Subject:Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Posted by: TRANCEBOY

Date:2/6/2005 9:46:42 AM

I am finding the midi hanging notes to be happening with a LOT of softsynths, I can't pin it down cause it happens 50% of the time, especially when changing presets.

Acid Pro 5.0a.
can anyone else reproduce?

Also, I am finding if i am automating ANY dx plugin created with the dx wrapper at www.directixer.com

if looping, once acid hits the end of your looped region ang goes back to the start, automation doesn't work till you hit stop and play again.

The reason i am wrapping these vst plugins as dx versions is because they dont have the automation flag set up properly so their automation paramters in vst mode dont get shown to acid, but ithe dxwrapper picks them up.

I also tested a vst effects which automates perfectly natively in acid, to see if that was the problem, and that also has the looping bug when wrapped as a dx.

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/6/2005 12:36:53 PM

Can you provide a couple of examples out of your "a lot" of VSTi list claim? Being specific is far more helpful than just say thing like "lots" or many, etc,etc.

Which VST plugins are not exposing their automation parameters when used natively in ACID?

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: TRANCEBOY

Date:2/7/2005 3:01:41 AM

ok, refx beast, refx slayer, ukmusic ukas, Big Tick Angelina, that was in the last 5 minutes.

the vst plugins that dont show their paramters are some older ones. sc resonator, humanizer, ultrafunk modulator (pre cakewalk ownership version)

all legit.

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: TRANCEBOY

Date:2/7/2005 7:01:05 AM

By the way I just did some more tests (dx automation), with the cakewalk adapter the automation works perfect so it is definitely a problem from either side with the directixer wrapper.

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/7/2005 7:32:25 AM

This is caused by a problem with how the Plugin vendor has interepreted the VST spec. If the plugin vendor wants to expose a param as available for automation, then it must respond to a specific request by the host on a per parameter basis.

We don't expose these params if the plugin does not tell us to.

Oddly, the plugin vendor has to explicitly change the VST SDK base code to NOT expose params for automation.

Of course, in the incomplete and ambigious spec known as VST, even Steinberg interprets this differently from version to version. Currently Steinberg ships a few plugs that explicity tell us not to expose the params for automation. However, when used in Cubase, they are exposed.

The spec says one thing, but the Steinber hosts do another.

Yet another mess from a spec that refuses to become complete and standarized. It would just be nice for Steinberg to actually document everything and define behavior once and for all. Unlikely though, because that means they would then have to follow their own rules.

Sigh...

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:2/7/2005 8:30:44 AM

> The spec says one thing, but the Steinberg hosts do another.

One solution is to add a parameter in the Options > Preferences to Strictly adhere to VST spec. If this is unchecked then you expose everything just like Steinberg does beating them at their own game (it would be checked by default).

~jr

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/7/2005 9:46:58 AM

Already thought of this.

Problem is there is no definition of what a "Strict" compliance would be.

The VST spec is subjective, which makes it the worst type of spec.

Steinberg has no reason to change this.

Hopefully with Yamaha somethings will improve, but I am not counting on it.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/7/2005 10:23:55 AM

WRT the hanging note problem:

Is this when you preview from the Piano Roll, Chopper, or when you play from the main time line?

I have reproduced a case where notes hang with some VSTis when previewed from the Piano Roll, List editor, and the Chopper.

The problem does not occur when playing from the main time line.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: TRANCEBOY

Date:2/7/2005 2:24:12 PM

pianoroll and with my keyboard, but yes not from the timeline. good, we've found it.

Also, I have some other concerns:

This is in regards to multi plugins, such as quantumfx, sfxmachine, Luxonix LFX, etc.

basically plugins that have multiple plugins within a "shell"..so you load up the main plugin and then choose your subplugin. in all hosts I have tried, including sonar, cubase, and logic, the automation paramters change to reflect what particular sub plugin you have loaded..not so in acid pro. it loads with the aut parameters for whatever the default plug in is, and doesn't adapt as you change plugins. Could you please look into this. Luxonix LFX is freeware at www.luxonix.com the others are payware and very good plugins at www.sfxmachine.com and www.quantum-fx.com


Lastly, is there any plans to incorporate a way to tidy up the vsti list when choosing a softsynth? I mean i only have around 25 as it is and i have to use a microscope everytime to find the one i want....there must be a better way, even more spaced out for one, or plug in management like for the other plugins.

