Subject:Vegas 5's features in Acid Pro 6... Just a very tiny few things to do.

Posted by: Zacchino

Date:2/23/2005 8:17:28 PM

I do not need a complete multitracker, I just need Acid to add some little Audio and Midi indispensable functions, but with Acid Pro’s easy/logical way.

Maybe that if I explain myself a little bit more clearly, you’ll better understand my needs, and maybe yours. This post is not to be taken as a request, but as a simple explanation :


-No popup window for recording

-Per-track crossfades, with the Crossfade type choice when right-clicking the crossing area… as in Vegas 5.

-Normalise (ala Vegas 5 : Simple left click + “Normalize”)

-loop recording with a simple "Blend / Replace / Create new sub-track for each loop segment" switcher.

-Ability to drop a marker ("m") while recording

-Punch-in Recording ala Vegas 5 (which is amazing).

-Display waveform / midi notes preview while recording (as Vegas 5 does while recording audio… Should do the same for midi though).

-In-place midi editor, with "Enable Snapping Notes to Specified Scale" and "Quantize" buttons appearing in the top toolbar when the in-place midi track is selected. While the other main window’s "Enable Snapping", "Draw Tool", "Selection Tool", "Paint Tool" and "Erase Tool" buttons are just behaving as in the Piano Roll.

-By the way : The "Paint Tool" of the main sequencer window should have the same submenus of Piano Roll's... That would be so fantastic for audio clips.

-Ability to root a Bus, a VSTi or a Rewire Device through an Assignable FX (showing a second Fx slider right beside the Output Fader of the Bus/VSTi 's mix slice in the Mixer Window), with a "Pre/Post Volume" switch button.

-Envelope Automation Recording : ala Vegas 5 (which is so intuitive). Volume, Pan, and Fx curves for both Audio Tracks, and Bus Tracks.

-An arm for record button, input selector (stereo, left or right), and this great meter that shows us when we’re peaking when the track is armed…

-a “Fine Tune” (from -1 to 1 semitone) horizontal fader for audio tracks that aren’t pitchshifted or beatmapped.

-Mouse’s Wheel function little improvement for both main sequencer and Piano Roll :
Actually in Acid Pro 5.0 :
Wheel up/down = Zoom in/out horizontally
Shift + Wheel up/down = Scroll horizontally
Ctrl + Wheel up/Down = Scroll vertically
Ctrl + Shift + Wheel up/down = move cursor
…So, it’s all perfect and very useful, except the fact that they just forgot that one :
Alt + Wheel up/down = Zoom in/out vertically

-A “standalone” separate docking window of the Media Manager with its drag and drop abilities as in Vegas 5.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/23/2005 8:28:49 PM

Since 90% of what you want is already in Vegas (by your own admission), it sounds like all you need is to have MIDI support added Vegas and you’d be all set.

I can live with that! ;-D

~jr

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:2/24/2005 8:46:49 AM

Yeah maybe you're right. Maybe that I need Vegas with Midi support, rewire, and native VST support.

But I don't need video at all. While vegas has a big part of its engine dedicated to Video edition.

That's why I think Acid is more appropriate in having these features.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:2/24/2005 10:21:29 AM

Just like Vegas is used differently by different users, so is ACID Pro. Some use Vegas in its audio multitracking capacity without having to touch video.

Some use ACID Pro without having to touch its MIDI. Some don't even use ACID in a musical capacity, preferring to use its looping feature to create soundbeds.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD! Now!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:2/24/2005 8:20:50 PM

I'm aware of the different use that users can make with Acid or Vegas.

The fact is, that I am pushing Acid very far for my production needs. And all the listed features I'm needing are just the best thing I can hope for Acid 6. If I bought vegas I would have cryied in the Vegas-Audio forum for all the features that Acid has of course.

I'm just pointing out that Sony, with Vegas and Acid, have the power to make an all-in-one audio production software, and I just don't get why it's taking them so much time to realize it.

I'm not disappointed from Acid 5, of course not. It justs angers me to see that they're very close to make this happen. But they don't.

And they're never talking about it down here, it' seems to be a taboo subject.

I know that if it slows down my production, I'll get over it and leave once for good this software solutions. I really don't want this to happen, that's why I'm exhausting everyone with these posts. I just want answers for the future about all these features. And I don't think the competitors will care until it's realized. So I don't buy this "keep it secret for the sales" thing.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:2/27/2005 8:06:59 PM

I've just been testing Vegas 5... Well, I love it, and I'm disappointed when I see all the little things they could have easily added to Acid Pro 5 :

-Auto-hide docking area
-Plugin Manager docking window with its drag & drop feature
-Crossfades
-All these Multitrack abilities.
-HUI Support

SonyTeam, I donno what to say. I'm disappointed to see that you didn't work on implementing these great features you've already been working on Vegas 5. It's not nice at all.

Before testing Vegas 5, I was crying out for all this in Acid 5, without knowing you already had these codes within Vegas. Now that I'm aware of this, I just feel very disappointed.

I really, really hope you'll catch up all this with Acid 6 now, because if you don't, then I'll really think I'm working with a constricted program for marketing issues. Which is not fair to pro customers like me (and many others that already had already left the game I guess).
And you know how pro customers dislike beeing treated as beginners.

By the way, Peter; remember that post asking us if we used Vegas along with Acid... Well now it's our turn to ask you why something doesn't allow you to make this happen, in Acid Pro 6.

This is my last post on this subject. I hope you'll take it seriously.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: gjn

Date:2/28/2005 4:19:08 AM

amen

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/28/2005 5:16:55 AM

Hopefully you are submitting these to the product suggestion page so they become an “official” user request. ;-)

~jr

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:2/28/2005 5:33:12 AM

Done, but they won't care :'(...
As far as I'm the only one requesting this.

They didn't pay any attention on these features for AP5's official feature request post. At least for AP5 (which IMHO is a rushed/marketing-needs release - that I love)

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/28/2005 5:48:41 AM

> At least for AP5 (which IMHO is a rushed/marketing-needs release - that I love)

I believe you are correct. Sony understood that Sonic Foundry let too much time pass between releases and so they limited the new features in order to get the product to market quicker. Now that they are back on track, I’m hoping ACID 6 will include many of the features we hoped would be in ACID 5 (although they did an outstanding job of getting the big hitters like ReWire device support in there for 5)

~jr

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:2/28/2005 11:16:02 AM

I believe that Joel and Peter suggested many times that there's only so much they can do at once in getting features that users want in a particular version and making it stable at the same time. You just can't satisfy everyone all the time.

Everyone also has to remember that each app has its own paradigm. Vegas is a multitracker, while ACID Pro is a media looper and Sound Forge is a digital audio editor.

(If anyone's noticed, CD Architect is going to be included with Sound Forge 8 as a separate app. Rather than try and integrate a Red Book CD mastering tool into Sound Forge, it's a far better idea, IMHO, to keep it separate and allow Sound Forge to do its job without complicating things.)

Let it be known that I do not want a Swiss-Army-knife-type, all-in-one app. I'd rather have an app that concentrates on a specific task. Many have tried all-in-one apps only to come up with interfaces that resemble something akin to a space shuttle operating panel. (Yuck.)

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD! Now!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/28/2005 12:23:07 PM

>>-Plugin Manager docking window with its drag & drop feature

ACID 5 has this.

>>-Crossfades
>>-All these Multitrack abilities

ACID is not a multitrack.

>>-HUI Support
None of our products support the HUI natively. Vegas supports the Mackie Control Universal - a very different device than the HUI in both design and protocol. The HUI is also discontinued, so there is not a compelling reason to support it.

ACID and Vegas are two completely different products with different focus. ACID is not a multitrack, and has never been presented as one. Vegas is our audio multitrack.

It is not just a simple matter to "drop in" a Vegas feature into ACID. They both work very differently and have completely different focus and targeted users.

They are what they are today.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/1/2005 12:58:44 AM

>ACID is not a multitrack, and has never been presented as one.
>Vegas is our audio multitrack.

