I'm no marketing expert, but I really believe that this kind of feature would appeal to a much wider market than just the current one ACID enjoys. I think it could be done within the beauty of the ACID GUI, and I don't believe it would open up a whole "can of feature requests" and bloat the program. I also think that once implemented, many of the current users would find it very useful!

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/21/2005 8:17:54 PM

"If Sony really wanted to capitalize from such a change they really should do it with ACID. It really has much more of a name with the audio community. Most people that I work with or talk with haven't heard of Vegas for Audio. "

Exactly my thoughts, that's why you saw me say this in that Vegas thread:
"Peter Said:
"So - other than MIDI - what is Vegas not doing that it must do?"

Let's not narrow it down to Vegas, let's look at Acid also."

I think I've summarized my thoughts in this thread on how both Acid users and Vegas audio users feel:
http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=367782&Replies=96&Page=0

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: B.C.

Date:3/22/2005 2:06:10 PM

Between the 2 Rednroll threads I think the needs & wants of ACID & Vegas have been laid out pretty well.

It boils down to 2 key features missing in ACID:
- An 'audio track' type (w/perhaps multi-track recording, but I can give on that - personally).
- Enhanced MIDI editing (which seems fairly modest)

I think VEGAS is lost to us, frankly. My read is that whatever changes are required to make VEGAS follow tempo changes are a "big deal".

My take: right or wrong - Is that the "audio track" concept is being rejected by Sony for philosphical reasons, not technical reasons. And that makes me throw my hands up in disgust.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/22/2005 6:06:54 PM

I think Weevil's "dirty half-dozen" sums it up for Vegas:
1. REW: (also known as Rewire)
2. MID: (also known as MIDI)
3. VSi: (also known as VST/VSTi)
4. TPM: (also known as Tempo mapping)
5. ADM: (also known as ASIO Direct Monitoring)
6. FXF: (also known as FX Freeze

On the Acid side it would play out more like this:
1. Vegas style Tracks (encompassing Vegas style editing, multitrack recording, punchin ability and input monitoriing)
2. Ext Hardware controler support
3. Enhanced midi functionality
4. Vegas Edit details Window
5. FX freeze
6. ASIO Direct Monitoring

So it's a half dozen of one or a half dozen of the other.

Seems like a lot of cutting and pasting of code from one app to the other, some extra time working out the UI so they mesh, and then working out the bugs to make it all run together smoothly.

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:3/23/2005 10:54:17 AM

Vegas can use ACIDized loops for a particular tempo. Once an event is dropped onto a track, it stays that way. If you change the Vegas project's tempo and add the same loop again, the loop event changes to mirror the new tempo.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/24/2005 12:50:05 AM

"Vegas can use ACIDized loops for a particular tempo. Once an event is dropped onto a track, it stays that way. If you change the Vegas project's tempo and add the same loop again, the loop event changes to mirror the new tempo."

......and that's the irony of it all, aint it? That was the first thing I noticed the first time I opened Vegas 5, and of course my first question was, "why not go the one extra step and have it as user friendly like Acid functions with a global tempo slider adjustment?" I mean eccentially I can do most everything Acid does with loops in Vegas now, it just takes me 10 extra steps to get there.

So I have to agree with B.C's last commen and I think a lot of users feel the same wayt:
"My take: right or wrong - Is that the "audio track" concept is being rejected by Sony for philosphical reasons, not technical reasons. And that makes me throw my hands up in disgust."

Subject:RE: The ACID Paradigm

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/24/2005 6:18:51 AM

> "My take: right or wrong - Is that the "audio track" concept is being rejected by Sony for philosphical reasons, not technical reasons. And that makes me throw my hands up in disgust."

Well, at least they have a philosophy. You might not agree with it, but they are not willing to let ACID become a “kitchen sink” of features that turns into bloat-ware like so many other products on the market. I have to agree with Sony in that regard. Look what happened with MIDI. They opened that door and let a monster out. You think you can just add a small feature to keep your customers happy and now Sony is constantly being slammed for a weak MIDI implementation.

I would love to see an “Audio” track type with punch-in/out capabilities. Perhaps adding a new track type is the right way to address this. (I’ve been asking for punch-in/out for a long time) I think a lot of good ideas have been suggested in this thread. If we, the users and Sony, can find a way to add these features and remain within the philosophical paradigm of ACID, I believe Sony will implement them.

I would love to hear Peter’s thoughts on a new “AUDIO” track type. Does it even sound technically feasible then does it “fit” the ACID paradigm?

~jr