Subject:Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Posted by: juan2004

Date:3/11/2005 2:16:25 PM

Yes the topic of the subjet is right, as you read it.

Before been seen the MANY BUGS presents in Vegas 5 and Acid Pro 5, the question what comes to mind of one is: ""Sound Forge 8 and Vegas 6 will be many bugs in the first release as Acid 5??????""

I use Sound Forge since the version 4.5, Acid Pro since the version 1.0 and Vegas since version 3.0. And I rember what NEVER has MANY BIG BUGS, in the firts versions.

The answer to my question is perhaps the next: ""Each new product version comes with new and powerfull features, then to momento to compile the executable (*.exe) it not has TESTED MORE 500 TIMES to find the big bugs, well, I guess it ""

Think about the next sentence:

< Some day the "sons" will back to arms of their true "father" ? >

Sons = all products
Father = Sonic Foundy.


Juan

Bye and take care

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: MyST

Date:3/11/2005 2:23:54 PM

Uh... yeah.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/11/2005 7:02:42 PM

Well, explain us where you found bugs and how they annoyed you. Then maybe someone, or even maybe I will help you out.

And about your last thought : Acid is develloped by the same team since day 1 as far as we know. Sonic Foundry, or Sony, no matter.

I could also say that if you read this post then you've been waiting for an aswer, so tell us more about your point of view instead of finishing short affirmations with "bye".

I'm not trying to be mean or anything at all, just curious about your opinion and experience - seriously. And I'm not alone, everybody's concerned in this forum, which is a "help & learn from each other" community first.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: juan2004

Date:3/11/2005 7:46:36 PM

MMM!

Really each one of you don't understand the post.

Sorry for YOU
What pitty

The next time I will write more easy like for a boy 10 years of ago and you can to read it.

Bye

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Klirrfaktor

Date:3/12/2005 2:06:33 AM

well.... in fact its just the way you tell us that message, which is not nice. you just flame sony for not beeing that good as sonic foundry - imo that is not far from truth but its not a solution to post like this. maybe come up with some examples or something for what youd like to say.

personally im also dissapointed by acid 5 and also the time which it took to get released. same for the update and before acid 5 all products were pretty stable and slim.

for example i dont like the media manager and i dont really like sql server on my music pc! man. i mean.. this is a music program (not a datastore) and i never use the media manager at all so whats all that stuff about? i cannot even choose to NOT install that bloated nonsense and that is where it starts to differ from the quality before. beside of that its extremly unstable on my pc.

it might be that it has nothing to do with sony.. but somehow its obvious that things have changed in development since the takeover. so i think this topic is not just blahblah but it might have posted in a more intellectual way.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/12/2005 5:10:26 AM

It is obvious that Juan is not a native Engish speaker so you have to read the post with some leniency. He has a right to voice is disappointment with what he’s seeing. I don’t think anything has changed in development. It’s the same Sonic Foundry team in Madison.

If you remember, ACID Pro 4.0 had its share of problems in the beginning too. Some of it is due to 3rd party plugins because of the added VSTi support. That’s why products like Reason don’t support VSTi. It destabilizes their code and they would get a bad name because other VSTi vendors don’t know how to build software properly. Many ACID Pro 5.0 startup problems were due to misbehaving VSTi’s.

If there seems to be more problems as the releases progress, its because there are more functions to test and more functions mean more chances for bugs to be introduced. Adding Rewire device support required a significant rework of the sound engine because it had to be running constantly to accommodate Rewire. This was a major change and the team pulled it off quite well.

The quality of ACID has little to do with Vegas or Sound Forge. Different teams, different code base. Sony software is just as solid as Sonic Factory software would have been at this stage in development. ACID Pro 4 is on the 4F release, ACID Pro 5 is on the 5A release, give it a chance to settle in. Sony knows there are more bugs to squash. It will be solid as a rock just like all other sony/sofo products in time.

