Subject:Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Posted by: kleb

Date:2/2/2005 9:32:25 PM

I've got Forge 7.0 and my record device is set to M-Audio Delta 66 Mon. Mixer. I thought SForge 7.0 was taking advantage of M-Audio's ASIO support? Can anyone please describe how my version (7.0) of SF communicates or connects to my audio hardware? What benefits will ASIO bring to SF 8.0?

-Kurt

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: MacMoney

Date:2/2/2005 9:54:09 PM

SF7 doesn't support ASIO.
SF8 will support ASIO.

Tony Mac

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:2/3/2005 5:48:05 AM

To add to what Tony said, ASIO will bing little benefit to Sound Forge because you can not record and playback at the same time. One of the only benefits is that if you only has ASIO drivers then you can use Sound Forge, I believe your M-audio card supports WAVE and ASIO, use the wave driver for Sound Forge 7.

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/3/2005 10:33:02 AM

There are some benifits:

The way Windows deals with WDM drivers can cause both problems with sample rate and bit depth. Windows' KMIXER can jump between the app and the driver and insert both resampling and "dither" into the mix. You have no control of this as Windows does what it thinks is the best thing.

The KMIXER can add a -6dB pad. This is to permit complete sharing of the hardware. It will prevent multiple clients connected to the hardware from overloading/ clipping the outputs

Basically, ASIO is a direct path to the hardware. What we send it as far as audio buffers is what is output.

Peter

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: spiderlegs

Date:2/3/2005 11:30:05 AM

I wonder how Soundforge will deal with latency regarding ASIO. Or really, I don't guess it will matter if you don't play and record at the same time.

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: kleb

Date:2/3/2005 12:50:50 PM

Thank you very much Rednroll and Peter!

Then Sound Forge 7.0 is utilizing WDM dirvers for the M-Audio Delta 66, even though ASIO is available for other applications such as Sonar 3 & 4. Is this correct? What about Acid Pro 4 vs 5? Vegas 5? If I have multiple apps running, then each app uses its own preferred driver? I'm a little confused about this setup, or KMIXER, but thanks again for the detailed help.

Kurt

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:2/4/2005 7:49:05 AM

when you go into OPTIONS>PREFERENCES>AUDIO DEVICE Vegas/Acid. You will see a drop down selection box for all the drivers available on your PC that ,Vegas,and Acid can choose to use. Classic Wave driver is the wave driver, Try not to use the Microsoft sound mapper, it's just an extra step between your app and the wave driver, that could cause problems. In Forge goto Options>preferences>wave, and you will see the available driver to select there for playback and recording. So yes, if your sound card installs both a Wave and an ASIO driver on your system, then the host application has the ability to select which driver to use.

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/6/2005 12:51:00 PM

WDM or Native wave, depending on the drivers supplied for the hardware.

A host app has to "support" a given driver model. Forge 7 does not support anything other than Wave MME - or Classic Wave as ACID and Vegas call it.

Out apps let you choose what you want to default to.

Note however that ASIO is generally not a driver model that can be shared between to apps running at the same time. Most apps provide a mechanism to "share audio ports" when the app does not have the active focus. However, if one of the tools you are using is actively using the port, switching to another host may prevent that host from playing back.

Peter

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: kleb

Date:2/6/2005 8:24:00 PM

VERY good information Peter! This is important, because we seem to be moving more and more into a multi-app world. I'm still trying to determine if Forge 8.0 ASIO support will benefit me at all. You mentioned Windows KMIXER, does this affect my setup with the M-Audio hardware using the Wave MME drivers?

Now I also need to jump over to the Acid forum (and Sonar) to discuss ReWire and how to best use it multi-app.

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/8/2005 11:23:16 AM

>>You mentioned Windows KMIXER, does this affect my setup with the M-Audio hardware using the Wave MME drivers?
<<

Depends on whether the MAudio drivers are true Wave MME or WDM using Windows emulated MME support.

Typically Native Wave drivers are not shareable between multiple hosts. Host will typically release the hardware or provide an option for this so that multiple hosts can share. However, if any host is playing, then the same port will not be available to other apps.

Native WDM drivers are typically shareable since the sharing is done inside the Windows KMixer. However, in order for this sharing to take place, the KMixer will select a sample rate that is suppose to be a common denomitar between the hosts attempting to stream audio to the hardware. What can happen is that the Kmixer can be dumb about it and insert a Sample Rate Conversion even though both hosts are working at the exact same sample rate. The KMixer can also mess with the bit depth. That is, you could be working at 24 bit in both hosts but the KMixer may open hardware at 16 bits and thereby dropping the bits you send it. Also, the Kmixer will introduce a -6dB pad such so it can assure that you don't clip/distort the hardware.

Peter

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:2/8/2005 10:19:23 PM

Everytime I read something about Windows and it's Kmixer, the Kmixer always seems to be screwing something up. Be it latency, and now sharing mishandling and deciding sample rates and bit debt. Wasn't echo able to bypass the Kmixer with it's "purewave" wave driver and still have a native Wave driver available to the app? How are we ever going to have a reliable DAW system when Microsoft keeps putting itself inbetween our audio software,sound card driver, and soundcard hardware just so some office manager can play windows media player in the background while clicking on sound files in MS Word? Damn it!!!! Somebody make an OS which is compatible with all the Audio software currently available and is streamlined and doesn't interfere with our audio tasks by adding a kmixer layer.

Thanks for the info Peter, good stuff.

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/8/2005 11:57:51 PM

Yes, the PureWave mode for Echo cards bypasses the WDM/Kmixer stuff.

Understand the MS is not focused on what we do. There is an absolute need for the types of things that the KMixer does for the average consumer of Windows. One sound card, multiple apps all able to talk to it at the same time. Mom and Dad user don't care about whether it is true CD quality or even care about 24 bit or sample rate conversion. They just want it to work. Microsoft is about the "web" experiance.

Ideally, there should be a way to get right to the hardware in a SIMPLE way. There is ASIO or Native Wave drivers.

There is also something called WDM Kernel Streaming. WDM KS allows one to by pass the KMixer and talk very closely to the hardware.

All have limitations.

The biggest advantage to ASIO is that it treats a 'card' or device as a collection of ports. Input and Output are synchronous operations with an ASIO driver. This is not the case with WDM KS.

Longhorn will be introducing a brand new model of audio i/o. We shall see what that brings to the table.

Peter

Subject:RE: Version 8.0/7.0 ASIO?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:2/9/2005 4:31:57 PM

For me, ASIO in Sound Forge 8 is exciting news. I just introduced a Yamaha 01X into my studio as the sole audio interface (it's a firewire/mLan device). The 01X drivers do support WDM, but I haven't been able to get reliable distortion-free performance from them (in common with many other users). I am wedded to Sound Forge, so I really need the ASIO support.