doing ADR, looping dialog replacement with vegas 5.0

JMacSTL wrote on 1/7/2005, 12:29 PM

I've been using Vegas 5.0 for as long as it's been available, and 4.0 before that. I"ve had quite a bit of good luck with this product. In fact, not only have my client not really noticed that it's not ProTools (I have formerly used ProTools and AMS Audiofile)...not only have I had great success with this product, but have also won another regional EMMY for work done on Vegas (sweetening, mixing and sound design for a national PSA). (I added this not to seek recognition for my work, but to show that Vegas can be a tool used in a professional studio with professional results). BUT..here is my one biggest complaint: doing ADR sessions. I've emailed Sony directly and I"ll share the response at the end of this post. Here's the dilemma:

Using an ECHO Gina card on a fast PC with 1GB RAM. WHen recording anything (such as ADR) whilst locked to time code (as is necessary during an ADR session) from a video tape (typically BetaSP or 3/4"), the audio track I've just recorded in sync with picture, upon playback is anywhere from 15-28 frames late. So each time I playback a recording, I have to nudge the newly recorded clip to be in sync with picture. I typically record the production dialog from the video tape onto an open track, for reference, but it's a pain. This is the one thing about Vegas that keeps it from being a true professional tool. (BTW latency in recording whilst NOT in external/time code lock is not an issue at all).

So then..Sony's response to this dilemma: "It is one drawback to the software that we are aware of". I haven't seen anybody else post about ADR sessions before.

Comments?

jmm

Comments

SonyEPM wrote on 1/7/2005, 1:14 PM

For ADR, I would advise capturing the video to your hard drive as DV. For 3/4" and Beta SP, a device like the SD-Connect (http://www.convergent-design.com/) is an excellent tool. It plugs right into Vegas, timecode is supported, you can also do layback to tape if needed.

Once you are working with digitized source files, your talent can then watch a computer monitor (ideally LCD) while re-recording the dialog, foley etc.

Do it this way and you'll always have perfect a/v sync, with the added benefit of no shuttle/cue up time as would be the case when slaving to a deck.

JMacSTL wrote on 1/14/2005, 7:18 PM

Digitizing to a QT movie or similar is a great idea. In fact I just recently purchase a Canopus ADVC 100 for just thie purpose (prior to this I would rely on one of our Avid editors to supply a QT movie for me). But in the case of today's session, for a recent feature film, the video tapes didn't arrive until 8:30am and my session started at 9am..so ithere was no time to digitze each scene. This is often the case when dealing with a large number of scenes to work on. I just don't think VEGAS can record audio whilst locked to external time code and then play it back in sync! I found that today, the audio just recorded was 26 frames late, so each take we did, I had to manually move the clip earlier by 26 frames in order to play it back for the clients. Needless to say, my right index finger is very very worn out. I recorded perhaps 100 takes during the course of the ADR session. I cannot believe there are so few people using VEGAS for this. Perhaps I should have gone for the ProTools system instead.

pwppch wrote on 1/15/2005, 2:11 AM

Vegas cannot lock/slave to MTC (SMPTE). It only triggers.

Unless your external source/master and Vegas are connected between a common clock there will be drift.

Peter

JMacSTL wrote on 1/18/2005, 7:39 PM

I do have my audio interface and my external VTR both referenced to house black (by way of work clock). You say Vegas cannot "lock" to SMPTE (by way of MTC) but only triggers...I understand the difference between locking to external time code all the time, and triggering, once valid time code is established....Vegas slaves to incoming time code during playback just fine. In fact I've mixed 60 minute long programs with Vegas "locked" to incoming time code and it never drifts. It's during RECORDING that this problem occurs.

pwppch wrote on 1/18/2005, 8:23 PM

OK, so triggering works correctly when playing, but if you are recording during trigger, the input is off.

What audio drivers are you using?
What is your buffer setting for your ASIO or Wave Classic driver?

Is the record latency consistent?

Have you attempted to adjust the record latency in the audio device prefs?

Peter

JMacSTL wrote on 1/21/2005, 12:43 PM

When you said "during recording the "input" is off....well, what "input" are you referring to..the MTC input? The audio input? Neither is off . Recording takes places whilst time code is being sent via a midiman Midi box (with SMPTE input), into the PC, where it is not MTC, and Vegas happily follows along with the incoming time code (Midi time code), even during recording...but after recording is finished, upon playback, the audio I've just recorded is now anywere from 10-26 frames late. The existing audio tracks are stilli in their proper places.
I"ve verified that I"m using the most recent drivers for both the Echo Gina soundcard and the Midiman midi port. I"m using Vegas 5.0d.

I have tried using auto latency compensate, and I"ve tried making the latency anywhere from one extreme to the other..and have not been able to make this solve my dilema.

jmm/STL

BTW: I appreciate your input and time spent chatting with me about this. Are you a Sony rep?

SonyEPM wrote on 1/21/2005, 6:06 PM

We understand what you want to do, and how you'd prefer to work, but I'll reiterate (especially since you have all the gear you need in hand): Capture the video as DV and this problem goes away.

Also, since you asked: Both SonyPCH and I are part of the engineering team.

farss wrote on 1/22/2005, 12:22 PM

Sorry to butt in here but I was under the impression that Vegas could chase TC.
From what I'm reading here that's not the case?
We were looking at recording from DAT or 1/4" with TC into Vegas, do we need to look elsewhere to do this?

Bob.

JMacSTL wrote on 1/23/2005, 9:08 PM

Yes Vegas (4.0 and 5.0 at least) will chase TC> I'm using a Midiman USB midi inteface, which accepts 1/4" time code input. It converts it to MTC (midi time code) and sends it on to the computer, which sees it as valid time code, and vegas happily chases (sees a valid time code number, syncs, and freewheels, but I've had it faithfully stay time code synced for up to an hour or more)...so it behaves fine. The prob. I've been having is with recording whilst locked to external time code. It works, but there is an offset when you try and playback what you've just recorded against the source tape. I will digitize from a video tape (Digibeta in most cases) and then playback what i've recorded, and the playback track is anywhere from 16-26 frams late. In most cases, it's not a huge issue....a pain, but not a big deal..I just highlight the clip i just recorded, and nudge it earlier by the req'd am't. BUT..when doing ADR, it's very inconvenient.

farss wrote on 1/23/2005, 11:26 PM

I can see why it's painful, about all I can add to is what's already been said, digitising the video would not only get rid of the problem but save a lot of wear and tear on some pretty expensive hardware. I know if you've only got minutes between when you get the tape and the talents wants to get going it's a real issue for you but I'm suspecting that at the end of the day you'll come out well in front just in the time saved rewinding the tape, add to that the time you loose resyncing and it sounds like throwing in a free breakfast for the rest of the crew while you digitise might be money well spent.
Bob.

CDM wrote on 1/25/2005, 7:47 AM

I have to chime in here. I record quite a bit of ADR with Vegas. In fact I've always used Vegas exclusively. If I had 3/4" or Beta decks (I rent them when needed, otherwise I have clients bring me files or mini-dv) I would STILL capture the video in Vegas and do the ADR from within Vegas Video Preview. It's SO much more reliable, so much faster and impresses the hell out of clients. You can use external monitor to watch the video on a flat screen, CRT, whatever. Or, you can display the Internal Video Preview on a second LCD and duplicate that to your booth monitor (which is what I do). It's tremendously reliable. Then you can just give them the audio as a file or audio CD. If you need to layback to a deck I guess I would go with EPM's suggestion above.

good luck