Subject:cleaning up vinyl recordings

Posted by: Tikibrand

Date:2/18/2005 10:06:53 PM

'hoy to all out there in forumland, i, have a dilema. (now i mind you that i'm a "newbie" and don't use all those technical terms like Hz and db though i know what they are for the most part) I have recorded some vinyls to my computer w/ no trouble. was able to split the tracks just fine, and remove the noise and clicks and pops and such, and after this is done, i'm left w/ noise-less audio, but, its just not very clear. almost murky or muddy, or whatever. and certain peaks, the higher ones, tend to distort. I just wanna know what, if anything, i can do to remedy this problem. ...............but, in the end, it could just be the way it was made to sound. anyways, any help is gladly appreciated.

GODSPEED MY VIKINGS

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: drbam

Date:2/19/2005 5:49:16 AM

What method did you use to "remove the noise and clicks and pops and such"?

drbam

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: MJhig

Date:2/19/2005 9:23:40 AM

My guess is you are too aggressive with your processing. Here's a C&P of one of my previous posts on the subject;


Here's my method of converting my vinyl to CD using Sound Forge. This works well for me.

First and probably most important is to make sure the LPs are as clean as possible, the stylus, turntable, preamp and connections are in excellent shape of course.

If you have abused albums (scratches vinyl mold, etc.), literally wash them with dish liquid and an album cleaning brush following the grooves lightly > rinse thoroughly avoiding the label > let most of the water drain off, play and record with it WET. The water provides just enough of a lubricant to reduce static etc. remarkably well.

Obviously let it dry before placing it back in the jacket. Rinsing with distilled water would be ideal.

Set the recording level peaks at about -6 to -3 dB. This makes the Plugin Chainer settings work without much tweaking.

Record the whole album as one file, this way the relationship remains intact between tracks as it was originally mastered.

When recording is complete, Delete the spike sometimes produced by the stylus making contact at the start of each side of the LP.

Keeping in mind 'less processing is more'...

Noise removal plugins have a point of diminishing returns. Check the 'Keep residual' box to hear what will be removed, if you hear some of the program material along with the crackle it's set too aggressive. Be sure to un-check it before processing or that's all that will be in the file ;-)

Click and Crackle removal is my tool of choice for vinyl. Noise Reduction is not suited for this as it's best at sustained constant frequency noise such as tape hiss, air conditioner noise, 60 Hz hum etc. not spontaneous transients such as clicks and crackle. Using more than one noise removal plugin is going to degrade the audio significantly. Actually all processed performed on audio degrades it but noise removals are very destructive.

Set up a Plugin Chain this way in this order;

Click and Crackle Removal (More conservative, for vinyl recordings) > Graphic EQ (Really don't do much here, just roll off Freq's below 20 Hz and compensate for LPs cutting everything below 7 kHz by ~-3 dB) > Wave Hammer (using the preset 'Limit at -6 dB and maximize, change the maximizer's threshold to -3 dB and the output level to - 0.3 compressing just enough to "somewhat" compare to today's CDs). Save as a Preset chain called something like 'LP'.

Highlight the hottest part of the file either by visually looking at the waveform or using Tools > Statistics > Maximum Sample, open the Plugin Chainer, preview that selection adjusting the volume fader on the Graphic EQ until the peaks are as close to 0 db without going over in the input meter on the Wave Hammer Volume Maximizer page. This saves an extra process (normalize) on the data.

Process.

IF THERE IS NO BLANK SPACE BETWEEN SONGS (MIX);

Place the cursor at the start of the audio in the file.

Press 'm' to insert a marker.

Press the spacebar to start playback.

Press 'm' again at the crossfade location to insert another marker. Repeat to the end including a marker at the end.


IF YOU HAVE BLANK SPACE TO ELIMINATE BETWEEN SONGS;

Press '[' at the start of the song.

Press spacebar to start playback.

Press ']' at the end.

Press 'r' to create region and name it.

Repeat to the end.

Fade heads and tails of each track.

Click Special > Regions List > Markers to Regions, when prompted click yes or OK.

In the Regions List window highlight a region click enter to edit the track name.

(I use a CDDB like freedb.org for the album to C&P all the track titles, it's much easier than reading off the album jacket and typing them all. Roxio supports burning CD-Text, Sound Forge does not nor does it support DAO. The Region names will appear as the song titles when burned with Roxio DAO.)

Click tools > Extract Regions and save them to a folder, burn them all in your burning software using DAO (disk at once) to prevent 2 second gaps between tracks.

Additionaly;

WMP will not read CD text, it wants to connect to a CDDB for the info and CD-Rs don't identify themselves correctly for this to work. The old SoFo Siren does though and it simply saves to cdplayer.ini but there again WMP can't read that either even though the old Win CD player did but the developers of WMP have a better idea.?.

MJ

Edited for chronological clarity.

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: Tikibrand

Date:2/19/2005 6:43:18 PM

i was using wavepad to record and remove the noise, then removing clicks and pops and crackle w/ a program called PolderbitS Sound Editor, then somehow trying to clean it up in soundforge 6.0. w/ no prevail.

did soundforge 6.0 come w/ a click and crackle removal plugin?

