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Subject:re timig issues
Posted by: mactac
Date:2/2/2005 11:44:34 AM
basically, Acid is not capable of sending a stable midi clock. there are 2 issues: 1. because of lag issues, the acid midi clock will not start sample-accurate ... ie the midi & ACID will have different start times, so they will START out of sync. sometimes you get lucky & they start at the same time, but usually not 2. if acid has a loop (ie a repeat), and looping play is turned on, it will lose it's sync every time it hits the loop point these 2 problems are known by Sony & It's shocking that they have not been fixed, esp since they are on v5. These 2 bugs make the product completely unuseable in a larger midi setup, ie one where there are slave clocks. |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: pwppch
Date:2/2/2005 1:37:15 PM
I have tried to reproduce this issue with ACID 3, 4, and 5 and have been unable to. What hardware are you trying to slave to ACID via MIDI clock? What MIDI hardware are you using? MIDI clock or MIDI Time Code is not a sample accurate protocol. Other than your comments here, there have been no reported issues with MIDI clock and ACID. You stated we mention this in our readme or other document. Could you point me to this? The only known issues is a problem when using ruler offsets and MIDI Time Code. This will be addressed in the update. I'd like to address what ever problems you are having for the update. Any information you can provide in detail would help to facilitate this. Peter |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: mactac
Date:2/2/2005 2:15:30 PM
>I have tried to reproduce this issue with ACID 3, 4, and 5 and have been unable to. well it seems as though many other people have had this problem as well. >What hardware are you trying to slave to ACID via MIDI clock? take your pick. any of: Roland TR909 MPC2000 (which has an extremely stable midi clock) elektron machinedrum tr606 or tb303 through a kenton midi->din convertor doepfer maq 16/3 korg ddd-1 a roland electronic drum kit the tempo sync in my effects boxes, tempo sync on my lord lead RM1x ... etc. it's not the gear! >What MIDI hardware are you using? currently, a delta 10/10 and a midex8, both have midi interfaces. i have tried 2 others. >MIDI clock or MIDI Time Code is not a sample accurate protocol. yes, i am well aware of that (I've been doing this since 1984). however, it's not that it's not perfect, it's that it doesn't work. >Other than your comments here, there have been no reported issues with MIDI clock >and ACID. You stated we mention this in our readme or other document. Could you hahaha. that's funny (sorry for the cynical laugh, but i've gone through this probably 3-4 times with Sona and sonic foundry. the conversation *always* stats with "we've had no reported issues"..... and then eventually someone at your company admits there is a problem. I've spoken with your tech support at *length* about the issue when v4 was around. I ended up buying a new motherboard & midi interface because of it, and it didn't fix my problem. I spent $900. At the end of it all, the tech told me that it *was* a known issue. "no reported issues"....sheesh, i reported it myself *many* times via email & phone. Seems to me that internal company communication is the issue. Look in the readme for v4. it says "tracks can fall out of sync when using looped playback when routed to external midi devices". afaik, it used to be in the v5 readme as well. >I'd like to address what ever problems you are having for the update. Any information >you can provide in detail would help to facilitate this. sure. i want it fixed too! :) I can tell you this: - it is not my midi harware. it occurs with every piece of hardware i have. - it's not the interface, i've tried 4 (!) - it's not my computer. I've tried 2 different commputers with v5 & a 3rd computer with v4. - it is absolutely positively a flaw in the software. I own sonar and cubase & they are tight & have none of these problems. when i switch to acid, it fails. So, i'd like to know more about *your* setup. you say you have an acid file with a repeating section (ie looped playback), sending a midi clock to an external sequencer & it: - starts properly in sync; and - stays in sync after the repeats .. .is this correct? what seuencer/midi interface are you using? you are free to call me xxx-xxx-xxxx. i'll be around for the next hour or so. You get this solved & i'll bow down to you like a god :) Paul |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: H2000
Date:2/2/2005 2:51:40 PM
I didn't know about the first issue, but I recall having #2 problem myself in an older version (forgot which). I just haven't worked that way in a long time so I never realized the bug was still there! |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: pwppch
Date:2/2/2005 6:36:08 PM
