Subject:OT: Microphone recommendations

Posted by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 7:39:38 AM

Hi: I already have a proper sound proofed recording studio (mostly used for videoing execs' messages). I am in the market for a better voice over mic. I'd like to stay under 500$ and am not picky about brand names, just recommendations from the likes of chienwerks, RednRoll et al. I narrate scripts several hours per week and am looking for something better than my Shure SM57 and AKG C535EB.

burn.peter@syncrude.com

Peter Burn

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/27/2005 7:47:32 AM

In the dynamic mic category, the industry standards are the Electro Voice RE20 and the Shure SM7. Remember that your mic pre factors heavily into the quality you're getting from any mic.

drbam

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 8:01:01 AM

Please explain "mic pre factors".

I don't have an expansive knoweldge of studio ttype mics audio, despite working in pro video for 25 years and graduating from Columbia School of Broadcasting in 1982. I just read the scripts but now that I am doing so much VO work I want a better tool.

Peter

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: mpd

Date:1/27/2005 8:23:09 AM

He was saying that the preamp that you connect your microphone to greatly influences the quality.

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 8:26:50 AM

I go through a Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro, just installed it afte buying it two years ago. Oh, and I record to BetaSX or DVCAM as we have a room full of VCRs but nary a DAT.

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: Sonic

Date:1/27/2005 8:26:58 AM

Your choice of Microphone Preamplifier...factors greatly into the sound quality.

Many consider the Neumann U-47 and U-87 "holy grail" vocal mics. While they go for roughly 5x your price range, at least it gives you an idea of how high-end you can go...actually some of the fancier new models go for much more.

Here's an article on some other choices:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HNN/is_3_19/ai_114928353

J.

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 8:29:12 AM

Okay, I'll raise my ceiling to 1000$.

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/27/2005 8:40:59 AM

You don't have to raise your budget. Both the SM7 and RE20 can usually be found in your $ range. Although the U87 and other fine large diaphram condenser mics are wonderful for "vocals," most voice over artists and engineers prefer the RE20 and SM7 because these mics don't exhibit a proximity effect. In other words, you can work the mic in and out without an increase in the low end when you move closer. The basic character of the mic remains fairly constant which makes it more ideal for VO work. This being said, the better LDC mics sound quite stunning. Ideally you might try borrowing or renting each type and see what works best for you.

drbam

Subject:RE: OT: Microphone recommendations

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 9:37:03 AM

thanks for the help. I'm trying out an SM7 this weekend as well as some Apex and Samson the guy has in the shop. Leaning toward either the SM7 or KSM32 though.

Peter

Subject:APEX 460

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 12:18:31 PM

Have any of you tried the APEX line? I got a quote for one of these, price is 1/2 that of the SM7 and the dealer assures me the mics are similar. Thoughts?

Apex 460

http://www.apexelectronics.com

Subject:RE: APEX 460

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:1/27/2005 1:07:31 PM

Peter,
For voice over narration work that you're doing, 2 of the most used mics in the industry are the Neuman U-87 and AKG-414. Do not get a dynamic mic. A Dynamic mic like the RE-20 will not give you much more than you have now with the SM-57, besides a little more low-end.

What you need to look for are these features:
1. Large Diaphram Condenser mic
2. Switchable Bass Roll-off Switch
3. Polar pattern selection switch

The switchable polar pattern switch will cost a few more dollars, but makes the mic very versatile for other uses. If this feature puts the price outside of your budget then look for a mic that has features 1&2 with a Cardiode or Hyper-Cardiode single pick-up pattern.

Other good choices are the Audio Technica AT-4050, or non selectable polar pattern version, the AT-4030. A great mic for their price range. They do tend to add a little high-end frequency bump, which sometimes makes them undesiriable due to an increase in sibilance. I've also heard the Rode mics are good, but haven't used one. Just make sure they have the above 3 features I outlined. Shure also makes some good Large Diaphram Condenser mics.