Vegas = Video+Multitrack.
Acid = Audio+Midi.

Where's the missing Multitrack+Midi app then ?
Let's call it Sony Acidgas.... err... No... Ok I suck at naming apps.

Anyway, thanx Peter for lightning my confusion. My vision of Acid's evolution isn't Sony's. I guess I was the only one thinking this way.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Weevil

Date:3/1/2005 6:06:23 AM

>ACID and Vegas are two completely different products with different focus.

Yeah, but the question is wether or not these two paradigms are actually relevant to users anymore.

No doubt there are some who live on the two edges.

But you can’t help but feel there are huge amount more people in the middle who take neither program seriously because of the straightjackets that are put on them.


...Just a reminder why you don’t post very much. PH :-)

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/1/2005 6:49:07 AM

>>Where's the missing Multitrack+Midi app then ?
Simple. Sony doesn't make one.

I don't know how else to say it.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Ben 

Date:3/1/2005 7:07:20 AM

Well, I guess we'd like to know <why> Sony doesn't make one.

The demand is there, no doubt, as we all love the products, but midi really is the missing link. And it's the link that sends people to your competitor's software.

Ben

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:3/1/2005 10:38:17 AM

The demand is there, no doubt, as we all love the products, but midi really is the missing link. And it's the link that sends people to your competitor's software.

Not me. I almost never touch MIDI, save for sending MIDI CC/patch change commands. I'm still pretty much entirely ensconced in digital audio (and some multimedia). Soft synths are cool, but I doubt I can get anything close to that raw, live feel of a distorted guitar.

I'd bet the multimedia authors gravitate more towards SPD's apps due to their video/multimedia support. I've always felt the other apps from other parties were more geared towards the musician more than anything else.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/1/2005 10:44:58 AM

Why?

Simple: A business decision.

This is a market segment we have chosen not to be a part of.

There isn't much more to it than that. We know the markets, the potential for revenue, and what it would take to compete.

WRT to MIDI:

I had the pleasure to watch a team of composers and engineers last week work with ACID's MIDI. Sure, there are limitations, but you'd have never known this by watching and hearing what this group of guys do with ACID. They use the MIDI and audio in ways we never concieved of. They produce not only quality, but quantity.

There is enough about ACID that is great to them, that they refuse to let anything get in their way. To them it is not about what we don't do or what they other guys do have, but what ACID lets them get done.

They have everything that you might conisder to be "our competitors", but they live in ACID.

Our MIDI is what it is today. Some work with it, others try to make it work in a way it was never intended. From what I have seen, working with it can produce amazing results.

Your milage may vary, of course, depending upon whether you see the glass as half empty or half full.

Besides, our products never stand still.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/1/2005 11:28:39 AM

To expand on Peter’s point. I use MIDI all the time, but I’m a performing musician. I don’t use the Piano Roll Editor except to make loops clean when there are count-off gaps. I play the parts and I record what I play. The very last thing I want a computer to do is quantize away the nuances of my live performance.

So it’s not just a matter of using MIDI, but HOW you use MIDI. I use MIDI just like an audio recorder. So I really don’t care that much about enhancements for MIDI editing because I don’t really edit MIDI. It’s all about how you use it.

Besides, if there is something I want to do with MIDI like automate a MIDI parameter over a track (which ACID doesn’t do), I do that part in Tracktion and just ReWire ACID to it.

~jr

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/1/2005 11:49:25 AM

"Why? Simple: A business decision. This is a market segment we have chosen not to be a part of. There isn't much more to it than that. We know the markets, the potential for revenue, and what it would take to compete."

The above is some pretty straight talk and it's appreciated. However, where does that leave the rest of us who have been begging and screaming for the Multitrack+Midi app (or at least Acid with midi comparable to the Sonar's, Cubase's, and Logic's of the world) for years? I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who has stuck with Acid for two reasons:

1) Acid at it's core is great at what it does (ease of use, user friendly interface, fantastic looping capabilities).

2) The hope of the ever elusive next version of Acid finally having what I've been asking for (which for me is full midi capability).

I thought that was going to be the case when Acid 4 was released. When I saw that Acid 4 was going to have midi included, I was elated until I actually purchased the product and saw how (IMVHO) severely limited the midi was when compared to other pro apps on the market. I learned my lesson (which is why I haven't jumped off the bridge with Acid 5), but I still continue using Acid for the two reasons above.

However you made it very clear that Sony is not interested in the Multitrack+Midi market at this time. Does the same go for the addition of pro level midi of the sort found in the other apps mentioned above into Acid Pro? If so, just flat out tell us that Sony isn't going to do it. That way those of us who care can weigh what's more important to us (the pros of Acid vs. not getting the multitrack and midi straightened out) and make an educated decision on whether or not to stick with Sony products in that regard. I don't think a flat out DEFINITIVE answer is too much to ask. Your "our products never stand still" remark pulled the rug out from under the DEFINITIVE part of your answer.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/1/2005 12:07:48 PM

Johnnyroy: I think we all understand the point of it being HOW you use midi. However, wouldn't it make much more sense to provide full blown midi with all the bells and whistles and then let the user's decide how to use it (i.e. you recording with the auto quantize function off and myself recording with it on)? As you stated in your post, midi editing enhancements aren't a big deal for you, but they are for some of us. They don't even have to include it in the program. It's been suggested many times here to simply dump the midi out of Acid and develop a midi only companion to Acid that can be rewired to it. That way Acid can do what it does and those of us that want full blown midi can have it without having to have another full app rewired to Acid to bog our systems down. Understand? As for me, all I want is a definitive answer of "Yes...we are going to do it" or "No...we aren't going to do" instead of wondering whether or not Sony:

1) Doesn't hear us
2) Hears us and is working on it
3) Hears us and simply isn't going to do it

Any of the above is fine with me just as long as I know one way or the other.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/1/2005 5:35:01 PM

>This is a market segment we have chosen not to be a part of.

This doesn't sounds like Sony's philosophy (not jumping in competition).
Anyway, this doesn't seem like business, but much more like a budget restriction to me.

About Peter's WRT on MIDI, well what you told us might be how most of the hardcore users are using the midi in Acid. Acid had brang their users to do a lot with not much. That's a skill, that's art. So I'm not surprised at all about what you saw, and I'm sure it was amazing.

You guys saw some of my project layout, and pointed out the incredible number of tracks in a song... Well, that might sound fantastic/ridiculous to you, but to me it's just the pain resulting from not including all these "multitrack" abilities.

I do manage to bring a project from A to Z WITHOUT any loop, word. Without making "loop-based" music (which is not an advantage or a hype anymore nowdays).

When I'm asking for multitrack audio + midi in Acid, I'm not being a child needing a new toy, but I'm just warning you guys that one day or another, you'll do it, and you'll be (I don't hope so) far away from competition (except in the workflow, and ease of use... But that's it).

From now on, I think that Acid Pro 6 won't sound pro to me (and many other trust me) without these indispensable features.

Remember, even competitors will catch up all the new looping tools and widgets of Acid. So it's now the time or never to think more about Acid's future.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/1/2005 6:14:22 PM

>>If so, just flat out tell us that Sony isn't going to do it.

I can't answer this. If I promised anything one way or the other and we didn't deliver, I would upset many people.

We always improve our products from one version to the next. Each has a specific focus. ACID 5 was about Loops better and faster and interconnectivity through ReWire. The groove technology we introduced is unique.

ACID is heading in the right direction and that ACID 5 is a serious tool with - IMHO - a great workflow that nobody has matched.

We are very aware of what our users and the industry expect. ACID 5 is a great tool for many users, however, we can't be everything to everybody as there are too many everythings on everybody's list.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/1/2005 6:34:54 PM

Every business has to choose when and where to compete such that it makes business sense. All resource expenditures must be balanced by the market and sales potential.

There is no promise that if we build it, they will come. We know what sets us apart and we refuse to comprimise that just to throw in the kitchen sink that others vendors tend to do.

Being smart vs reactionary is a far better way to survive in any business. We play to our stengths. We never have, and unlikely will, played the bullet item for bullet item game the other vendors play.