~jr

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: billybk

Date:3/12/2005 6:03:28 AM

Some of you all have a very short memory. The initial ACID Pro 4, 4.0 release was a disaster. Many problems with VSTi, MIDI & ASIO implementations, which were all relatively new and needed to be ironed out. ACID 4 ended up having (6) maintance updates, the last being ACID 4f. Shoot ACID 3 had (7) updates. We are only on the first update for ACID 5, for cripes sake. Out of the gate ACID 5 was a lot more stable than many previous ACID versions, IMO. As for as the length of time between ACID 4 & 5 ( 26 months), I agree it was a long time to be in limbo. But, remember Sonic Foundry was in financial limbo too (basically bankrupt), until the Sony buyout and nobody new what was going to happen with future ACID development. If it was not for Sony, stepping up to the plate, there would probably be no ACID 5, at all, IMO.

I say better late than never!


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: MyST

Date:3/12/2005 6:17:38 AM

Very well put, Billy Buck!

Mario

PS: Juan, since you're so good at copy/paste, here's my reply from the other forum you posted this in.
-------------------------------


Here are some updates for you to look at, all done under Sonic Foundry.
I guess we've got a few more updates "allowed" for Acid Pro 5.0 before calling it buggier than SoFo released versions, no?


ACID DJ Update 2.0d
ACID DJ Update 3.0g
ACID Hip-Hop Update 2.0d
ACID Latin Update 2.0d
ACID Music Update 3.0g
ACID Pro Update 4.0f
ACID Pro Update 3.0g
ACID Rock Update 2.0d
ACID Techno Update 2.0d
ACID Techno Update 3.0g
CD Architect Update 4.0g
DVD Architect Update 1.0d
Sound Forge Update 6.0e
Sound Forge Update 4.5h
Sound Forge Update 4.0e
Sound Forge XP Update 4.0d
Sound Forge XP Update 4.5h
Vegas Audio LE Update 2.0h
Vegas Audio Update 2.0h
Vegas Video Update 2.0h
Video Capture Update 2.0h

What's that now? Sonic Foundry used to get it perfect the first time? I guess they just wanted to waste money getting all the way to "h".

What you need to understand is that the developers (the very same ones that you hold in such esteem under Sonic Foundry) work very hard at getting the pre-released/released product as stable as possible.
If you want to question their dedication to putting out the best product possible, that's your problem. People who have dealt with them maybe a little more than you have, would never question that. DSE could probably tell you more about that since I think he knows them best.

Mario

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/12/2005 9:19:24 AM

Since he has the need to post the same message in all the forums I therefore should reply to all of them.

Has all of these products that you've mentioned expanded with many new features? Has this inturn caused them to be much more complex from where they started? Doesn't additional complexity of a product open the doors to their to be an increase in the amount of bugs present both in changes to old features and new features? If you expect the Sony media software products to evolve with expanded features, and to work flawlessly on every PC configuration system out there, you have no grasp on reality and obviously have NO experience in developing a product. Sure Sony could spend years testing their software on every system out there to minimize the bugs, then you would be in here complaining that you don't have the latest and greatest gizmo in Vegas/Acid/Forge, like you also do. It's a double edged sword they have to walk.

If your expectations are that every first release doesn't have any bugs, then you should look into purchasing a Protools "turn key" system. Protools therefore designates, what sound card hardware you have to purchase. What type of MAC computer it has to run on and what MAC OS and how everything is configured on that PC. Thus, you're buying the hardware and the software that was tested to be compatible with each other. So go buy that system and keep your ignorant statements to yourself.

BTW: Vegas 5 was one of the most solid releases to date as far as the amount of bugs and the complexity of the program of doing professional video and audio work. Sound Forge 7.0 was pretty solid too with only a few minor bugs as I'm aware of. Compare those to a new Sonar 4.0 release, or a new Wavelab 5.0 release and realize how ignorant and without backing substance your statements are.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: cyberbeat

Date:3/12/2005 10:22:51 AM

Yeah I think Sony will never have a stable product rite outta de box and I will never be satisfied wit a good release.Many bugs wil exist 2 cause me 2 have 2 switch 2 another program that isn't Sony because if is isn't sony then it's more stasble.Sory to be so negative but this is the reality in my world. Thank me.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: billybk

Date:3/12/2005 11:51:19 AM

Yeah I think Sony will never have a stable product rite outta de box and I will never be satisfied wit a good release.Many bugs wil exist 2 cause me 2 have 2 switch 2 another program that isn't Sony because if is isn't sony then it's more stasble.Sory to be so negative but this is the reality in my world. Thank me.