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: drbam

Date:2/20/2005 7:53:12 AM

>>did soundforge 6.0 come w/ a click and crackle removal plugin?<<

No. Noise Reduction 2 is purchased separately. However, as suggested in the previous post, do not try to remove "noise" from these recordings. Just work on eliminating the pops, clicks, crackles, etc., and see if you get better results.

drbam

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: Tikibrand

Date:2/20/2005 8:21:11 PM

yeah, i guess i'll try that...........but what about the distortion on the higher peaks?

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: MJhig

Date:2/20/2005 8:45:57 PM

but what about the distortion on the higher peaks?

Huh? Follow my step by step directions and there will be no distortion.

Pay particular attention to the the recording level and be sure you are using a "receiver" or a turntable or preamp with a RIAA curve filter.

If you're recording with distortion then you are dead in the water before you get started.

MJ

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: Tikibrand

Date:2/21/2005 8:32:14 AM

don't mean to sound stupid, but, what exactly is an RIAA curve filter?

i guess i should turn down the recording volume down a bit on this artist, my other records sound find at my regular volume..........oh well, nilsson was always different.

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: mpd

Date:2/21/2005 10:21:20 AM

RIAA equilazation is used to make cutting a vinal record more feasible, and to get playback to sound better.

When you cut the record, you cut the low end (to reduce the groove width) and boost the high end.

When you playback the record, you boost the low end, and cut the high end (which helps reduce playback noise).

RIAA equilazation dictates the filters used for both creating and playing back the record. Most (all?) receivers that claim a phono-in have RIAA equilazation built in. If you want to digitize a record, then you either have to use an I/F with a phono-in, use the tape out from a receiver that does the eq, or apply the eq after you digitize. AFAIK, SoundForge does not have a preset for doing this, but I suspect that you could use the plugin chainer with custom filter settings.

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: Tikibrand

Date:2/22/2005 9:06:36 PM

........right...........still haven't had time to try recording again, maybe tomorrow.......i'll just continue playing around, perhaps a high-pass filter might help me.

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: MJhig

Date:2/22/2005 11:59:49 PM

perhaps a high-pass filter might help me NOT!

You've been given more that enough info. You simply can't record trash and expect to fix it down the road. If you think you can, you've been watching too much CSI.

MJ

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: spiderlegs

Date:2/24/2005 4:00:13 PM

Also, be careful and don't run the noise reduction filter on the same track more than once. Yeah, I'm the dumbass who actually thought this might work if I did it just right...heh...but, basically, if you don't like the results of what you just did, undo and try a different setting. Don't try and run the plug-in over the track you just edited or it will sound bad.

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: keether

Date:2/24/2005 5:14:30 PM

Now why is that?

What's the difference between two passes if you're using a light touch, and one pass with a heavier touch?

Originally on this same topic of vinyl restoration (recovery?) I was told (on this forum) to go lightly -- I was not told to confine my NR to one pass. If you do have a significant amount of background hiss to sample, before the music starts, why does it hurt to try to remove this a little at a time?

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: MJhig

Date:2/24/2005 5:40:00 PM

Several passes with NR is better, that said it has no place in vinyl restoration really.

NR is for constant noise as I stated above not clicks normally associated with vinyl recording and restoration.

MJ

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: mpd

Date:2/24/2005 6:28:30 PM

You need to play with the settings some more. You can almost always get better results with NR2 by two or more passes with small reduction settings. I recently worked wonders on a recording that someone else made that was infected with laptop noise. I believe I ran three mode 3 passes on it, with three different noiseprints. After some light EQ and some gating, the noise was gone from silence, and barely noticeable during normal passages.

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: MJhig

Date:2/24/2005 7:02:21 PM

You need to play with the settings some more. You can almost always get better results with NR2 by two or more passes with small reduction settings. I recently worked wonders on a recording that someone else made that was infected with laptop noise. I believe I ran three mode 3 passes on it, with three different noiseprints. After some light EQ and some gating, the noise was gone from silence, and barely noticeable during normal passages.

True enough for constant narrow band noise as you describe but the NR plugin will have no beneficial effect on clicks and crackle normally associated with vinyl restoration. In fact the use of it will more than likely harm the file.

As I stated above, the Click and Crackle plugin is what you want for vinyl but much more important is to get the very best recording to start with. Any kind of processing is insignificant in comparison.

MJ

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: danika

Date:2/24/2005 11:44:42 PM

I'm somewhat surprised that so far in this thread the ExpressFX Vinyl Restoration plug-in hasn't been mentioned at all. It doesn't come with any presets except General Restoration, so it takes some fiddling to get it to work. But it's not bad for removing clicks and noise. Anybody else have experience with it?

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: keether

Date:2/25/2005 11:59:07 AM

My question parallels that one: How does the SF/Sony Vinyl Restoration plugin compare to Click and Crackle Removal used in conjunction with NR2? Is it just a handy combination of them?

Subject:RE: cleaning up vinyl recordings

Reply by: spiderlegs

Date:2/25/2005 3:41:38 PM

Well, that's good to know. I haven't had the Noise Reduction Plug-in for very long. I think I may have set my settings a little too drastic maybe? I could get really good results with one pass, but if I tweaked it any more, there came the phase. I'll use smaller incremental changes and see what that does for a second pass.