We build what we build, and believe we offer a viable set of tools to accomplish many different tasks.

We always improve and advance our products with each release. We think about our future every day and know what has to be done. We are doing it.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Weevil

Date:3/1/2005 7:36:54 PM

Simple: A business decision.

This is a market segment we have chosen not to be a part of.

They must be some pretty crazy numbers you and the Sony folk are looking at there big guy.

From an outsiders point of view it is impossible to understand how you are making them add up.

...But, that said...many times I have been in perfectly logical business situations that look utterly insane from the outside... (...and come to think of it...most of those times were while I was working at Sony...)

So I can do nothing but accept at face value there is a deeper logic to the decisions that have been made.

But I do wish you would show just a little compassion to us poor plebs who fall between the cracks of your applications.

If neither application is going to fully ‘crossover’ then surely you have to let us rewire them together?

Otherwise it’s just cruel and unusual punishment to those of us who are addicted to your delightful interface -but- don’t fit 100% into either paradigm.

...And there has got to be a huge amount of people who fit into that middle category.

Subject:Sony range & MIDI

Reply by: Vegas - The Big Gamble

Date:3/2/2005 5:53:43 AM

Well.. I feel like we're getting somewhere now!

It's not what we were hoping to hear but this seems to suggest that we're wasting time in begging for the wunder-app that combines Vegas and ACID (although I'm aware "full-blown" MIDI sequencing is not present in either). I imagine handling MIDI and processing video stream & effects at the same time is probably a programmer's biggest nightmare in terms of timing accuracy, so maybe that in itself is a good reason to not try!

I had for too long hoped that Vegas would one day sprout MIDI sequencing, simply because I'm sick of using other s/w and importing to Vegas (and I find MTC synching very unsatisfactory). The fact that the interfaces look and feel so similar means we imagine it's all similar "under the bonnet" too and this leads to that frustration of it being so easy to actually *imagine* how it would be if there were MIDI tracks in Vegas.

Furthermore the fact that other apps do audio *and* MIDI mean we expect Vegas should do it too. But it would be hypocritical to complain that Vegas doesn't do "everything" when it's such a big frustration for many people that their old favourite MIDI sequence now wants and tries to do everything - and isn't very good at it.

So since Vegas has been clearly defined as an NLE - and ACID is not supposed to perform a full MIDI sequencer role to satisfy those who need a DAW, I think many people would now just appreciate a little guidance in the best solution we can have for our needs.

I understand how video users can live without certain fancy features in Vegas because there's good software around to do them and you can easily import the results in a standard video format.

But with MIDI, as we know, all the sequencers want to handle your audio too so they are often fighting for ASIO drivers and MIDI ports if the apps are both open. (I used to have to close ProTools every time I wanted to use Vegas otherwise the control surface wouldn't work - now I have Nuendo and I have to close that otherwise I can't record in Vegas!).

On top of that the importing stage, being about a number of tracks and not just a single file, never seems workable and you end up having to bounce tracks individually from zero so they'll line up. I now use Nuendo for MIDI, even though I also own ProTools TDM - but until Vegas has OMF support, ProTools with its all-mono audio and real-time bounce is just not an option. At least with Nuendo I can bounce each stereo track quickly.

So, Peter now here's a question which I do hope can be answered here (despite being in an ACID forum this thread is clearly related to the whole product range and a certain type of user).

Can you/Sony please recommend a way that those used to working with the all in one DAWs can stick with Vegas for their audio and do their MIDI elsewhere? Although you are, of course, not obliged to make any particular product recommendations I am sure there must be some thoughts on what sits best with Vegas.

Or.. maybe you feel, as I do, that there *isn't* an ideal solution as yet. Personally I feel there's a great opportunity for a 3rd party to design a MIDI sequencer which handles soft synths and has Rewire for synching and pushing out the audio (not far off Reason itself, but with external MIDI outs and support for other soft-synths). Above all an app that doesn't try to be an all in one.. and that could seamlessly integrate with Vegas via Rewire in the future.

Regards

Drew

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/2/2005 5:54:40 AM

>>They must be some pretty crazy numbers you and the Sony folk are looking at there big guy.

What do you believe the big picture "numbers" are for this space?

>>...And there has got to be a huge amount of people who fit into that middle category.

Not to be difficult, but quantify "huge amount".

I have not stated that we will or wont do anything specifically. I never have and never will. I will merely state again that we improve and advance all of our products with each new release.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/2/2005 8:15:25 AM

Peter: Let me start by saying that you are an incredibly valuable asset to everyone who uses this forum (and even those who don't). I don't believe that people really realize how much work you put in here and I don't think you get the credit that you deserve, so from me at least, thank you for your time. It's sincerely appreciated. Now.........

>>We are very aware of what our users and the industry expect. ACID 5 is a great tool for many users, however, we can't be everything to everybody as there are too many everythings on everybody's list

If Sony is aware of what the users and the industry expects, then why are they failing to meet those expectations in regards to midi? Please understand that I realize how big of a step that the addition of Rewire was, but (IMVHO) full blown midi implementation requests have been as popular if not more popular than the Rewire requests. Yet, we still don't have it. We understand that you can't be everything to everybody, but there are huge number of people that have been asking for this as a community and not individuals. How do the higher ups ignore such a loud voice?

All we want is a solution that's fair to the users that have been with these apps since the early SoFo days. In my opinion, giving those who want midi Rewire and saying "this should be good enough" isn't fair to us. Giving us midi in a limited form and the telling us "there's some stuff missing from this, but you're smart enough to figure out work arounds" isn't fair to us.

>>There is no promise that if we build it, they will come. We know what sets us apart and we refuse to comprimise that just to throw in the kitchen sink that others vendors tend to do.

There is also no promise that if you don't build it that you won't lose your market share either. We (the community that is asking for full midi implementation) are not asking for the kitchen sink. We just want a pro-level DAW that has midi functions on par with other vendors in the industry.

>>Being smart vs reactionary is a far better way to survive in any business. We play to our stengths. We never have, and unlikely will, played the bullet item for bullet item game the other vendors play.

Fair enough, but Sony got the idea of folder tracks (which I think is a great idea) from somewhere since they weren't the first ones to use them. Bullet item for bullet item can be smart as long as the item is important (like full blown midi).

However you want to give it to us (Midi Forge, full blown midi in Vegas, or full blown midi in Acid) is fine with us. Just give it to us.

As a side note Peter: How can we get these concerns to the higher ups in the company instead of chewing your ear off? I've worn the product suggestion button out on the Sony page with no results. E-mail addresses for those that continue to say that full blown midi implementation isn't "cost effective"? Maybe you could copy this thread to them? I know it's wishful thinking but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/2/2005 9:43:55 AM

>>ReWire vs MIDI sequencing

ReWire makes great sense from a different set of criteria. Becomming a ReWire device fit with the model that ACID exposes. It wasn't because of any screaming done here. We knew about what it could bring. We found the right time in the ACID dev cycle, and we commited to doing it.

Adding a full blown traditional MIDI sequencer is a different product direction and a much larger problem than ReWire.

>>but Sony got the idea of folder tracks...from somewhere since they weren't the first ones to use them
<<
Nope, not something we borrowed or learned from somebody else. We wanted to do this for a long time, but 5.0 was the first chance we had to do it.

>>There is also no promise that if you don't build it that you won't lose your market share either.

True, and this is a risk we take. Just becoming "another DAW like tool" is not enough. There are enough DAWs out there in my personal opinion. We have to build the better mouse trap.


>>We just want a pro-level DAW that has midi functions on par with other vendors in the industry.
<<

Understood.

Will we build this? I can't talk about what we will or wont do in the future.

The "higher ups" in our division know about this and have always known about this.

There isn't much of a better person to talk about this with than me. Joel and the other members of the engineering team are always here listening, if not actively responding.

Everything that has ever been brought up on this forum is not new. Just about every level in the division knows or has heard it discussed.

Doesn't mean we don't listen. Sometimes the answer is no.