Subject:RE: condensor

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 2:17:56 PM

point taken. Selection down to Shure KMS32 and Apex 460. Guess I should keep in mind that I never blinked when shelling out several thousand for Sony Broadcast wireless lapel mic kits. I think my Sony 672 was close to 700$, making the KSM32 actually quite reasonable.

Peter

Subject:RE: APEX 460

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/27/2005 3:00:18 PM

<< A Dynamic mic like the RE-20 will not give you much more than you have now with the SM-57, besides a little more low-end.>>

Well I'll have to completely disagree with Red on this one. My experience of the RE20 compared to an SM57 is that it is dramatically different. The RE20 sounds larger, smoother, and much more even across its entire spectrum than the 57. You can also hit the RE20 with "plosives" much more effectively than with a 57 (which doesn't handle them well at all). There's a reason the RE20 costs more than 5x that of the 57 and is still a hot selling mic, in spite of a ton of competition. I've found the LDCs to be a bit too sensitive for some VO work. With the right talent match they're wonderful, but with others, it can be a real PITA and takes a lot of work. If I were choosing just one mic for VO work, I'd go for the dynamic because they can work well with just about anybody. But since you're looking for a mic for your voice, then by all means, see if you can audition a LDC and compare it to the SM7.

drbam

Subject:RE: APEX 460

Reply by: philsayer

Date:1/27/2005 5:07:06 PM

Here in the UK, and noting your budget, the mike of choice would have to be the Neumann TLM 103 - retails here for around £500 - with present exchange rate, and allowing for other commercial factors, I'd guess at around US$800...? In my own v/o studio, I use the TLM 103 and its big broher, the TLM 193. The mike pre-amp in your Mackie is remarkably good quality - I ran a Mackie VLZ 1202 (bottom of the range!) for a few years, with no problems.

Ideally, use a cradle with the TLM 103. Robust, but a warm sound that you won't get from the RE20 - a mike I use for some on-air work I do. I agree, though, that the RE20 will accept more "abuse" in close-miking situations - so it'll be more tolerant of popping, for example. This may be important if you have non-voice-trained contributors using the kit.

Subject:RE: APEX 460

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:1/27/2005 5:17:44 PM

"The RE20 sounds larger, smoother, and much more even across its entire spectrum than the 57"

I'm not sure how much you're disagreeing with me on this one, because that's basically what I said as far as low-end response. The RE-20 is a large diaphram dynamic mic. It has a great low-end bass response as a large Diaphram dynamic mic should, thus it will make a Voice sound smooth and warm, because it has good response in those low-ends, and to help that more it has poor response on the High-end, thus making it feel even warmer. Many voice over people get very close to it to use it's good bass response, along with the proximity effect to give their voice much more deep end than it actually has. It works great for that, if that's what you're trying to achieve. It doesn't compare to a LDC for clarity though, which is needed for a VO to grab your attention and make it feel present (ie good response in the presence range 4Khz-7.5Khz).

Subject:Voice characteristics

Reply by: pb

Date:1/27/2005 8:37:05 PM

would it help if I mention that I have a very deep voice but have to deal with a slight syllibance problem arising from a gap between my top front teeth (too many Robustos and Coronas over the years, I guess). I have had all the formal training and have been doing VOs for many years. However, now that we have moved to CBT (computer-based training) applications that use very little video with VO and rely almost entirely on VO and stills, voice quality has become especially important. No problems with breathiness and am able to keep the levels consitent. However, after wasting a ton of time brightening up an hour's worth of narration recorded with a tired AKG, I decided it is better to buy a new mic.

I think the higher end Shure I mentioned earlier has the characteristics Red listed but then so does that Apex. As several have suggested, the onoy way to know for sure is actually try the mics so that is what I will do this weekend. The local music store owner is a friend of my wife and said I can borrow the Apex for a week to test it out in my studio at the refinery where I work during the day.