Well, I guess you won't be buying any audio software again then, Sony or otherwise! I've got news for you, they ALL have bugs, especially when it is a new release. I am not excusing it, but that is just the way it is. Ableton Live 4 was released 8 months ago and they just released another (among many) bugfix update, 4.11. Samplitude 7 went up to 7.23a in updates, SONAR 3 went up to 3.11, Nuendo up to 7.22 and on and on.......I am certain these were not bug free updates. Look at the long list of the bug fixes in these other apps, you would be amazed. I remember one of the Cakewalk's lead developers, it was either Ron Kuper or Greg Hendershott, was recently asked on the SONAR forum, "why they would not release a bug free SONAR", by a disgruntled user. The reply, and I am paraphrasing, was they "could possibly release a bug free release, but it would be 5-7 years between updates and cost thousands of dollars for users to update", because of the vast amount of time and costs (R & D and extensive beta testing ) involved to totally insure with 100% accuracy a bug free release.
Most users are not going to wait 5-7 years (cripes, people were having fits that ACID 5 took 26 months), and wanna pay thousands of dollars for a bug free update. Companies would quickly go out of business, as fickle users looked elsewhere for their instant gratifications and cheap $149.00 update fees.


Billy Buck

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: vitalforce2

Date:3/12/2005 12:08:42 PM

Hola Juan and cyber. The world it grows like the flower see? You have not bugs but buds.

In other words: The early 2000s are a time of intense software development of multimedia products and developers in the past 10 years have become better able than before, to mesh their technologies together, hardware with software and such. But there are always points that don't fit together perfectly because someone is always building a better way to do something or obtain truer fidelity of image or sound.

So be patient grasshopper. And also know that you have logged on to a very unusual forum. There are a lot of professionals who often contribute their insights, so if you behave yourself and talk to people with respect you might learn something that helps you.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: billybk

Date:3/12/2005 12:37:29 PM

Oh, here is the actual Cakewalk post, which came from Ron Kuper, last October, about releasing a 100% bug free release. Actually, Cake said it would only take about (4) years between releases, but SONAR would actually cost around $10,000!

Yes, there is an added cost $$$$, for 100% bug free! Hey, you would not have to worry about any more bug fix updates, just a one time $10,000 license fee. :-P Now are you willing to pay for it. :-)

Oh, and I can bet that there would be a USB dongle/ ilok system, ala Nuendo 3/Samplitude 8 to protect such a big $$$$ investment too.

Just wanted to get my facts straight,

Billy Buck


We could add 100% bug free as a requirement to SONAR. As result, our product cycle would probably be something like every 4 years instead of every 1 year (for the same new features), and SONAR would probably cost $10,000 instead of a few hundred.

Ron Kuper
VP/Engineering, Cakewalk

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/13/2005 3:32:08 AM

I think Juan doesn't deserve our replyies. He should instead try to workout his issues. That's a very childish behaviour imo. Let it be...

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/14/2005 12:14:52 PM

yeah, he could ask nicer, but, really, what is the deal? The Sony team can be helpful, but they also come off as pretty flip to me sometimes, and the whole crew seems to be on vacation at the moment. I have installed the update, and there are still a lot of bugs in Acid Pro 5, I am regretting paying $150 for an upgrade that crashes so often it's nearly usuable at times. My undo buffer doesn't work properly, I can't scroll without my fingers crossed, rerouting busses while playing is a big no-no, and trying new plug-in is like a blind leap of faith (usually met with a face full of rocks).

I confess that I am not a computer expert, so I've asked several times how I can help Sony identify the problems that keep occurring on my machine while using AP5 (ie is there an error log I can send, what screenshots help?)...I've gotten no replies.

The fact that the scrolling issue did not appear in the list of known issues suggests to me that maybe Sony thinks we are all making this stuff up. A brilliant conspiracy, to be sure...