I am not saying 'no' today about anything. I am just stating the way it is today.

We believe our products provide solutions to problems that we have identified as needing a solution.

Will our MIDI improve? Yes. Will it be what you specifically want? I can't answer that today.

Can I tell you specifically what we are working on? No.

Our products advance and add both new features and try to meet user requests. That will never change.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/2/2005 11:48:10 AM

>>True, and this is a risk we take. Just becoming "another DAW like tool" is not enough. There are enough DAWs out there in my personal opinion. We have to build the better mouse trap.

If you think that adding full blown midi to Acid or Vegas would make either one of them just "another DAW like tool", then I think you're selling your products short in my opinion. Acid and Vegas are already "the better moustraps" (again IMVHO) in a variety of different ways. Why do you think some of us use them even without all the things that some of us want them to have? However, just because you have or are building the better mousetrap doesn't mean that you should leave out the or use lower quality cheese (midi) in the trap just because you don't want to be like "other mousetraps" in the neighborhood.

I know....I know. I took the analogy thing a bit far...lol. Thanks again for taking the time Peter.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/2/2005 5:00:32 PM

>>or use lower quality cheese (midi)

This is subjective. Our MIDI fits our paradigm. It is not cheesy, but serves the purpose it was designed for. You want something different. Calling our MIDI features names will not convince me any more of your desire.

I am done with this discussion as there is no point to it. I heard you the first time.

ACID does what it does. ACID's MIDI will advance.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Weevil

Date:3/2/2005 5:59:34 PM

Thanks very much for the reply Peter, do very much appreciate it.

I think my quota is about one a year from you, so looks like I’ll see you again in 06. :-)

>>They must be some pretty crazy numbers you and the Sony folk are looking at there big guy.

What do you believe the big picture "numbers" are for this space?

>>...And there has got to be a huge amount of people who fit into that middle category.

Not to be difficult, but quantify "huge amount".

Obviously everyone knows I can only be talking about anecdotal “numbers”.

And as I said, ultimately I gotta accept that the -actual- numbers you see must be telling you a whole different story.

...There is a ‘huge amount’ of (again totally anecdotal) evidence suggesting that Acid and particularly Vegas (on the audio side) do not create anywhere near the amount of consumer heat that ‘other’ pretty similar programs do: Hits on forums, rankings in consumer polls, editorial (hard and online), user fan sites, general web and on-the-street ‘talk’, etc, etc...

... Yes those other programs are incredibly bloated. But it is also very obvious (from the same sorts of sources mentioned above) that some of their core features are extremely popular.

Rewire and VSTi are classic examples of this. Everywhere you look there is something buzzing involving these two technologies, they are absolutely ubiquitous and have been for ages now. They are very mature, well developed products in the market place. And without a single hard figure in front of me I can safely say that these two features are massively popular with users.

...And those sorts of arguments are as close to quantifying “huge amount” and big picture “numbers” as I am going to be able to get.

...Rewire and VSTi are actually really good examples of the issue I am on about.

Without being too critical, Sony/SF have not been all that quick off the blocks in recognising the rise of those two technologies. Even though I’d say it really was obvious for a long time that these two were big ticket items with users.

The frustrating thing is that I am positive that it is only a matter of time until the scope of Vegas expands to eventually support both of these (as you say the programs grow and develop over time (hint people hint!!!))

It’s just that (if that were to happen) we all would have been soooooooooooo much better off if it had happened two years ago rather than two years from now.

Stuff like media managers and scripting are great, very worthwhile. And I fully appreciate the need for developmental balance across the applications. But including them now at the expense of something like Rewire seems like commercial suicide. (That’s meant to be a metaphorical (rather that actual) example of the sorts of decisions I’m talking about).

Obviously I love the programs, I totally agree with the philosophically of what you are trying to do, I certainly don’t want you to cross to the dark side and build spaghetti applications...And like I say, I’m sure your real figures probably do blow monopoly money figures out of the water.

But I suppose I don’t hear anything from you that sways me from my dumb ‘outsider looking in’ perspective...To me it looks a lot like the development cycle suffers from ‘over thinking’. Resulting in it being too conservative and ‘theoretical’ to cope quickly enough to fluctuations in the real world.

Ultimately I that is all I think I have been arguing the whole time.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/2/2005 6:11:55 PM

What’s all this talk about mousetraps? Are people’s mice getting away from them? I knew wireless mice were a bad idea! There’s no tail to hold on to when they start to run. I hate wireless mice and I hope the ACID developers are not wasting their time trying to build a better mouse trap to catch them. Get yourself a mouse with a wire people! ;-D

(written in my best "Rosana Rosana Dana" voice)

~jr

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: merlyn

Date:3/2/2005 7:19:36 PM

Peter: I in no way meant to to imply that Acid's midi was "cheesy" nor was I calling Acid's midi features names. I was simply making an analogy (as bad as it may have been) using your "mousetrap" idea. You know.....as in "you can't catch a mouse without cheese" and as in "the better the cheese the bigger the mouse". If you go back and read what I wrote, I think you'll understand what I said a bit better in context. I truly meant no disrespect whatsoever and was in no way trying to belittle your work (as you can see from my posts in this thread, that isn't really my style). Considering the conversation, it was simply a bad analogy that you misunderstood as a slight towards you guys and it was not intended as such. I understand how that could happen. Please re-read my previous post and I'm sure you'll understand. I'm terribly sorry for the the misunderstanding. I never meant to offend.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/2/2005 11:05:22 PM

merlyn : My bad. Didn't get the "mouse trap" connection.

I am touchy about ACID's MIDI.

I do hear you on all of this - as do I hear what every other user has ever posted about ACID's MIDI.

Again, ACID's MIDI will improve and advance.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/3/2005 12:14:33 AM

Midi in Acid is acidistic. That's all we love about Acid's Midi.

I remember, when Sofo sold its audio/video apps to Sony, I was pretty sure that the devellopement team would grow (like Apple did for eMagic)....

Besides, the thing I was the most afraid of, is that Sony gives its audio/video pro line up, to focuse on the consumer market (with Home products).

All this discussion we are having is just about the fact that Sony didn't put enough cash or will into the pro line. They're maybe just willing not to loose money, and figuring out how to earn some more, starting from a SoFo's buyers estimation.

What I mean, is that they're not giving the pro line a "pro " level ressource.
Maybe they're not convinced in the market, I donno...

Acid hasn't got the money to follow (and trying to catchup) concurence (that, we all know it, would be blown away if they made it, and I'm a pessimistic guy).

I'd like to remind that there's no smoke without fire... This post and many more in this forum aren't posted without reason, these posts are representing user's point of view. Even if in this forum there may be only 5% of Acid customers, well this is still significant. Remember that behind there's users taking time to think not only about using the app, but also thinking on how to make it evolve. If we didn't love this piece of art, well, we wouldn't care and wouldn't post these topics.

PS ; and yes, Acid's workflow is the best. All the other apps are just trying hard but they'll never beat this status. We don't need magazine's reviews to know this.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/3/2005 8:26:26 AM

>>Acid's workflow is the best.

Exactly. We have to deal with that with anything new or improved that we add. We break that and we are sunk.

We have the resources, and there is no audio vs video wars going on. We are careful. If that means being late to the party, then that is fine. We'd rather do it right.

Doing it right is our better mouse trap.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: gjn

Date:3/3/2005 12:12:55 PM

Acid's workflow is the best.

Exactly. We have to deal with that with anything new or improved that we add. We break that and we are sunk.

We have the resources, and there is no audio vs video wars going on. We are careful. If that means being late to the party, then that is fine. We'd rather do it right.

Doing it right is our better mouse trap.


i'm OK with you.
good strategie if the evolutions are "the rock".
and not 24 month wait..!!!!

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Weevil

Date:3/3/2005 3:54:58 PM

All totally fair enough Big P.

...Just don't want you to be so late that everyone at the party has already selected someone else to dance with...

...Okay, I shut up now...

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/3/2005 4:21:37 PM

"I am touchy about ACID's MIDI."

