Subject:OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Posted by: danika

Date:2/10/2005 12:16:16 PM

I have several plug-ins in a chain with the Wave Hammer being the last one. The output on the Wave Hammer panel shows clipping, but the main output meters do not. Does that mean the output going into the Wave Hammer is clipping? Is that OK since it's not the final output?

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:2/10/2005 7:51:55 PM

Which meter are you looking at in Wave Hammer? If you have the output meter selected in the Volume maximizer tab, and Wavehammer is the last plugin in the chain, then that should have the same read out as what's in the Sound Forge meter.

If there is clipping in any of the peak meters, then this is not good and is an indication that you are distorting the audio signal somewhere within the chain. So to answer your question NO this is not OK. There's a signal chain of processing going on here. If you introduce distortion in the beginning stages, then that distortion will be maintained in processes following this.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: danika

Date:2/10/2005 9:04:07 PM

>Which meter are you looking at in Wave Hammer?

The input meter on the Compressor tab.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:2/11/2005 6:22:19 AM

If you're looking at the input meter on the compressor, then you are distorting the audio signal from the plugin processing prior to wave hammer. Also, the compressor and Volume maximizer are actually 2 diiferent processes within the same chain. So if you distort the signal in the compressor section, that distorted signal then feeds the input of the volume maximizer.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: jorgensen

Date:2/11/2005 9:51:16 AM

You can overload PlugIns in the chainer as much as you like without distortion - as long the following is observed.

1 - The PlugIn chainer is running in 24-bit (IEEE float) - lower right corner in the chainer window (prior to SF7).
2 - All the PlugIns support 32-bit floating point (most does)
3 - The level is lowered at the final stage to avoid distortion when converted to fixed bit length.

You may also overload processes and effects, as long as the 'use floating point temporary files' in preference is checked.

You can use Wave Hammer or any other limiter to avoid the final overloading, and add some dither.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: danika

Date:2/11/2005 4:34:56 PM

>You may also overload processes and effects, as long as the 'use floating point temporary files' in preference is checked.

Thanks. I suspected that might be the case. I come from a Cubase background and they always like to point out that since they use floating point processing you can drive intermediate channels over the 0 db line.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: MJhig

Date:2/11/2005 10:21:58 PM

I'd like a definitive answer from Sony/Peter on this myself.

Coming from an analog background I''m very accustomed to gain staging. I tend to agree with Red although Jorgensen has posted his point of view many times here and I get the floating bit scenario digitally. However since I don't have a clear definitive answer from this app's. builders I avoid overloading plugins in the the chain.

If Jorgensen is correct where pluggins supporting 24/32/64 bit floating point, there would seemingly be no need for you to waste time and money incorporating input meters in pluggins at all.

Please Sony/Peter, give us a definitive answer to clear this up.

MJ.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: danika

Date:2/12/2005 10:50:56 AM

>I'd like a definitive answer from Sony/Peter on this myself.

I agree it would be good to hear it from the source.

However, I did try this experiment: I generated a sine wave, normalized it to 0 db, and then set up a plug-in chain with the volume plug-in at +6 db and the compressor in the Wave Hammer at a threshold 0 db and the volume maximizer at a 0 db threshold and 0 db output level. Did a Process Selection and looked at the waveform. No clipping.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: Sonic

Date:2/12/2005 10:52:19 AM

The plug-in chainer runs at 32-bit floating point internally (assuming all inserted plug-ins support it).

If "Use floating point temporary files" is enabled. ALL data generating/altering processes, chainer or otherwise, store their results in floating point (32-bit float for 24-bit PCM and down, 64-bit float if you happen to be using 32-bit PCM). The penalty for this, of course, is that when you actually save the file back to a PCM format, it will take a little more time for the conversion and certain quick saving shortcuts will not be possible.

I'm not Peter, but I have it on good authority that this is the case ;-).

J.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:2/12/2005 9:52:57 PM

Yep, I did the same test as danika, and got the same results of no clipping although intermediate stages showed I was way over clipping on their meters.

Subject:RE: OK to Clip in Plug-In Chain?

Reply by: jorgensen

Date:2/12/2005 11:40:01 PM

I have done technical experience with this type of overloading, and found no distortion problems. You may search this in the Vegas forum, and I assume the chain in SF is similar to Vegas.

However, the problem with ignoring level settings in the FX chain, is if you have a compressor in the chain. If you have done a lot of work to have the compressor work perfectly on the sound, and you make some adjustment before the compressor changing the level to the compressor, the compressor sound is affected.

I have not yet find the perfect solution to this, except having the compressor in the beginning of the chain, but this doesn’t match my way of audio thinking.

Maybe some kind of a history meter inserted before the compressor, could be a solution.