Subject:X-Y scope software

Posted by: AFSDMS

Date:11/24/2004 4:02:11 PM

For years I've used an oscilloscope as another tool to look at stereo mixes. (I put the two channels into the X and Y axis amps.) Still works fine, but I was wondering if anyone has experience with software versions of this or a specialist hardware device. They used to make dedicated versions of these for prosumer audio systems in the 70s, but I haven't found one.

Wayne

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:11/24/2004 7:30:53 PM

I've got one in my archives, used it many times for classroom demonstrations. I'll find it and see if it's still available for download. Stay tuned.

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:11/24/2004 7:50:42 PM

OK , here it is.
http://polly.phys.msu.su/~zeld/oscill.html
It hasn't been updated since Win95, but as a standalone it should (?) run in newer environments.

If anyone has a newer/better one, I would like to hear about it.

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:11/28/2004 6:38:08 PM

How would you use an oscillascope? You basically get this information when you record audio into soundforge with the wave editor window view. Now if you're looking for standalone spectral analyzers, there is one in Sound Forge also, but there are better stand alone ones like Spectra Pro from Sound Technologies. www.soundtechnology.com

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:11/29/2004 8:15:37 AM

Back in the seventies, every studio had a couple of dual trace o'scopes working full time during recording and mixing. They provided realtime gain and waveform monitoring during recording, and phase chasing and accurate stereo balance and separation monitoring during mixdown. If a musician's amp was clipping or a mic was out of phase we would know it instantly. I don't know what wmunn has in mind, but his mention of XY mode makes me think it's for stereo balance. Firing up the scope on my computer reminded me how spoiled we all were by true realtime monitoring and how blind we are with the traditional computer gain "bars." In the hands of real pros, analog magic could be created. I still wonder how they pulled off some of the spatial effects on the early Pink Floyd albums.

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: AFSDMS

Date:2/7/2005 7:27:26 PM

Sorry I didn't see your question. You don't use the 'scope's timebase for this, you put the inputs into the X and Y axis. In my setup the Left analog signal makes the dot move horizontally and the Right analog signal makes the beam move vertically. They make dedicated hardware devices specifically for this purpose.

The pattern on the 'scope, at least to my eye, gives a feel for the 'spatial' relationship and fullness of a stereo mix. When the channels are identical, AKA 2-channel mono, the display is a 45 degree line whose amplitude changes with volume. As the content between the channels differentiates the pattern gradually widens into a mad 'ball of yarn.' If much of the material is out of phase you begin to see the pattern converge into a line that is perpendicular to the line when you have a mono in-phase signal.

It is just another visual cue for me that I refer to when doing post-production mixes with Vegas. Of course when I graduate to 6.1 or whatever I guess I will have to learn how to display data in multiple dimensions (6 !?) or use chemicals to augment the effect.

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: AFSDMS

Date:2/7/2005 7:53:04 PM

Thanks for the pointer to the 'scope software. Took a bit of experimenting to get it set right, but it works pretty darn well. Amazing that the .EXE is only 94k when unZIPped!

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:2/8/2005 10:28:47 AM

You're welcome. From your response, it seems we may be of the same generation.

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: MarkWWW

Date:2/8/2005 12:32:54 PM

Ah, I understand what you're talking about now.

The posh name for this is a Goniometer. When used as a stereo image analysis tool it is conventional to orient things so that when the left and right channels are identical the display is a vertical line (i.e. the image is rotated by 45 degrees from the configuration you describe).

There is a very nice Goniometer incorporated in the Digicheck software for the RME series of soundcards (have a look at http://www.rme-audio.com/english/digicheck/totalyser.htm for details).

Alternatively, for use with other soundcards, PSP Audioware have one as part of their DirectX/VST PSP StereoPack plugin suite which you can see at http://www.pspaudioware.com/plugins/stereopack.html. I expect it would work fine with SF though I haven't tried it myself (I have an RME card so I have one built-in already). There's a free demo to download and it's only $24 if you decide you like it.

Mark

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: dwhopson

Date:2/8/2005 3:53:53 PM

Hi,

If I'm not mistaken, AEA (audio engineering associates) makes a stereo phase scope for the exact purpose you are looking...viewing your final two-track stereo image. I think it was called the "Winkie-Blinkie". They have some great custom pro audio equipment and mic stands.

Check them out at www.wesdooley.com

dwh

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: AFSDMS

Date:2/9/2005 5:51:11 AM

Speaking of same generations :-) . . .I recently got reacquainted with Firesign Theatre. Had thought for years of taking my old discs and putting on CDs, never thinking those would be re-released. It's fun to return to their routines and discover than many hold up well over time, even if the room isn't smke-filled :-) They also have some newer work (Boom Dot Bust-1999) that is very creative and obviously evolutionary. These guys have been getting back together for almost 35 years. They most recent picture I saw of them reminded me of one of the remaining "Stones." They look like escapees from a geriatric asylum.

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: AFSDMS

Date:2/9/2005 5:55:00 AM

They have some neat gear. I love the classic mike repros. Their stereo phase display looks nice, but I don't think I'll be able to pop for the $1,500 + :-)

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: AFSDMS

Date:2/9/2005 7:24:32 AM

Hmmm, my Google of "Goniometer" at first came up with hits for it as a device of XYZ axis measurement of 'joints' as in humans mostly. I added audio and finally found that flavor. They seem to be two very different devices.

I like the idea of the display so that center mono is a vertical line. More intuitive. It would probably look too tacky to prop my o'scope at an angle :-)

Thanks for the other pointers. There used to be a dedicated pro-sumer device in the 70s or 80s that used a small CRT. Because of the persistance and the resolution I really do like the idea of the stand alone device. That last plugin you mention might be nice it I could set it to always be on top of my Vegas or SF instance.

Cheers!

Subject:RE: X-Y scope software

Reply by: MarkWWW

Date:2/9/2005 10:54:51 AM

Yes, goniometer literally means "angle meter".

As you say, the name is used for devices that measure physical angles (e.g. limb joints) and also for devices that measure notional angles (e.g. phase angles).

Mark