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: MikeDee

Date:2/7/2005 7:45:59 PM

Hi, Peter -

I have ACID Pro v5, Build 265. I've already purchased, downloaded, and installed the [full] upgrade. So I'm more than just a bit interested in learning where I can obtain v5.0a. I don't see it posted anywhere on the MediaSoftware.SonyPictures site.

Is this update generally available to registered users, or is it being deployed only to users with specific issues? (In other words...if mine ain't broke, I shouldn't fix it?)

Perhaps this update might clear up the one issue I have:

As I click on a loop to preview it, then go onto the next, then another...all of a sudden, the program locks and a steady (loud and almost buzzy) tone sounds through the speakers. I immediately have to shut down and reboot. Then all is well...until the next time this happens.

Do you think that v5.0a might clear up the above issue, Peter? Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Mike E. Dee

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/7/2005 10:22:25 PM

We have not released an update to the intial release of ACID 5. We are working on one, but it is not ready yet.

What kind of audio card are you using?
What drivers are you using? ASIO? Wave Classic?

Does it make any difference what file you click on? That is, it is completely arbitrary before the lock up?

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: MikeDee

Date:2/8/2005 2:44:34 PM

Hi, Peter -

I'm using the Echo Layla 24 PCMCIA audio card on a Sony Vaio PCG-GR300cto (PIII 1.6, 512 MB RAM).

I'm using the ASIO drivers with ACID Pro 5. They appear to be quite solid. Also, there is virtually no latency when I play the software synths from my MIDI keyboard. (The PureWave driver introduces latency of about 500 ms.)

It makes no difference which file I preview. It has never happened on the first one or two files I click...it happens somewhere down the line...randomly, or, as you mentioned, "arbitrary before the lock up." In fact, just to make sure I wasn't clicking "too fast" on files, one after the other, I tried working very slowly:

I clicked a file and let the loop play through at least once;
I clicked the Stop button;
Then I clicked another file (and repeated this process).

After about the...oh, I dunno...fifth, maybe sixth file, the loud noise came and the system locked. I had to press the computer's power button to shut down. All appeared well after rebooting. In fact, I got lucky for the remainder of the session...no noise, no lockup. :)

Thanks for your help!

Best regards,

Mike E. Dee

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/8/2005 6:17:35 PM

I doubt it has anything to do with the Echo. Their drivers are typically top notch.

You should be able to configure the Echo and ACID to get better performance from the PureWave driver mode. Set the Echo Purwave buffer size to say 128 or 256. Then goto ACID's audio prefs and set it to use the Wave Classic Driver and set the defaults to use the Echo ports.

Apply, and then click Advanced.

In the advanced page set:

Audio Buffers to 2 or 4
Buffer size : the same setting you made for the PureWave driver buffer size. Click Ok.

This will force ACID's hardware i/o engine to work as close to the Purewave buffer size as possible.

FWIW:
What you are hearing is a stuck buffer in the ASIO driver. Basically when the crash occurs the driver is just stuck playing the last buffer it had. ASIO is not part of Windows, so the OS has no way to shut it down.

I will pound on the explorer preview.

Q: Do you have the Media Manager enabled in ACID?

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: DJ_Don

Date:2/8/2005 8:34:42 PM

To throw my hat into this--My Novation V Station sticks all the time. It doesn't crash Acid, it's just that when I stop playing whatever MIDI loop is routed to it, the notes hang. If I mute the V Station at the bus, that seems to clear it up. On the other hand, my Native Instruments Pro 53 is quite stable--it doesn't seem to act up much at all (FWIW, I bought this because I liked the lite version that came with Acid 5. I may get the FM7 as well). My Arturia CS-80V is a bit unstable, but I think it may just be a system hog, and my PC isn't exactly screaming fast. Just my $.02.

Peace.

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: MikeDee

Date:2/8/2005 9:43:04 PM

Thanks for the info, Peter. I'll definitely give it a try.

Yes, I do have the Media Manager enabled. It does not appear to be causing any issues...looks good. I'm sure I'll put it to use once I get around to taking a closer look at it.

Best personal regards,

Mike E. Dee

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/8/2005 11:48:02 PM

You might try running with the Media Manager turned off from the General Prefs page. I just want to eliminate this as a possible cause of your problem.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: thedenmaster

Date:2/9/2005 3:26:59 PM

Oh yeah...hangin notes with Albino Plug In (VST) almost every time...Tascam FW-1884...gotta hit the "off" button to get it to stop.....