<bg> I can vouch for that, when ever I've made comments about Acid's midi functionality and limitations.

I remember when midi was first introduced into Acid. The request from users, was "just give us some basic midi track functionality, so we can put midi tracks with our audio tracks." That's what they got. While some people are looking for an uber program that does everything, with the easiest UI on the planet, I just haven't seen it done. I prefer my seperate Sony apps that specialize in their individual functions and I can purchase the other Sony tools if my workflow requires it. The way I look at is like a home theatre audio system. Which is better a home theatre system that comes in one black box with some cheap speakers, or individual seperate components consisting of seperate amps for each channel, with a seperate DVD player, seperate surround processor, seperate high quality speakers? I view the Sony suite of software as the later. While I hoped Acid would expand more on it's midi functionality, I realize this may contradict what makes Acid so powerful on it's looping features. I think rewire is the solution to all of this, where you have the ability to use your specialized focused tool and combine it with your other specialized focused tool. So to maintain that paradigm of having seperate specialized focused tools, I would love to see Sony develop a seperate specialized focused midi sequencer that could then be rewired with either Acid or Vegas. Some people want midi in Vegas, others want more midi in Acid. I say Yuck to midi in Vegas, where I can actually envision it more in Acid, since Acid is more musical and functions like a midi sequencer with audio, where you can change tempo's and key signatures. Who makes a specialized midi sequencer anymore? Maybe Cakewalk has a couple options, but still have many limitations as far as midi functionality as I'm concerned.

I work with Midi probably the opposite as J.R., thus why I find the midi functionality in Acid limited. My musical background is that I was a drummer, and had some keyboard lessons also, but most of all with creating music I have music theory knowledge under my belt, so I know how to write music, but have a hard time performing it. My solution to this, is that I need strong editing and arranging features to overcome my performance limitations. You will find me spending 10% of my time working with the midi performance, where the other 90% is spent editing the individual notes to make the performance sound natural. I will fine tune, the attack velocity, release velocity, duration, and placement timing of each note so they are not the same and the accents and non-accented notes feel right to me. I will do this detailed editing on up to a 16 bar musical phrase, then I will copy it and then maybe tweak a couple notes attack velocities and durations so that the performance doesn't sound copied. On my Akai sampler I will sample real drum sounds, and then layer sounds, and alter the pitch on the layer or add another sound sample, where each layer is triggered at a different midi velocity number. Thus a typical highhat sample for me, may have 3 different layered sounds on one musical note, where when I hit an accent note at a certain velocity it will trigger the tick sound hat sample, and a loose hat sample pitched down, to give it the effect that the drummer hit the hat harder like is usually done on the 1,2,3,and 4 count notes, but the "&" notes are not accented thus will have a lower velocity value and therefore don't trigger the other layered loose hat sound. Thus, I spend a lot of time being maticulous that my midi performance sounds like a real performance and to do that I need some powerful editing features with a simple UI that allows me to select a note in the piano roll and get to the midi list editor values of that note quickly.

My opionion is that I love all the Sony software over anything else out there because it is well focused and has a simple yet powerful UI, and I've tried pretty much everything else out there before I made my choice. There is just one hole in their suite of software in my music creation needs that needs to be filled and that's a well focused powerful midi sequencer. Give me Midi Forge, and I can quit trying all the Cakewalk demos out and running into all the pitfalls that keep me away from going that route. I don't want to buy a bloated Sonar which has every feature under the sun, but is not well focused in any of those features just for midi sequencing. I want a well focused, full featured midi sequencer, that can be rewired with Acid and Vegas.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/3/2005 4:36:07 PM

About "Midi Forge"... Well this could simply be the OPT Plugin, took at another level I guess. But making a 3rd app for midi would be cost and time effective.

I'd like to thanx Peter and all the people reacting in this post. I think we've cleared everything out. Great job, now I feel releaved, and informed.

Thank you for your time.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Weevil

Date:3/3/2005 6:56:11 PM

I remember when midi was first introduced into Acid. The request from users, was "just give us some basic midi track functionality, so we can put midi tracks with our audio tracks." That's what they got

Yeah I clearly remember PH bemoaning exactly this sort of scenario (in relation to MIDI in particular) years and years ago. He knew full well that even though people were only requesting basic functionality, it was going to be like opening Pandora’s Box.

MIDI is a very complicated, completely separate facet, probably at least as different as Video is to Audio. Massive amount of work to make it happen, and once you give people a taste of it they want the kitchen sink.

I look at is like a home theatre audio system. Which is better a home theatre system that comes in one black box with some cheap speakers, or individual seperate components consisting of seperate amps for each channel, with a seperate DVD player, seperate surround processor, seperate high quality speakers?

...Totally Big Red, just let us plug our components into each other like everyone else can and I reckon "a huge amount" of the natives would be a lot happier...

...Well, until we think of something else to complain about...

A powerful MIDI forge OPT plug-in would indeed turn these two programs into very mighty beasts.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: DKeenum

Date:3/4/2005 9:07:54 AM

I wonder if the MIDI OPT plug-in idea could go somewhere.... I like it. I think it could solve a lot of our complaints, and I wouldn't mind paying for it.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/4/2005 9:28:04 AM

"We have the resources, and there is no audio vs video wars going on. We are careful. If that means being late to the party, then that is fine. We'd rather do it right. "

Well, that just doesn't hold water. You took your time, sure, but Acid Pro 5 was released to the public with tons of bugs, which still haven't been fixed.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:3/4/2005 10:07:10 AM

Well, that just doesn't hold water. You took your time, sure, but Acid Pro 5 was released to the public with tons of bugs, which still haven't been fixed.

Wow. Where have I heard this before?

(What is it they say? The more things change...)

Seriously, what's wrong with your copy of ACID Pro? Maybe one of us here can help.

Iacobus
-------
RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid
Buy Instant ACID by JohnnyRoy and mD!
mD at ACIDplanet

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/4/2005 10:54:54 AM

"I wonder if the MIDI OPT plug-in idea could go somewhere.... I like it."

Personally, I don't like the idea of a "plug-in". Maybe, we have a different viewpoint of a plugin? When I think of a plug-in, I think it therefore needs a "Host" to plug in to, to make it work. Midi is a big animal and I have many uses for it, probably more than the average midi sequencer user. With my midi sequencer, I use it to create music and when I'm editing the midi that's the only thing I want on my screen. I also use it has a control interface, where I can control all my external hardware which have midi IN ports through Program changes, midi channel and patch selections, as well as controling parameters on that device. Another use that I have for my midi sequencer with my external hardware is midi bulk dumps. I have a Yamaha 03D mixing board. When I do a mix on the 03D, I will bulk dump to my midi sequencer, where I can save that mix for later recall and not worry about accidentally deleting what is stored on the mixer. I also use it similarly with mastering, where I use my TC Finalizer, and then when I'm done mastering an entire album, I midi bulk dump from the Finalizer to my midi sequencer and save that sequence, I then bulk dump back previously saved midi data to the Finalizer so that I'm ready to go for the next mastering job. Then if the client later wants to come back and make some changes, I just recall their sequence and dump the information back to the finalizer, and I pick up where we left off. Thus, it's a total recall function for external hardware devices. So for most of these uses I don't need Acid or Vegas, I just need a stand alone full featured midi sequencer, thus why I don't prefer a plugin. Oh course if I could have both through the use of rewire where when rewired the midi sequencer acts like a plugin, and when not rewired it is it's own focused dedicated animal then I'm happy to call it a plugin.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/4/2005 11:59:27 AM

My copy of Acid Pro 5 crashes all the time. I know you are aware of the scrolling issues, as I've seen other users post that they've had similar problems. That is the worst of it, but not the extent...The program often can't load presets I've entered on plug-ins when I reopen a project...and never shows the name of the preset on a synth or a plug-in, it always reverts back to untitled.

Last night I tried to undo about 90 actions on a project I was working on, and it told me some buffer couldn't handle it right before crashing. When I reloaded from the temp file, my undo buffer was gone.