Thank you all for your excellent advice, I am no longer limiting my selection nor budget.

best regards,

Peter in northern Alberta.

Subject:RE: Voice characteristics

Reply by: drbam

Date:1/28/2005 5:59:32 AM

<<Thank you all for your excellent advice, I am no longer limiting my selection nor budget.>>

Please post back and let us know what you decide on and what you discovered during your auditioning sessions with the mics.

drbam

Subject:RE: Voice characteristics

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:1/28/2005 4:01:11 PM

Peter here's some technical background information, to help you make you make a better decision when looking for a Mic.

In choosing a Mic, you need to look at 4 primary characteristics:
1. Output Level- This is how much voltage the microphone will produce from the sound pressure wave. With a higher output level you will get a better signal to noise ratio, once the signal hits your mic pre amp stage.

2. Ruggedness- How much use and abuse can the mic take without affecting it's performance. Also how loud of a sound pressure wave can be thrown at it without damaging the mic.

3. Response/Sound Quality- How closely the electrical output follows the original waveform of the sound pressure wave hitting it.

4. Throw- This is how far the diaphram travel. Loud low frequency sounds have long wavelengths, which require the microphone to have a long "throw: to be able to reproduce them accurately.

The physics behind different types of mics and how they compare with the above characteristics. (Ribbon, Condenser, Dynamic)

All mics have a diaphram. The diaphram is the part that moves when sound pressure waves hit it. From this point it is the microphones function to convert the sound pressure wave hitting the diaphram, into electrical energy representation of the SPW to feed to a mic input.

The Ribbon Mic:
In a Ribbon Mic, the Ribbon is the diaphram. This is a small, thin piece of metal material attached to two anchor points. This ribbon is suspended between a magnetic field. When you move a metal conductive material in a magnetic field electricity is generated in that metal conductive material. In this type of mic, this is how Sound Pressure waves are converted to electricity, that then can be fed to a Mic input, where you can then record it. The lighter the material is of the ribbon/diaphram the quicker it will react to the sound pressure waves hitting it. Therefore, the more accurate it will be in reproducing the sound when converting it to electrical energy.

Pluses of a Ribbon mic:
As I previously mentioned the material of the ribbon is very small and relatively light in weight. Therefore, it has a very good "Response" to the Sound Pressure waves hitting it. Therefore it is very accurate in reproducing the sound pressure waves hitting it, when the energy is converted to electricity.

Minuses of a Ribbon mic:
1. To keep the weight of the diaphram minimal for good response, the material of the Ribbon is relatively small/thin. The voltage output when moving a metal conductor through a magnetic field is proportional to the surface area of the metal conductor. Therefore, the larger the area of the diaphram/metal surface area moving in the magnetic field, the higher the output voltage will be. Due, to this the Ribbon microphone puts out a very small voltage output level. Therefore, this decreases the sound quality being fed to the microphone input, which creates a poor signal to noise ratio.

2. Also as I previously mentioned the diaphram is a very thin piece of metal anchored between 2 points. If you bend a piece of metal enough, over time it becomes fatiqued and will eventually break, therefore the ruggeness is not very good.

3. If a loud sound pressure wave hits the ribbon it can stretch the ribbon far enough, where the ribbon can snap, therefore making the mic inoperable. This effects both it's ruggedness and Throw capability.

Summary of a Ribbon Mics Characteristics:
1. Output Level=Poor(worst)
2. Ruggedness=Poor(worst)
3. Response/Sound Quality=Excellent(Best)
4. Throw=medium

The Dynamic Mic:
The Dynamic mic has a round diaphram and attached to one side of the diaphram is a cylinder, which is wrapped with a coil of wire. This coil of wire is placed within a magnetic field. It's this coil of wire moving in the magnetic field with the movement of the diaphram, that produces the electricity within that coil of wire, which inturn converts the sound pressure wave to an electrical wave that gets fed to the mic pre-amp.