Also...what about allowing us to send synch thru multiports? (or is that a strictly hardware question)

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: TRANCEBOY

Date:4/1/2005 6:43:47 PM

Hmm, this is getting worse and worse for me:(
With version 5.0a the hanging notes are unstoppable with EVEREY single vsti i try. This is a brand new system, not the mone I previously had the problems with. This even happens with the included NI express instr. It's easy to reproduce. I import andy midi file, assign it a vsti, and there are hanging notes when I hit stop, or if I have loop points set up, or change presets. It is unbearable, and makes it impossible to Use acid as a midi composition too. The only thing I can use it for at this point is audio loops. oh, the DLS sony synth doesnt have the problem. This is really driving me nuts.

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/2/2005 10:25:35 AM

Tranceboy:

Please email me. I'd like to get some of these MIDI files you are having problems with.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: TRANCEBOY

Date:4/2/2005 8:59:53 PM

I will do that, but I'd also like to know from anyone else here if they've experienced the same thing??

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:4/2/2005 10:51:48 PM

I have the same issue as Tranceboy but I'm so used to it that when a note is hanging, I right clic on VSTI's bus, and it stops.

Indeed, it does happens only in the piano roll. But I'm having notes hanging also when playing the instrument live, while the whole song plays or not.

I don't think it's midi-file related.

- The VSTi I'm having this issue (all synth up to date) :
Galaxy Steinway 5.1 (Bestservice.de)
The Grand (Steinberg)
Albino 2 (Linplug/Rob Papen - great synth btw)
Saxlab (Linplug)
BassStation (Novation)
Beast (reFX)
PlastiCZ! (reFX)
Pro-53 (Native Instruments)
Lounge Lizard (Applied Accoustics)

Ok, now another issue quite odd, related to this thread : Ghost notes

Explanation :
Most of the time, it happens with GigaStudio 3.04 rewired. But sometimes it also happens without it : when I record a track, I play my riff, press stop, and now there's "ghost" notes that have been written down in the mdi file, ghost notes that seem to be related to other midi file i've recorded. It happens after having working like 30 minutes on a song (arranging midi sequences, changing rewire synth's parameters etc...).

I thought this would be resolved with the 3.04 version of GigaStudio, but not at all. And my volume issue I posted recently neither.

PS : why don't you support VSTi like Steinberg Cubase does ? Didn't they give you the whole VSTi interpretation package ? Or didn't you ask them how they worked around this issue ?

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:4/3/2005 6:51:57 AM

> I'd also like to know from anyone else here if they've experienced the same thing??

I am not having this problem but I don’t use the Piano Roll Editor. I record live and chop to new track for my edits. Perhaps its just a bug in the Piano Roll Editor?

> Ok, now another issue quite odd, related to this thread : Ghost notes

yes, Yes, YES! This is the most annoying thing. I thought perhaps this was a problem with my MIDI interface but I’m so glad someone else is experiencing this. Sometimes the ghost notes are several bars AFTER I stopped playing. So I’ll play for 4 bars and I’ll get a 12 bar MIDI track with ghost notes out in bars 10, 11, 12.

I don’t have GigaStudio and it happens to me without using ReWrire. Just simple MIDI recording will cause it but there is no way to get a reproducible test case although it seemed to happen more with Mr. Ray 2 plug-in for me. Like you said, you just have to record for a white and wait for it to happen. And yes, the ghost notes sometimes have a melody that matches the parts you’ve already played. Most strange!

It happened several times when I was recording the MIDI chapter in the new VASST Introduction to ACID DVD and I had to stop taping the DVD and start all over. It is a very aggravating bug.

~jr

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/3/2005 7:25:19 PM

>>PS : why don't you support VSTi like Steinberg Cubase does ? Didn't they give you the whole VSTi interpretation package ? Or didn't you ask them how they worked around this issue ?
<<

Stienberg does not document how to develope a VST host, but only how to develope VST plug-ins. There is an official mail list server, but they focus on plug-in dev not host dev. You can ask, but you can't expect to get an 'official" response. You get a lot of differing opinions from plug-in developers, but a response from Steinberg is never expected.

I will look at the hung note issues that you have presented. Don't have all the VSTis you list, but some. You have tried this against ACID 5.0a I assume. If you have specific steps to reproduce the problems, that would prove helpful.

Recorded Ghost notes has nothing to do with VSTis. We are looking at that as well.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation Bug and Midi hanging notes

Reply by: TRANCEBOY

Date:4/4/2005 2:40:35 PM

Peter, did you still want some midi files?

It seems I am not alone, which is a relief.

I wouldn't know which ones to sen dyou cause it does it with every midi file I have (most of which by the way, have been exported from Cubase SX).