You have a problem. I am trying to help. I have no doubt that you are an experianced professional and know all there is to know about all things related to MIDI and external sync. That is why I assumed you'd help me figure out what is wrong. Understand, if it didn't work for me, I would not need to ask you anything. Since it does work for me, I have no choice but to ask you questions. This is the first I have heard of your problem. I have been here since 1997, and have never had your issue brought up. Your posts date back to 2/2/2005, so I don't know much beyond your current posts. FWIW: The reference in our read me for ACID 4 is not related to MIDI clock or MTC generation, but a problem we had when playing to external MIDI devices. This was fixed some time ago. If you'd change your mind and want to help me help you, you can post back any time here and I will be here to work with you. You can even email me directly at phaller-at-sonypictures-dot-com My setup: MIDI interface - you name it, I will most likely have it. I specifically tested with a MOTU MTP AV MIDMan 8x8 and 2x2, Unitor Audigy's MIDI ports Echo's Mia MIDI (Why these? Because they are current installed in my rigs and I have them set up to test with very quickley.) Tested MIDI clock master to: Alesis MMT-8 Alesis SR-16 Motif 6 SONAR, Cubase, Vision, Reason, and other software on a second machine. Tested MIDI Time Code to: Motif Roland VS880 SONAR, Cubase, Reason, and other software on a second machine. ADAT sync box to ADAT hardware (MTC and SMPT to MTC conversion depending on the box I was using) Tascam DA-78HR All no problem. Lock right up and stay in sync as the loop. (MTC sync needs to be tweaked a bit depending on the device) Change the loop dynamically. Seek, etc. Works like it was designed and implemented to. (Of course for the physical "tape" like devices, the looping is time consuming and can take some time for the hardware to physically loop back or seek, but I had no loss of sync.) The MMT-8 also has some very strange "quirks", but due to its age I tend to be more forgiving of it than modern gear. Anyway, if you want to help, I will be here. Peter |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: MJhig
Date:2/2/2005 7:45:59 PM
Peter you are a saint. Good luck diagnosing without precise answers to your questions sir. Re: the MMT-8, LOL, I started with it sequencing backing horns, strings and some percussion in the mid '80s. Funny you should have one. I still have mine in a closet somewhere. I have fond memories of it totally erasing everything if one reached it's memory threshold with no warning. Everything was GONE! Add to those memories loading it's memory during set breaks via analog cassette tape and editing with it's 1/2" x 2" LCD... LOL. If the youngsters only knew... Anyway I hope you can get some accurate setups and steps taken to aid you in your colossal endeavor here. MJ |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: pwppch
Date:2/2/2005 8:14:35 PM
>>I have fond memories of it totally erasing everything if one reached it's memory threshold with no warning. Everything was GONE! << LOL! I orginally had the Yamaha filer thingy. The tape always ended up getting set on top of my Fender Bandmaster or the Peavey dual 12" cab, erasing the entire next set. (Not to mention the beer being spilled on it and my Rhodes.) Somebody found this thing for me at a second hand shop and I snapped it up. I still use it as a scratch pad - and to test MIDI clock sync. (I remember the days of CV sequencers saved to tape! Back when they played 2 whole notes at a time!) . This beast is easy to use. It is easier to use than my Motif. The manual is in the lid of the thing. No multipressing of keys. No mouse needed. Now, it is not as hip as my Korg i5M (if I only had a MIDI accordian)... I love these old boxes. Can be picked up for a song today and they can still do some pretty cool things when one isn't tied to his/her mouse. Peter |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: mactac
Date:2/2/2005 8:39:56 PM
i'm confused. I answered your questions exactly and precisely. If you doubt I have brought this up before, I will send you the emails back & forth with your support department. Like I said, in the end, I was told it was a known issue. I don't know what to say, or what questions i didn't answer. i told you my gear, my setup & my problem. what else would you like to know? please understand that I'm not angry at you, but more at sony as a whole because i went through all of this more than once already with no resolution. Remember, I spent $900 to fix this problem on your recommendation, only to find out it couldn't have solved my problem. THat's a lot of money. If you're prepared to help me resolve this & are convinced that it indeed is not the software, i'm prepared to put the time into it. Otherwise, I'm not too excited about going through the entire exercise again. As you can see, I'm not the only person with this problem. the person who started the MPC2000 thread is having *exactly* the same problem, as well as the "me too" in this thread. If you look, you'll find references to it on other discussion boards on the net as well. It seems to be common knowledge that this is a problem with other professionals in my field. surprising they all know about it & sony doesn't. Like I said, I reported this problem to you guys already via your support form & via the phone about a year ago. Imagine my frustration to hear "we've never had this reported". In any case, please let me know by private email (pwagorn@Pinc.com) if you're willing to help... if so, i'm all ears cheers paul |
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Subject:RE: re timig issues
Reply by: mactac
Date:2/2/2005 8:43:49 PM
ps: re the mmt-8. I've had a good 4-5 of these. most of the quirks can be solved with the updated ROM. they are still available on the net. the other major problem with them is that the button contacts get oxidized. cleaning them with alcohol makes them worse over time, but you can put new surfaces on them with some sort of liquid ... i can't remember what it was called, but it basically re-plates the contacts with carbon ..but this is very off-topic :) |