POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? -ACID Product Family

ACID Product Family

Subject:POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Posted by: Zacchino Date:1/19/2005 12:30:33 AM Click here to vote ! (opens in new window) PS : The purpose of this Poll is only curiosity : mine, and maybe yours. I'll keep this post up for two or three weeks to have enough results. Thanx in advance for participating !
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: DKeenum Date:1/19/2005 7:13:43 AM I am really interested in this. I have been trying home studio and tracktion, but I'm not completely satisfied with either yet.
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:1/19/2005 10:46:02 AM For my needs vegas is enough. For anyone who needs more midi I feel that sonar is the way to go. Someday when I can hopefully rewire vegas to acid I'll probably be hit by a bus! ;) Has anyone tried rewiring live and acid? Thats a multitrack too just so you know. Damn all the possibilities we have today. It almost keeps you from being creative because your always dwelling/tweaking/configuring ones "uber"DAW. At least myself. ;) Hope all is well. Ed.
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: kleb Date:1/19/2005 11:56:51 AM I didn't vote because you can't select both vegas and sonar. I use both!
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: Zacchino Date:1/19/2005 6:14:50 PM kleb : then vote the one you're using the more
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: MacMoney Date:1/19/2005 7:54:09 PM We use Pro-Tools TDM, Digi-001,002rack, and MBoxes. We ReWire Acid to PT. George Ware
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: Zacchino Date:1/19/2005 9:44:28 PM (hey MacMoney,I'm also planning on buying a 002, to use with Acid only... Not protools LE... Not till I've passed the learn curve with it ^^) About the Poll : I've posted the poll in many Acid related forums to have more votes. I'll give the final results in 2 or 3 weeks.
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: MacMoney Date:1/19/2005 10:39:10 PM Pro-Tools is easy! You'll be pissed that you took so long to make the move. George Ware
Subject:RE: POLL : Which Multitracker do you use with Acid Pro ? Reply by: gjn Date:1/20/2005 4:20:39 AM It is enough that vegas support the "rewire".
Subject:Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/2/2005 3:22:33 AM Here are the winners. My guess is that this poll is not very representative, as many voted for "Others"... I guess they where thinking about sequencers but not multitrack sequencer : 1. Other 29% (21 votes) 2. Sony Vegas 25% (18 votes) 3. Steinberg Cubase SX/Nuendo 16% (12 votes) 4. Cakewalk Sonar 14% (10 votes) 5. Digidesign Pro Tools 12% (9 votes) 6. Ableton Live 3% (2 votes) 7. Magix Samplitude/Sequoia 1% (1 vote) 73 votes total... You can keep voting, but I think we already have a good idea about the question : people like Acid's workflow style so they use Vegas as Multitrackers. Cubase SX and Cakewalk Sonar are the most used concurrent Multitracker. Pro Tools is not well known by Acid users, I guess because they didn't have the opportunity to test it (as you can't try it - no demo). Ableton Live, surprising or not, is almost not used at all by the one who voted. Anyway, my guess is that poll isn't succesful enough, and I can't establish any conclusion. For the one who wants to know more about multitrackers on PC and Mac, here's a good link : http://www.tweakheadz.com/comparing_cakewalk_logic_vst.html
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:2/2/2005 5:11:53 AM > My guess is that this poll is not very representative, as many voted for "Others"... I wonder how many of the Others were using Tracktion? I was surprised that Tracktion was not listed especially because Mackie just gave it away for free before Christmas and lots of people tried it and liked it. What might have been better is if the Other category had a write-in so you could tally them individually. > Pro Tools is not well known by Acid users, I guess because they didn't have the opportunity to test it (as you can't try it - no demo) I don’t think having a demo has anything to do with it. You can’t buy ProTools. You must buy hardware that comes with ProTools. That pretty much rules it out for me, I don’t need any more hardware. I have an M-Audio Firewire 410 which is better than their USB M-Box. So ProTools has limited their market to high-end customers that can afford their very expensive hardware or low end customers that can live with USB audio. It makes no sense to me. I also have a problem with ProTools not supporting DXi or VSTi but rather making up their own plug-in technology. I HATE companies that ignore industry standards and create their own. It just hurts plug-in developers that have to support yet another API and ultimately hurts customers with higher prices because developers have to create 3 or 4 versions of the same plug-in just to support these companies. Everybody looses. (don’t get me started ...oops too late. Looks like you already did) ;-) ~jr