Crashing increases exponentially when using synths (DubSiren is a particular no-no, but many others don't play nice either).

I also get lock-ups often when previewing loops (not in the media manager, just the standard explorer) and most of my cheaper vst plug-ins just instantly cause acid to crash as soon as I turn them on.

So, ahem, when is the patch coming? Does anybody know?

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/4/2005 12:52:20 PM

WRT the VSTi plugins you have problems with:

Have you contacted the vendors of these plugins?
Have they tested with ACID?
What did they tell you when you contacted them - other than "It works in Cubase...".

We cover the plugins we can. We don't have every possible plugin available and could never cover all test cases possible with every VSTi that exists.

We have offered and continue to offer any plugin vendor to contact us so we can provide them any and all information they require. If they can't test with our demo, all they have to do is request a NFR for testing.

The big boys - NI, Steinberg, etc - are willing to work with us to assure that their plugs work. The smaller shops never test or contact us from what we have seen.


Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/4/2005 12:54:24 PM

Could you quantify "ton"?

We know there are issues, and we are working on them. However, "ton" seems to be an extreme statement.

I see in your history a couple of posts with specific issues. If you have anything more you'd like to discuss, please provide us with as much information as you can. You can email me with the specifics if you'd prefer.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/4/2005 1:28:17 PM

Take Peter up on his offer. We as users understand you're having some problems that you would like fixed. That does not mean you should jump in every post and make complaints that are in no manor related to the discussion in this thread. This is not only "Illogical", but is rather rude and inconsiderate of the other users having this discussion. I think this thread has had some rather good discussion, giving some good feedback to Sony as to what we would like to see in future versions of Acid/Vegas/Midi Forge. If you feel the need to be rude and side track that discussion because Peter is contributing in this conversation, then start to expect the same type of behavior back from other users when you're looking for assistance.

If you feel it necessary, then start your own post outlining the problems you're experiencing.

Thanks,
Red

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/4/2005 1:43:22 PM

well, I would like to be more helpful in my post, and maybe ton is extreme, especially since 1's and 0's don't really weigh anything, but I do feel like "Where do I start?" I have a brand new computer running a completely legit version of AP5 and it crashes a LOT. AP4 used to, 9 times out of 10, give me an option to save on the rare occasion when it crashed. That never happens anymore, sometimes I don't even get the message saying Acid needs to close, it just makes a quick buzz and then disappears.

The preset thing is another real pain...I'll have a project where I've selected a preset for a plug-in. I close it, reopen, and now the preset is untitled. It's still configured right, but I don't know which preset it is. If I want to play around and try a different setting, I don't know which preset to go back to if I don't like the changes (I know, undo...but what if I've made other changes I want to keep in the meantime?). So why does it do that? Other times when I reopen a project, it just tells me it couldn't load a preset that I've configured for some reason or another, and each time I open the project I need to reset the plug-in's settings.

I'll try to take better notes next time I use it, but I really don't think I'm alone with all these problems. I've seen similar issues posted here and on the AcidPlanet website...

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Illogical

Date:3/4/2005 2:05:36 PM

Red, sorry to offend you, but I'm not a bad person and I'll stand by my comment. Sony is saying the reason they can't give us features (MIDI and otherwise) to bring Acid in line with Sonar, Logic, or Cubase is because it may threaten the stability of the core app, but the latest (and first truly 'Sony') version of the core app is already remarkably unstable in its current incarnation. I paid $150 for an upgrade that, in my mind, is severly defective. I have some right to be ticked off and will continue to point out specious arguments whenever I darn well please.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/4/2005 3:03:31 PM

"I have some right to be ticked off and will continue to point out specious arguments whenever I darn well please. "

I agree, my thought is that you might be more effective in doing so, by starting your own post, where the discussion can be focused at what problems you are having. You can therefore rant all you want, and then give some details as to the problems you are seeing, to maybe help fix those problems. Sony is working on a bug fix update, and maybe some of your bugs you're complaining about have already been fixed, but the update just hasn't been released yet. It's in the works and is being tested by a number of beta testers to hopefully get a solid release to you in the near future. To be sure though they need more information as to the problems you are experiencing, otherwise the only thing you're doing is releasing hot air. Which, may be beneficial to you, but not very helpful ensuring things get fixed. Your crusade is to get bugs fixed, so that you get the product you paid for. My crusade is to get Sony to consider a full featured midi sequencing tool. Right now you're stepping on my toes in my crusade. Therefore, ranting in a thread that has nothing to do with your problem is rude as I mentioned and very unproductive in getting things resolved. If being rude to other users is your focal point of your energy in your crusade, then I can assure you, you're talking to the right guy that can turn on a rudeness switch at a drop of a hat. Right now, I'm being pretty polite, I would like to keep it that way between us.

Thanks for the consideration,
Red

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/4/2005 4:47:33 PM

Well, when I since started this post, it was about Multitracking abilities.

But midi improvement is a good subject, as important as Recording improvement.

I can also find myself, in my 5.0 experience with Illogical's bug list.

This is still in the subect "Essential Function in Acid". The big three points are just beeing covered well as we all agree :

- Bug fixes (hoping 5.0a, and good stability imrpovement for 6.0)
- Midi major enhancement (who don't use midi nowdays ?)
- Recording enhancement (for both Audio & Midi, listed in my first thread)

Now, Sony has answered my Recording enhancement question, the midi question and the bug fixes one. The answers are more and more clear :

About the bugs : Sony is glad to help Plugin Devellopers when asked.
About the Midi : Acid's Midi will improve and advance. (no major enh.)
About the Recording : Acid is not Vegas, forget about multitrack in it.

We also know that it's not our job, neither develloper's to quantify a "Huge amout" (of people) needing or
not needing an ehancement. Personnaly, I haven't heard of an official poll sent (wordlwide) to the customers.
So I don't know if at Sony, they have an accurate vision of their client's need (or maybe I missed something ?)...

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/4/2005 6:14:22 PM

I give up. Spin what I said how ever you want.

You seem to have fun with it, so have at it.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/4/2005 7:41:59 PM

I wasn't trying to play on what you said. I was simply summing up the thread.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Vegas - The Big Gamble

Date:3/5/2005 1:35:04 PM

Well that's all rather disappointing given I had been hoping for a response to my polite question earlier in this thread - instead I got nothing but watched PCH repeat the same things he had been saying before I had written my posting (which deliberately *wasn't* just repeating what was already here!!)

Peter.. if you *are* still here, please have a look back!! Thanks!

drew

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/5/2005 7:36:17 PM

>>Can you/Sony please recommend a way that those used to working with the all in one DAWs can stick with Vegas for their audio and do their MIDI elsewhere?
<<

The direct solution is to have Vegas generate MTC or MIDI Clock for your MIDI sequencer to slave against.

Any sequencer that can slave to MTC or MIDI Clock should work.

This is the only solution we offer at this time.

Peter

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/6/2005 9:01:17 AM

"The direct solution is to have Vegas generate MTC or MIDI Clock for your MIDI sequencer to slave against."

And this is the solution I've been using since the first versions of Acid and Vegas.

A little personal background history here:
Before I Jumped on the Sonic Foundry ship, here's how my set of tools laid out and I was using a MAC.

1. Sound Designer- Stereo Editor
2. Studio Vision Pro-Midi Sequencer
3. Master Tracks- CD Assembly
4. Akai Sampler- Loop arrangements by loading a loop and trimming it in the sampler and then arranging it in a song by triggering the loops with midi notes in SVP.
5. Protools-Multitrack

These tools I would use together and I would sync them together using MTC. MTC isn't that hard, it's just getting it setup and working the first time, where people seem to have the most trouble with it. So I was already familiar with setting up a system to sync through MTC from working in the studio on the MACs.

Now these where the tools I was using in a studio I was working in. I owned a PC at home and I wanted to bring my work home with me. People at that time, and I think there's still a few around, told me if you want to do serious studio work like you're able to do at work, then you'll need to buy a MAC. I said, well I already own a PC, and I'm most familiar with that OS so I guess it doesn't hurt for me to try a few Demo's on the PC and see for myself now does it? So here's how my migration from MAC to PC happened.

