Subject:Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Posted by: snicholshms

Date:2/15/2005 9:05:32 PM

Just got the Presonus Firepod with 8 mic pre amps. Wondered how to assign a separate track in Vegas to each of the eight pres? Need torecord a big band (18 musicians) and need to have all 8 mics live at once.
Selecting Options> Preferences>Audio Device>Presonus Firepod appears to only allow two tracks to be assigned. Is this correct?
Isn't it possible to have all eight mics live at once...as in multi track recording?
Is it necessary to use a mixer, too?
This forum is much more active than the Vegas Audio forum and I see that many of us use Vegas, too. Sure could use some help understanding how to record multitrack in Vegas.

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/15/2005 10:04:55 PM

In Vegas, if you right-click on the track header for an audio track there will be a context menu item called Record Inputs and that will show you all the inputs that Vegas sees, allowing you to select a different one for each track.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: snicholshms

Date:2/15/2005 11:35:42 PM

JohnnyRoy...once again you come up with the answer..thank you. I tried this before but did not arm the track so I never saw the track name...1L or 1R. Once I clicked on the track "arm" button it became very clear how to use Vegas.
I've been looking at Cubase SX3 and it appears that Cubase SX3 does everything Vegas and ACIDPro combined can do. Is that a fair assessment?

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/16/2005 5:36:51 AM

> I've been looking at Cubase SX3 and it appears that Cubase SX3 does everything Vegas and ACIDPro combined can do

On the surface it appears to be true, so I would have to say yes it is. When you get down to workflow I find ACID to be easier and more productive for loop based composition. I think Cubase just added ACID loop support in this latest release so you’re dealing with a brand new feature which may or may not time-stretch optimally.

I would seriously look at SONAR if you want an all-in-one solution. SONAR is way ahead of Cubase in looping capabilities. In fact, SONAR will let you pitch shift individual slices of a loop (e.g., a single bass note in a loop) which even ACID can’t do without splitting the loop on the timeline, soloing the track, and re-rendering it to a new file. SONAR does this on-the-fly! It was the primary reason I picked up SONAR 4. I hope Sony does some catch-up and adds this king of capability to ACID’s Chopper.

IMHO, I would not buy Cubase. (I know Cubase owners will argue with this and I’m not looking for an argument. This is just my opinion.) I have found Steinberg software to be quite buggy and a CPU hog but that’s just my personal opinion. I started with Cubasis VST but switched because didn’t like the interface (clicking the mouse on the timeline kept changing the in-out points and all I wanted to do was move the playback cursor. Not very intuitive for me). I’m just not a big fan of Steinberg and with all the buying and selling of that company, I would just stay away.

I have SONAR and ACID and they ReWire seamlessly. Cubase SX3 customers have been having LOTS of problems with ACID and Cubase ReWired together. If you want to ReWire ACID I would stay away from Cubase. That’s why I would recommend, if you are buying an all-in-one package new, I would look at SONAR.

Also give Mackie Tracktion a look. It’s cheap and simple to use, and ReWires with ACID too. I use Tracktion and ACID together and it works great.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: snicholshms

Date:2/16/2005 8:56:53 AM

JohnnyRoy_Thanks for the advice on Cubase..I downloaded the demo and it's a pain to work with...just the way it's "built". A friend of mine has a local recording studio and he seconds your thoughts on using SONAR and ACID together.

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: flow

Date:2/16/2005 11:58:31 AM

My Firepod will be delivered next friday. It's a great interface really, I've been playing with a friend's one and it's a very nice piece of equipment really. Imagine how great could be to load up Acid - with maybe a ready personalized work template ;) - then pressing rec and just start recording eight mics from the Firepod :)))

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: coolout

Date:2/17/2005 2:51:46 AM

" fact, SONAR will let you pitch shift individual slices of a loop (e.g., a single bass note in a loop) which even ACID can’t do without splitting the loop on the timeline, soloing the track, and re-rendering it to a new file."

that is NOT TRUE, acid has been able to do this for years...

sometimes you have go into the track properties and check the "preserve pitch" box depending on the file type.

you can go into any loop in acid hit the S key to split say your bassline into slices of notes, click on a slice, and hit the - or + on the numeric keypad to move the pitch up or down. it also works the same on midi data too.

i've been changing basslines and comping vocals this way using acid for years.

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/17/2005 8:12:35 AM

Are you saying that I can split the loop either in the properties or chopper and pitch shift individual notes and then paint that pitch shifted loop as a single loop? Because that’s news to me.

Read exactly what you copied from my post:

> ACID can’t do without splitting the loop on the timeline, soloing the track, and re-rendering it to a new file

You just described what I said:

> you can go into any loop in acid hit the S key to split say your bassline into slices of notes, click on a slice, and hit the - or + on the numeric keypad to move the pitch up or down.

You must split the loop on the timeline and pitch shift the part you split out. You can then cut and paste the loop parts or render them to a new loop if you just want to be able to paint them anywhere on the track. SONAR allows you to paint them anywhere on the track without cut and paste or rendering. It effectively changes the actual loop so that it behaves like any other (unsplit) loop. ACID cannot do that and maintain a single loop. Your get all these bits and pieces that you must keep together and cut and paste. It ruins the workflow of ACID which is PAINT.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: coolout

Date:2/17/2005 10:21:24 AM

first of all...i never use the paint tool...only the draw and selection tools.

that's probably why you prefer the sonar method.

you're right, the paint tool in acid isn't like sonar. in acid it just drops the loop in the timeline as is, which is why i rarely use it.