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Martian Date:2/2/2005 5:48:50 AM Pro tools is nice but it is a jungle... I had so many compatibility problems that I had to sell mine :-) Acid though is a find to me. It is very flexible to work with compared to pro tools...I am a movie editor working on Avid and Pro tools. As others probably has thought: I wish that Acid would be made in a hardwareversion with some good AD/DA converters. A dream coming through some day? Well Who knows ;- ) Acid rules
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/2/2005 8:02:02 AM "people like Acid's workflow style so they use Vegas as Multitrackers. " I don't believe you can draw any conclusions from your results. You basically went to a Republican campain wrally and just polled the audience with a question like who did you vote for president. Is this the only foum you posted this poll in? Do you think it might be a bit biased asking Acid users in a Sony forum? I would have to think that users visiting a Sony forum, on the most part are already on the Sony bandwagon. There was a similar poll in the KVR forums and I believe Sonar ran away with the show follwed by Cubase. I challange you to goto the Cakewalk Sonar forum and take the same poll for users of Acid and see how your conclusion falls apart. Polls work in this way you get a large sample size, spread out randomly in demographics so that the poll is not biased. Your demographics is not spread out and is definatley biased. I would suggest you post your Poll in the KVR forum, where you get lots of audio users, using a wide variety of multitrack applications and let us know the results.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: pwppch Date:2/2/2005 9:15:23 AM >>You basically went to a Republican campain wrally and just polled the audience with a question like who did you vote for president. << LOL. Red, you are a hoot! Peter
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/3/2005 1:28:21 AM Ps : I posted the poll in KVR too (two or three days after posting it here), and I posted it in other Acid forums, etc... I didn't draw any conclusion man, I said i couldn't ^^
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/3/2005 11:50:22 AM What where the KVR results? I thought this was your conclusion that you posted: "people like Acid's workflow style so they use Vegas as Multitrackers. Cubase SX and Cakewalk Sonar are the most used concurrent Multitracker. Pro Tools is not well known by Acid users, I guess because they didn't have the opportunity to test it (as you can't try it - no demo). Ableton Live, surprising or not, is almost not used at all by the one who voted." Although, I would love to see Vegas run away a winner in multitrack audio app choices, these results are really no surprise as far as Ableton Live. Why would you buy Acid if you own Albeton Live? Albeton Live is a loop sequencer too right? So if you purchased Albeton Live, you probably previously decided what Loop sequencer fit your workflow best either it Acid or Live. So that tells us nothing as far as people owning Acid and using Live as their multitracker. Probably because live fits their loop sequencing needs as well as their multitracking needs. You should have also, put an option in for ACID as a choice of multitracking. Although, Acid doesn't allow you to record multiple tracks at the same time, it does have multitracking capabilities, where you can playback multiple previously recorded tracks, and record a new track at the same time. That in simplest terms by definition makes it a multi-tracking program, no matter if Sony says Acid is primarily a Loop sequencer. It's a Loop sequencer with multitracking features. Maybe those features aren't as enhanced as Vegas, but it might be just enough for people who want to arrange a loop bed, then add live guitar tracks one take at a time. So certainly, there are users that use Acid as their Loop sequencer as well as their multitracking app. I think your synopsis might read better like this: "People like Acid's workflow style so they use Vegas", because they run into the multitracking limitations of Acid when they would like to use features like input monitoring, and recording more than 1 track at a time. Thus, since they're familiar with Acid, they may chose to use Vegas, because Vegas doesn't have the same multitracking limitations they run into in Acid, and avoid a steep learning curve when choosing another multitracking software. If Vegas was the primary multitracker program used by most Acid users, then wouldn't you expect to see Sony either develop an "Export to Vegas Project" feature in Acid, or for Vegas to have an "Open Acid Project" option? They don't have that cross functionality, although the 18 votes in your poll have probably already asked for that capability to make their workflow more effecient. I guess 18 users really aren't enough for Sony to spend the resources developing and supporting that feature huh?