1. Sound Designer>Sound Forge.
This was a no brainer decision Sound Forge was much more powerful than Sound Designer and did everything I wished SD could do.
2. Studio Vision Pro(Mac)>Studio Vision(PC).
Another no brainer the PC version did everything the MAC version did as far as midi sequencing, it just didn't have the new audio tools being added on the Mac side version like so many sequencers where starting to sprout at that time.
3. Master Tracks> CD Architect.
This again was a no brainer, CD Architect was so far ahead of Master Tracks, it wasn't even a comparison. CD architect was everything I only wish I had when i was going through the frustrations of working with master tracks.
4. Akai Sampler>Acid.
Acid was a new revolution of what it was able to do with looped audio, nothing on the MAC had anything like this. Again another no brainer step on my part and gave me an advantage over the PC vs MAC wars .
5. Protools>Vegas
This was my toughest decision. This took me a good solid three months before I made my final decison. I tried Samplitude, Cool Edit Pro, Logic Audio, Cubase, Cakewalk, and SAW. My decision came down to a choice between Cool Edit or Cubase. Cool Edit had a simpler UI, but just didn't have the tools I needed, so Cubase it was. I purchased a couple books, in hope to figure out how to use those features in Cubase and to figure out how to do simple editing tasks. I spent a good 1 1/2 months learning that program and during that time Sonic Foundry released Vegas Pro v1.0. I downloaded the demo, and what took me 1 1/2 months to learn how to do in Cubase, took me 2 hours to learn in Vegas. Decision finalized, I found the better mouse trap.

After assembling my line up of PC tools, I can say for sure those MAC guys where full of crap. Not only could I do the same work I was doing in the studio on those Macs, I was doing it better with the choice of tools I had on the PC side and I was using both sides of the fence to be for sure. Mac at work, PC at home.

My workflow from that time hasn't changed much, it's expanded due to technological advances, but the core function workflow is the same. The only part of my core tools listed above that hasn't advanced is my midi sequencer, which stopped at v2.5.1. It is still a full featured midi sequencer, exept it now hasn't had any changes in 5 years and is lacking support for VSTi's and Rewire, and I'm stuck using at on Win98se. The MAC version also had stopped being updated 5 years ago, but went to v 4.2.2, where Rewire and VSTi are capable in those versions and is supported up to OS 9. Not bad for something that hasn't been developed in over 5 years huh?

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/6/2005 10:02:35 PM

Rednroll,

Quite an interesting background. I've been reading your post, looking around the softwares mentionned, etc... I understand how your work now, which is a pretty good setup to me. My only question is : did you follow the evolution of Sonar, Logic and Cubase ? If yes, did you find any imrpovement in their workflow that fits you ? If no, then, in Vegas, what are your best wishes ?

Thanx in advance.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/7/2005 12:14:45 AM

"did you follow the evolution of Sonar, Logic and Cubase ?"

Yes. I followed Cakewalk up until CW Pro Audio 9.0. I had started looking at CW starting at CW5.0, then 6.0, 7.0, 8.0, and finally 9.0. I was mainly looking at it for my midi sequencing needs. The one thing I didn't like about cakewalk was that I could never find the list editor for editing the midi parameters. Another simple feature that drove me crazy in using CW was that in Vision, I could create a track with a 1 bar loop, a 4 bar loop and a 6 bar loop, and just put loop bars around each track, then designate the sequence to be let's say 12 bars long and each track would loop for the duration of 12 bars. In CW I had to copy the 1 bar loop and paste 11 times, the 4 bar loop paste 2 times, and then copy and paste the 6 bar loop 1 time. Basically I had to find the common denominator of all the tracks. If I threw in a 3 bar loop, now I really had to do some math and editing. So in Vision this took me exactly 4 mouse clicks to achieve. In CW it took me 17 mouse clicks, plus it took up a whole lot more screen space of 12 bars, where in Vision it took up 6 bars of screen space. So I didn't find CW very effecient in it's work flow.

I followed Logic Audio up to v5.0. A lot of Studio Vision users jumped to Logic audio, after it was announced that Studio Vision was to cease and desist. I tried L.A. 3.0, 4.4, and 5.0. It was a very powerful midi sequencer, the problem was is that the UI is a very steep learning curve. I became very frustrated in trying to learn it. There's actually a post in the Vision user forum I ran across, where a user posted a message that said, "Here's a tutorial on to help anyone considering making the jump to Logic in making the jump not so painful, although I don't know why you would want to." Maybe if I had found a tutorial like that earlier, I'ld be using Logic now, but I'm glad I didn't seeing Logic has now also seased and desisted on the PC side.

I followed Cubase up to SX 1.0 and also tried Nuendo 1.6. In both cases the UI drove me nuts. I found myself constantly going to the menu to show the master mix section and the bus output sections and they kept disappearing evertime I would go back to the track section. Plus, I could never get my head around editing the audio or the midi. Too many edit tools to change between to do simple editing. Another feature I find eccential in Studio Vision is that sometimes clients bring in their keyboards with midi sequences on them. I usually dump these sequences from their keyboard into Vision. Well most of the time the drum parts are on one midi track and I need to layoff these parts as seperate audio tracks, so I need to split the notes up onto seperate tracks so I can solo and mute the kick, snare, hat, etc. In Vision I goto that tracks piano roll editor, and goto the left where the piano keyboard is and click that particular note and all of those particular notes get selected for the entire duration of the sequence. So let's say the snare was on C-3. I goto the left and click C-3 and all the snare notes get selected. I then do a copy and paste these to a new midi track and their position stays the same, but now they're on a seperate track as the kick, etc. Also using this technique, I can copy all those snare hits and paste them to another note, or drag them all to another note, once they're selected. Now I can have 2 snare sounds that hit together on seperate keys, to make more interesting fuller snare sounds with a combination of the two. This tends to take lot of scrolling of the entire track in Cubase and selecting every individual note as I scroll. So what's 1 mouse click in Vision could amount to 100 clicks in Cubase. Not very productive.

Another major show stopper for all these other midi sequencers is that they don't seem to have a song arangement step record function. What I mean by this is in Vision, I create seperate midi sequences and name them Intro, Verse1, Chorus, Verse 2, Bridge, and then Outro. They appear in a master sequence window, quite similar to the media pool in Vegas. I then create another sequence and put a track in "Step Record". On this track goes Intro, Verse 1, Chorus, Verse 2, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Outro. And all these previous sequences I made appear as seperate events on that one track, and it's a nested sequence. I can trim the event or if I decide I want to now further edit the "Verse 1" event sequence, I double click on it and up pops a copy of the orignal Verse 1 sequence of all the individual tracks, where I then edit it or even record additional parts. The list editor in Vision also takes a lot less mouse clicks to edit data as compared to Cubase. In Cubase you have to select either Velocity, Duration, Release, and only each of these is exposed at one time. So I like to edit 1 note at a time. So in Cubase I have to edit the velocity, change the view to duration, edit that, change the view...etc. In Vision it has a dedicated list editor window. So what it does is show the note value, duration, velocity, release all at once. You can play the sequence and a little speaker icon jumps to the note that's playing, quite like the bouncing ball does for Karaoke videos that show the words. So you can see the note that's being triggered as you're hearing it and see all the midi data values associated with at all at once. You hear something you don't like, you can edit the velocity and duration, and release by just clicking on their listed values in the list editor without having to select each individual parameter individually like in Cubase.