So what's up Sony? How can I help you remedy this problem?

PS...There might've been 6 updates to 4.0, but it never gave me any problems like this.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/14/2005 12:34:18 PM

If you post your system specs to your profile perhaps we could help determine what might be the problem. ACID Pro 5 is very stable for a lot of us so that suggests that system configuration may contribute partly to the problem.

I’m not saying there aren’t any bugs left, but mD and I gave ACID a pretty good workout when we wrote the Instant ACID book and I’m just finishing up an ACID training DVD and it’s not crashing for me.

BTW, while making the ACID training DVD, I’m running Vegas video capture in the background capturing everything I’m doing in ACID through my graphics card via a Canopus AV capture device back into to Vegas. So I’m capturing 25MB/sec DV25 via Firewire while demoing what ACID can do without skipping a beat (or a frame). I’d call that pretty solid software from Sony if you ask me.

~jr

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/14/2005 1:50:34 PM

ok, cheers JohnnyRoy, I posted my system specs, didn't realize it was a separate setting for the forums. I'm happy that the program is working well for yourself and others, wish I could get it to do the same for me. I've seen enough talk around to know I'm not alone with these issues though...for an interesting discussion of Acid Pro 5, you might check this thread on the KVR forums:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73180&highlight=acid+pro+5

Meanwhile, is Sony in da house?

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/14/2005 3:05:44 PM

I just checked your previous posts to see what problems you were having but while in the ACID 5 Goin Crazy thread you said:

As for the crashing, I'll start a new thread if that's the most appropriate route,

You never did. So all we know is that ACID is crashing when you scroll and according to your profile:

Video Card: dunno, but not onboard

We don’t know what kind of video card you have. Right-click anywhere on the Windows desktop and select Properties > Settings and it should tell you.

Whatever it is I would make sure you have the latest drivers for it. Try turning off video acceleration. Try turning off Windows XP theme support. Disconnect from the Internet and turn off your anti-virus to see if that’s causing problems.

Also for your VSTi problems, there are a lot of bad VSTi’s out there. You can’t blame ACID for that. Unfortunately, the only way to weed out the bad ones is to rename your VSTi directory, create a new one and slowly add each one back. Tedious but effective.

I see you have a Gateway computer with probably lots of little programs running in the background for your printer and sensing if you’ve inserted a smart media card from your camera, etc. all trying to be user friendly and all fighting with each other (and ACID) for resources. Any one of these could be causing problems. Try killing all unnecessary background tasks. This is why I build my own computers. I only put on what I need, not what some computer manufacturer thinks I need.

I realize that all of this is not easy if you are not computer savvy. Unfortunately, most computers from big manufacturers are configured for web surfing and word processing and not audio recording.

Personally, I would call Sony tech support on the phone and ask them to help you with your problem. That’s the only sure fire way to get it fixed.

~jr

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/14/2005 7:36:07 PM

I'ld also suggest you visit WWW.MUSICXP.NET. Start with the top buttons on the left and work your way down. Even if you are intimidated and don't understand most of the advice there don't be afraid to jump in and start learning. This site basically walks you through on how to configure your PC for audio. And yes you should highly consider reformating your hard drive and reinstall Windows and follow their installation instructions As JR mentioned that Dell wasn't set up for audio and probably has a bunch of junk running in the background, which can only lead to problems when running Acid.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/14/2005 8:15:04 PM

Thanks, guys I appreciate the suggestions, but I might've sold myself short though, I do know a little about computers and I have configured my computer according to the basic wisdom for running music apps on Win XP (the 25 or so golden rules), no internet connection on my music computer, no spyware or virus protection running while I'm using acid, and all the bells and whistles on XP are to a minimum. I've posted my concerns in enough places to make my issues known (and so have several others) and I am glad to know that my fellow-forum goers are there to help, but where's Sony at? I guess you're right, I need to call them, but their business hours are basically the same time I work so it's not easy.

Sorry if I'm bitter Sony, but you also recently sent me a demo disc for my playstation that summarily erased both my memory cards...how bout making it up with a bit of help gettin AP 5 running proper?