Pluses of the Dynamic mic:
1. There is a larger surface area of metal traveling in the magnetic field as compared to the Ribbon mic, therefore it produces a higher output level, giving you a better signal to noise ratio.

2. The throw of a dynamic mic is very good, because it's only limited by the amount of air space that is put behind the cylider/coil where it is allowed to travel. Therefore, it has a good bass response for low-frequency sounds with a lot of sound pressure level hitting the diaphram.

3. The ruggedness is excellent, because it's just a coil of wire moving within a magnetted field, with no delicate electronics that can be easily damaged when banged around and dropped.

Minuses of the Dynamic mic:
1. The coil of wire that increases the area of the metal conductor moving in the electrical field for better output levels, becomes relatively heavy in weight. So the laws of inertia becomes a factor, where objects in motion tend to stay in motion, and objects at rest tend to stay at rest. This therefore decreases the "Response" capabilities of the diaphram to move quickly which is required to accurately reproduce higher frequencies. So sounds with higher frequencies and transients, their transients tend to get rounded off, due to the inability of the microphone to react quickly enough.

Summary of a Dynamic Mics Characteristics:
1. Output Level=medium/High
2. Ruggedness=Excellent (Best)
3. Response/Sound Quality=Low(worst)
4. Throw=Excellent (Best)

The Condenser Mic:
Another name for a Condenser is a Capacitor. A capacitor is 2 metal plates seperated by an air gap. The functionality of a Condenser mic is based off of a Capacitor within a series circuit of a voltage supply, a capacitor and a resistor. The diaphram of the condenser mic is one of the metal plates of the capacitor. The other metal plate of the capacitor is stationary. Therefore when the diaphram moves due to sound pressure waves hitting it, the distance between the capacitor plates will fluctuate, which inturn makes the capacitance value change within the series circuit. This inturn makes the voltage drop across the resistor to fluctuate with the capacitance change. This voltage fluctuating across the resistor, therefore is an electrical representation of the sound pressure wave hitting the diaphram. Across the resistor is an amplifier, which immediately amplies the electrical audio signal. This is why a condenser mic requires phantom power to work. The phantom power provides the voltage in the Capacitor/resistor series circuit and also provides power to the amplifier stage within the microphone.

Pluses of a Condenser mic:
1. The condenser mic has an amplifier stage within the microphone, therefore is able to increase the output level immediately after the sound pressure wave is converted to electricity. Therefore, the condenser mic has a high output level.

2. The weight of the diaphram depending on the size of the diaphram and material used is relatively light. Therefore the response of the diaphram reacting to the sound pressure waves hitting it is very good making the sound quality/response better than a dynamic microphone. This means a condenser mic will be able to respond more accurately to reproduce high frequencies and gives it a good transient response.

3. There are electronics within the condenser mic which allows it to add multi polar pickup pattern swiches controled through the electronics, pad switches to decrease chances of distortion happening at the amp stage within the microphone, and also a bass roll-off selectable switch for close micing vs. distant micing situations. This makes the mic more versatile for micing different types of sound sources at different distances.

Minuses of a condenser mic:

1. The throw capabilities of condenser mic is limited because it's 2 plates of metal seperated by a very small air gap. Therefore if a loud low-frequency sound pressure wave hits the diaphram, it can cause the plates to bottom out due to the restriction of travel that the diaphram is allowed. This therefore makes the bass response less than the dynamic mic. The correction for this is to use a larger diaphram giving the diaphram more surface area to allow it to absorb more of the sound pressure wave hitting it. This is why I recommended a "large diaphram condenser" to increase the bass response for your VO.

2. The condenser mic contains many delicate electronics within it, including the diaphram plates seperated only by a few microns. This therefore decreases the ruggedness and abuse the mic can take. If someone by chance drops your new $1000 condenser microphone on the ground or gives it a good whack with a drum stick, well there's a good chance it won't perform as well as it use to.