BUT...

i have the key commands memorized to the point it's instinctive.

it doesn't ruin my workflow to take a bassline loop, hit the S-key to split, highlight the slice and change the pitch using - or + on numeric keypad, change to the selection tool and select the whole loop, hit control-c to copy, and hit control-v to paste anywhere i want.

i know it's sounds complicated but it took me longer to type that out than it would for me to do it.

for me it's just like click,click,click...3 seconds and it's done.

it takes me basically the same amount of time to hit control-v to paste a loop in acid as it does to paint a loop in sonar, so i never have to solo the track and re-render as you say.

you're just using the wrong tool in acid...just stop using the paint tool.

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:2/17/2005 2:09:07 PM

Let me be the Cubase defender you expected to hear from!

I use both Acid and Cubase. I agree that Acid is easier for loop-based composition, mainly because of the preview window - you can try loops in time and in sync with whatever else is running. It's very quick and easy.

I am using Cubase SL3. It is rock solid. I think the audio engine is better than Acid - playing back Acid loops at different tempos produces better results in many cases than the Acid audio engine (less flanging, glitches etc). Acid is pretty good though.

Good things about Cubase:

- for MIDI recording and editing, it kills Acid. Drum editor. Score editor. Full control over quantisation.
- controllable by external devices such as Yamaha 01X (which I have). Acid as yet has no facility for external control - a big weakness IMO, expecially for live use.
- full automation
- hit-point editing of audio (like recycle) and time stretching (imagine beat-mapping a file with variable tempo and timing)
- full-featured mixer (a weakness of Acid)
- multi-track recording (not in Acid yet)
- umpteen other features that you need to work with to discover how important they are.

Like I said, I like Acid and use it all the time. Cubase is a professional DAW. If you only do loop-based composition, you might not need/like Cubase. If you need to do full "traditional" recording and mixing of MIDI and audio, you will find Cubase gives you everything you want.

I haven't used Sonar much. I trialled an earlier version, and liked the fact that it integrated with Windows, and the way it used Acid loops. Would be another good solution. Only question - does Sonar have ASIO support yet? It may have by now, it didn't when I tried it.

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/17/2005 4:42:32 PM

> you're just using the wrong tool in acid...just stop using the paint tool.

You misunderstood me. I use the term “paint” in the most generic way. I actually very rarely use the paint tool. This is not about the “tool”. This is about the ACID workflow of limiting me to only having one wave file on a track so I can have the convenience of “drawing” loops where ever I want them while in other applications I have to cut and paste. Once I slice up a loop into 5 pieces to make 3 pitch changes, I now have to cut and paste 5 pieces all over the place. If I want to change the pitch again, I have to RE-EDIT 100’s of slices!!! What did I gain? Nothing. I’m cutting and pasting like other apps. SONAR allows you to modify the pitch of individual beats WITHOUT having to slice the loop into tiny little pieces. It remains a whole loop. I don’t have to “click, click, click”. I just use the loop with whatever tool (draw, paint, or otherwise). Modify it, and all instances are modified. This to me is a GIANT step forward in workflow and something ACID should consider adding.

It’s OK if this doesn’t bother you. It bothers me because having cut up little pieces of loops all over the place means I have to select multiple events every time I want to move something around or I have to cut and paste every time I want to extend a loop or modify hundreds of slices if I later change my mind. Hopefully when Melodyne UNO comes out we will have a plug-in that will allow us to manipulate whole loops in incredible ways.

~jr

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: coolout

Date:2/17/2005 5:36:02 PM

JohnnyRoy , i think i understand what you're saying. we just have a different preference for workflow. you enjoy the ability to modify the pitch in the middle of loop and have it as part of properties of the loop. that way if you need to change the pitch again you just change at basically a "property" level and all the audio would follow suit.

i've been using samplers for composition since 1988. my music has all been made up of 100s of slices...it's like a warm blanket to me.

you bought acid to get away from cutting and pasting...i got acid FOR the cutting and pasting.

trust me, holding down the ctrl key while hitting c and v is no big deal. if you want to change the pitch in that bassline again you just start over and take 5 seconds to cut and paste...5 seconds...big woop. try doing it with a hardware sampler and a midi-only sequencer. 5 seconds vs. 10 minutes

even if it takes you 3 seconds less to go into the loop properties in sonar and change that note versus in acid, you're only looking at a difference of seconds.

after 15 years of using hardware samplers i prefer everything to be as seperate and as non-destructive as possible. (one of the reasons i never use sound forge) i don't want different samples on the same track or to muck around with loop properties. i prefer to see each slice and it's pitch.

the current acid workflow suits me perfectly. it's a whole lot easier than it used to be.

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: thirdnostril

Date:2/18/2005 7:51:38 AM

"SONAR will let you pitch shift individual slices of a loop (e.g., a single bass note in a loop) which even ACID can’t do without splitting the loop on the timeline, soloing the track, and re-rendering it to a new file."

I don't think this is so. All you would have to do in ACID to pitch-shift one bass note is zoom in, use the S key to isolate the note, and pitch-shift the one-note snippet by selecting only the single-note snippet and pushing + and -.

Or am I misunderstanding what you were talking about?

PRAISE "BOB"

Subject:RE: Multitrack/Vegas/Presonus Firepod

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/18/2005 2:36:44 PM

> Or am I misunderstanding what you were talking about?

You are misunderstanding me. If I pitch shift on the timeline as you suggest, that only shifts that one note. I now have to cut and paste several events to duplicate the pitch shift all over the timeline. What SONAR does is the equivalent of going into track properties and selecting a subset of the loop and pitch shifting that. Now whenever you draw the loop on the track, it will be the NEW bass part with the shifted pitch, not the old bass part that I have to start splitting to pitch shift.

As coolout points out, its just a matter of workflow preference. Both achieve the same objective. IMHO, SONAR’s way is more elegant and I would like to be able to do this in ACID.

~jr