Turns out my video card is an ATI Radeon 300 X SE w/128mb PCI-something or rather...I'll update my specs asap.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/14/2005 8:17:55 PM

"Also for your VSTi problems, there are a lot of bad VSTi’s out there. You can’t blame ACID for that. Unfortunately, the only way to weed out the bad ones is to rename your VSTi directory, create a new one and slowly add each one back. Tedious but effective."

Speaking of that, why the heck can't I delete a plug-in within the freakin' plug-in manager? that is annoying. at least make it so acid doesn't shot it anymore, if you can't delete it for some reason.

It's extra agitating because it always shows 'delete' in the right click menu, but it's always grayed out...

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/14/2005 9:36:00 PM

> It's extra agitating because it always shows 'delete' in the right click menu, but it's always grayed out...

You can’t disable the plug once you use it because its already loaded in memory and there is no architected way to unload it. (that’s what the little lock symbol shows) So you have to exit ACID, restart and then disable the plug. After that it shouldn’t show up in the VSTi menu anymore.

~jr

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/15/2005 6:23:03 AM

>>why the heck can't I delete a plug-in within the freakin' plug-in manager?
<<

This is not the purpose of the plugin manager. The detete context menu item is to allow you to delete any folders that you have created. However, it could be confusing to some. I will bring it up at the next ACID dev meeting for discussion.

To disable ACID from using a particular plugin - VST or VSTi - you need to goto the Prefs page for VST Effects or VST Instruments.

You uncheck the VST that you no longer want available to ACID.

If there is a lock turned on, this means you have used this plugin at one point with in your current session. We can't permit you to disable the plugin because of the possibility that an undo or redo action could attempt to recreate the plugin.

Peter

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/15/2005 7:12:40 AM

"but you also recently sent me a demo disc for my playstation that summarily erased both my memory cards..."

Ahhh yeah, I'm aware of that one. I had to wait an extra month to get my new Socom 2 map on that demo disc. Are you a Socom 2 player? Totally 2 different divisions of Sony though.

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/15/2005 8:59:50 AM

hey RednRoll, haven't tried Socom 2, heard lots good about it though...I was about 100 hours deep in the new Grand Theft Auto when I got Sony's little gift. And then a couple days later, a nondescript postcard alerting me of what I already knew. Merry Christmas, eh?

And my pet peeve has gotta be corporations like Sony playin like different divisions are separate companies with no ties...I wish individuals could get away with that: I actually don't owe you any money Mr. Bill Collector, drunken Illogical must've ordered that item, and he won't be in til next Friday night. No, sorry I can't pass on the message, you'll have to speak to him directly.

Whatever, I get a reply from Sony about the plug-in manager, but no one's got anything to say about the bugs that keep bringing Acid Pro to a grinding halt. Pro 4 was never this unstable, even with the initial release (which I used without updating for quite a while).

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:3/15/2005 12:24:15 PM

Whatever, I get a reply from Sony about the plug-in manager, but no one's got anything to say about the bugs that keep bringing Acid Pro to a grinding halt. Pro 4 was never this unstable, even with the initial release (which I used without updating for quite a while).

Shoulda been here during the initial release of ACID Pro 4. It was quite interesting (as it always is). :)

Sorry to hear about your PS2 troubles; I'm glad SPD's media software division is kept separate, because what used to be Sonic Foundry's team is now SPD's and remained where they are. We lucked. Sony probably could've trashed the entire team and replaced it with a clueless one. Then I'd be upset.

-Iacobus

Subject:RE: Vega 6 and Sound Forge 7 will be MANY BUGS LIKE Acid Pro 5 ???????

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/16/2005 7:05:28 AM

well, to be fair, I should say that I did get a friendly email yesterday from someone at Sony, so hopefully my days of contstant crashing will soon be behind me.

Iacobus, I'm sure there were some issues with the 4.0 release, but I used it out of the box for about 6 months before I got any of the updates and never had any troubles like I'm having now (and when it did crash, it almost always let me save before it died). Admittedly, I probably wasn't pushing it quite as hard back then, but I also have a higher-spec computer these days.