Summary of a Condenser Mics Characteristics:
1. Output Level=Excellent (Best)
2. Ruggedness=Low
3. Response/Sound Quality=High
4. Throw=Low (worst)

Another consideration to be aware of:
The PROXIMITY EFFECT:

This happens when using "directional" microphones and "CLOSE MICING" a sound source (ie within 1ft of the sound source). In other words any microphone which has a Cardiode, Hyper-cardiode, Super-Cardiode, or Bi-directional pickup pattern. Or any non OMNI pickup pattern.

The Proximity effect causes an artificial bass boast of lower frequencies of 200Hz and below. It can cause up to a +15dB boast at about 75Hz, making the sound source sound boomy. To overcome the Proximity effect, the various microphones will use a few different techniques to reduce the artifical bass increase. In a dynamic Mic like a Shure SM57/SM58 it has a built bass roll-off. Therefore these mics are designed for close micing a sound source. If you use these mics for distant micing a sound source (ie greater than 3 feet), then the built in bass roll-off will automatically roll the bass off, making the sound source sound thiner than it normally is.

The Electra Voice mics have a pattened technology which is called "Variable D ports". These are small ports located on the mics handle of different depths with a foam material directly underneath them. These port lengths are tuned to the lower frequencies, intended to dampen the bass boast due to the proximity effect. These ports will reduce the proximity effect from the +15dB boast to a +5dB boast at 75 Hz when close micing. Therefore a mic like the EV RE-20 is also intended for close micing and again would reduce the bass response if used for distant micing purposes. What happens if the VO person using the mic doesn't feel comfortable with the distance you stand them at to make the mic sound good? Well if they step back, then they're getting a lower bass response than normal, and if they step forward they're getting an artifical bass increase due to the proximity effect. This makes the mic less versatile for doing VO work unless to decide to bolt the VO persons feet to floor in one position.

A condenser mic which has a bass roll-off switch in it becomes more versatile. Mics like the AKG-414 has a 3 position bass roll-off switch. The positions are OFF, 75Hz, and 150Hz. So the closer the sound source is to the mic, the more artificial bass is generated due to the proximity effect. So if the sound source is within 6 inches of the mic, you would use the 150Hz switch position, if it's within 1 ft, you would use the 75Hz position. If you are distant micing the sound source (ie greater than 3 ft.), then you would turn the switch off. This makes the mic more useful for different micing situations. Also, if you switch the mic pickup pattern to OMNI, then the mic is no longer subject to the proximity effect when close micing, therefore you would turn the bass roll-off swich off.

The RE-20 dynamic Mic in use example:
If anyone has ever watched the Howard Stern show on E!, you will see that Howard uses an EV RE-20. The RE-20 has good bass response due to being a dynamic mic and having a large diaphram,but has less high frequency response also due to those same elements. It is also subject to the proximity effect when close micing, which can make the voice sound boomy, a +5dB increase at 75Hz as I mentioned. All these factors can make the voice sound fuller/warmer in the low frequency range. It also makes it so the voice does not sound as present like someone is standing next to you talking, because of the decreased high frequency response in the presence range (ie 3.5Khz-8Khz). I mention Howard Stern as example, because if you ever watch him using that mic and he wants to make his voice sound sexy and more deeper, you will notice him put his lips right on top of the microphone. He's using the mic as an instrument by using the proximity effect to artificially increase the bass in his voice. Good for an effect, but not good if you want your recordings to sound boomy.

A lot to absorb there, but hopefully this helps you in choosing a mic for whatever application you're using it for and to know what the different features are and what the pluses and minuses are of each. In the most part this information should give you what you need to know in choosing any type of microphone regardless of the sound source, once you are familiar with the charateristics of the sound source and what you would like to achieve when recording it.

I'm open for questions :-)

Subject:RE: Mics

Reply by: pb

Date:2/13/2005 9:16:58 AM

Thanks for all the help. I bought a pair of KSM32s and am very happy with them. BTW: for those who have never heard of APEX, well, there is a reason. Wouldn't take one as a gift.