As far as Vegas. Vegas does most everything I need it too. As I mentioned I've been using Vegas since v1.0. I had previously been using Pro Tools doing music production and in additon to that I worked in an audio advertising production house that used Neve audiophile editors. The Neve's where extremely effecient in their editing of audio. I would regularly do 3D-2 sessions, where 2 studios at seperate locations would be recording the same session and editing on the fly. Usually the studio on the other end was using Protools. You had to be extremely effecient in your editing, because with the use of 2 studios charging normal studio time, plus the 3D-2 connection fees, the client was easily looking at $600/hr combined studio time, plus the $250/hr V.O. talent fee. Sometimes, we would have races with each other to see who could edit the VO takes together to do a composit edit playback for the client. Everytime, the Neve would win in the editing race. It came to the point where I would work with other studios on a regular basis, and they would say, "Oh yeah, you guys have the Neve audiophiles, I'll let you handle the editing requests for playback, and I'll just record that when you're done." Well, with that editing experience in that work environment from using the Neve audiophile, I would regularly give feedback to the Sofo engineers of what I felt Vegas needed to make it effecient in that type of work environment and explained the use for these features. I think they might have listened to me. Slip editing on the head and tail event, the ability to create an edit between two events and then move the crossfade edit point, the trimmer window, all my suggestions from what I was able to do on the Neve audiophile. The autosave feature.....another audiophile suggested feature. The ability to select multiple events and do a time compression on all those events....yep suggested that one, because lots of time you would edit an entire radio spot together and it's a 60 second radio commercial, and it comes in at 61 seconds. You can bet that's useful when the client looks at you when you're all done editing and they're happy with the sound of it, and then you have to tell them, "well it's 1 second too long".

The things I would like to see from Vegas now, is that it gets rewire host support, so that I can rewire Acid to it. I'ld also of course like to see a full featured midi sequencer with rewire slave abilities and VSTi support, so I could rewire that to Acid or Vegas. Basically, I want a midi sequencer that has all the features of Studio Vision, but add the WinXP support, VSTi's and Rewire. Those are the features I'm behind the times in, in my current workflow. Give Acid full featured midi sequencing/editing tools and allow me to put nested projects on the timeline and I could work with that also. The other thing I would like to see in Vegas is CDtext support. I now prefer to use Vegas for my CD arrangement needs over CD Architect, so I would like to see that feature added to Vegas also.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: ziggly

Date:3/7/2005 12:57:51 AM

Red for god's sake
you always talk about Studio Vison
its driving me crazy,,,,,,,it sounds like the perfect midi app, yet i cant get it ;(

racebulls@yahoo.com

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/7/2005 1:28:37 AM

Yeah, In my opinion it is the perfect midi app, just like Acid is the perfect loop sequencing app. This is what makes it so difficult to jump to another sequencer, because this is my point of reference for eccential features. With Acid and Vision, the two work great for me together. The only problem is that you need to jump through a couple hoops, which I actually find preferable. Vision will not run on WinXP or Win2k, you're stuck with either Win95, or like me I'm running it on Win98se. So I have one PC running Win98se that is dedicated to running Vision. That PC has it's own midi interface. On another machine running WinXP is where Acid resides, also with it's own midi interface. To sync the two together, I send midi beat clock from Acid, out it's midi interface, which gets fed to the input of the midi interface on the Win98 machine, where Vision will follow the midi beat clock coming from Acid. What I find desireable about this setup is that each app has it's own video monitor, so it's very similar to running a dual monitor setup and there's no switching back and forth between apps on a single monitor. You just need to keep your 2 mice straight as to which is which. I usually run a wired mouse on the Acid PC and a wireless mouse on the Vision PC to keep them straight and allows me to move to a working area with the wireless mouse without getting mouse wires tangled.

Oh course you could do this same type of setup using the Vision that is available for download from Opcode's deserted site, but you would need to have a MAC running that version and be running OS 9. Download at www.opcode.com They don't even make the PC version available there, like it never even existed. The PC version wasn't available too long before Gibson cut Opcode off at the knees, so it never really had anytime to catch on with the PC crowd. When I visited the Opcode forum user's site, I noticed probably out of the 645 Vision users that are registered there, only about 4 where using the PC version. So us Vision PC users are a few lonely souls. If you're interested in running a seperate PC with a similar setup as mine with Win98se on it, send me an email at Rednroll AT hotmail.com and I'll tell you where to find the PC version. It's just a serial number copy protection, but you will need a seperate Win98 machine like I said. I've run it on a 200Mhz P1 with no problems, so if you have an old PC laying around, it makes it perfect for this.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:3/9/2005 11:13:51 AM

Wow. I agree with most of your opinion about Cubase and Logic. You didn't mention any Sonar, but I know what you'll say about it. The midi hasn't evolve that much since CW9 (maybe it didn't have to). You didn't say much about ProTools though. Knowing that PT's midi is really basic, what do you think about its audio functions and commands ? For recording artists it seems top notch.

Anyway, we came at the same conclusion that Vegas and Sonar are the big winners in workflow and logic (whereas for me, Cubase and Logic are... Illogic to my mind).

BTW, I've been raised with Acid. So when I look around (Cubase and Logic), I just feel like I've never touched a computer in my life.

My (acid user's) opinion on other main DAWs :

-Logic : illogic, but when you understand it, it's great... You're now able to make the music everybody does ^^.

-Cubase : German's logic. When you get its "artung*-ed workflow, you realize that you've not been making any music for an year ^^

-Sonar : easy to learn, but slow workflow. You have to know what you want before clicking somewhere.

Oops I forgot one :

-Live : A headake interface. Easy to learn with its embedded tutorials. General sounding : cold. Great for electronic music and of course for lives (even if watching a DJ clicking a mouse isn't that much exciting).

And the last but not least :

Acid : Freakin fast workflow, superlogical UI. Smart tools. I think Acid's precision resides in its grid. A what you see is what you get interface. At a certain level of knowledge, Acid can be an instrument of its own, especially for layering beats.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:3/10/2005 6:23:32 AM

Yes, it definately sounds like our views are very similar on the other programs.

Protools "what do you think about its audio functions and commands ? For recording artists it seems top notch."

There was something about the UI that I didn't like in Protools. It's been awhile since I've used Protools, so I couldn't tell you if I like it or not anymore. It also has the problem simular to Cubase of having too many tools to select for doing simple editing. That's one of the key features I like about the Sony software. My editing tool automatically changes depending on where I'm on the screen and everything is within a right click away depending on again where my mouse is located. Another thing I don't like about Protools is that I don't want to HAVE to buy their expensive hardware. I have a Yamaha 03D mixer that I use to record and mix in conjuntion with Vegas. I'm running dual Echo Gina 20's, until I upgrade to the 24bit versions. The dual Ginas work perfect for interfacing with my 03D. The 03D has 16 channels, the Gina's have 16 Analog outs (ie 1output/mixer channel). The 03D has 4 channel assignable bus outs. My Gina's have 4 analog inputs. (ie 1 input/bus output). In conjunction to that I got 2 digital stereo ins and 2 digital stereo outs with the Gina's. I purchased these Gina's over 5 years ago. For one I bought new and paid $250. The other I bought 6 monts later ioff of ebay for $65. So my audio hardware which is expandable cost me $315 total and I have 8ins/20 outs and has worked flaw;less for me using all the Sony appas. How much would I have spent for something comparible from Digidesign. How many thousands of dollars? I'ld probably be still paying on the credit card bill today and it wouldn't be the latest and greatests like my Gina's either.

Subject:RE: Essential functions in Acid : just a few things to do

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:3/10/2005 7:31:44 AM

> Another thing I don't like about Protools is that I don't want to HAVE to buy their expensive hardware.

AMEN! This is the Apple Mac mentality. If the software only runs on one set of hardware, you minimize hardware conflicts and support costs and give the perception that your software is more solid. It also allowed them to capture an entire market by providing a turn-key solution to people who are not computer savvy (i.e., recording studio engineers). Given that ProTools studios are predominantly Mac based, Digidesign as capitalized on the snob appeal of the Mac and their customers. It was a brilliant move that worked.

I have a guitar player friend (from a previous band) who actually sold his brand new (2 month old) PC laptop because a recording studio convinced him that he could only run ProTools with an MBox on a Mac. I even forwarded him information on how MBox and ProTools would run on his current laptop, but he said the studio he was working with insisted that it would not work. So Digidesign (and Mac) has their customers fairly well brain washed.

I wouldn’t hold my breath for a software only version of ProTools. (nor would you need one if you have Vegas)

~jr