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/3/2005 3:25:35 PM I guess that Sony don't wanna fill the gap because they're aiming at two different customer species. Acid is for musicians, while Vegas is for vidéo. Multitrack in Vegas doesn't make Vegas a main composition tool. No matter how far you can go with it. That's one of the reason I don't understand whi multitracking isn't in their top of to do list. My guess is stability reason.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/3/2005 7:55:29 PM "Multitrack in Vegas doesn't make Vegas a main composition tool." I guess that would all depend on your composing needs now wouldn't it? If you' can only create music by using loops, then no Vegas would not be your choice of a composition tool. If you play live instruments with other band members, then Vegas is a composition tool. I use an external midi sequencer synced to Vegas, and record live instruments with my midi tracks after they're recorded as audio. I'll chose Vegas anyday for my music composing needs over Acid. Why? I can punch in and I can record more than one instrument at a time, but I guess you're right Acid is for musicians and Vegas is for video. I just don't have the nerve to call a loopologist a musician. I think a musician is someone that can sit down and play a musical instrument, so I'ld like to see anyone with a fist full of sample loop CDs just sit down and start playing me a song. " I don't understand whi multitracking isn't in their top of to do list." Are you on crack? Multitracking has been on their top to do list for more than 8 years with Vegas before video editing was ever introduced into it.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/7/2005 3:18:18 AM (sorry for the late reply) >"Multitracking has been on their top to do list for more than 8 years with Vegas before video editing was ever introduced into it." I was talking about Acid though... But I understand your point of view. Now tell me why they don't implement this in Acid... Wouldn't that be easy ? (and why do the dev. stay quite on that very subject by the way ?)
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/7/2005 7:11:58 AM "Now tell me why they don't implement this in Acid" That's a good question, and one I've asked many times myself. The answer I keep hearing is that Acid is a loop sequencer and not a multitrack application/DAW. Then I have to ask, why do you add a multitrack feature like playing back multiple tracks and recording a single track at the same time if Acid is not a multitrack program? Sound Forge doesn't have this ability and everyone knows Forge is a stereo editor and not a multitrack/DAW, yet why doesn't everyone realize Acid is not a DAW? Why does Acid give us the ability to route seperate tracks to seperate outputs on your sound card if it is not a DAW? Why did they implement surround mixing capabiliyies if Acid is not a DAW? The recording and playing back of a previously recorded tracks is the fundamental function of a multitrack.....yet we're suppose to not expect that functionality to be enhanced so that we can expand it to multiple inputs and input monitoring because Acid is a loop sequencer? I'm not sure of the logic behind this thought process, but I understand what you are saying. Don't even get me started about the similar reasoning about further enhancing Acid's midi sequencing tools, it's a similar story. The basic summary, is that Vegas is the multitrack DAW, Acid is the Loop based sequencer, and Sound Forge is the stereo wave editor. So if there's any cross simulararities as far as features, don't expect feature enhancements on the app, where that feature falls out of it's predefined niche. If you need a good loop based sequencer as well as a good full functional multitrack, then I guess that's why there is things like Rewire and midi sync. Just pretend the user interface of Vegas is not similar to Acid's and that it isn't so easy to envision Acid therefore getting, the ability to record more than one track at a time and also having input monitoring capabilities. I know, it seems kind of rediculous doesn't it?
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: pwppch Date:2/7/2005 7:27:08 AM Define what a DAW is. The things you list (and imply since ACID does these, therefore it must be a DAW) are not what define a DAW. Yes, DAWs do these things, but they in and of themselves don't define a DAW. It is subjective at best. ACID is what we define it to be. It is not a DAW, but yes, it has DAW like features. Peter
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: merlyn60 Date:2/7/2005 7:48:36 AM Rednroll: I for one would be more than satisfied if they would just gave us midi implementation (comparable to Logic, Cubase, etc.), vst support, and rewire in Vegas. With Vegas 5's ability to "kinda" work with loops, this would be heaven for me. If the Vegas loop ability isn't strong enough for you, you could simply rewire Acid to Vegas and your problem would be solved. Combine all of this with the multitracking, and the punch in/out of Vegas and you have a top notch well rounded DAW that kills almost every other app out there in learning curve and ease of use in my very humble opinion. Midi implementation shouldn't be a problem since the "Acid Paradigm" doesn't apply to Vegas. I can't imagine why this hasn't been done already. How about it Peter? =)
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: pwppch Date:2/7/2005 9:50:59 AM What would you have me say? Peter
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: merlyn60 Date:2/7/2005 10:24:40 AM LOL.....that you LOOOVE my idea and it will be discussed ASAP with the higher ups!! I can dream can't I? In the real world, I'd have you say whatever you could (what you think, feasibility, etc.).
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: MyST Date:2/7/2005 11:28:36 AM My best guess? Look for Vegas 6 to have rewire host capabilities. Acid is rewire slave capable now, so... Afterall, they want to keep the users inside of Sony software as much as possible, don't you think? ¢¢
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: merlyn60 Date:2/7/2005 1:01:06 PM From your mouth to the the Gods of Sony's ears! However, in my very humble opinion, solid midi has still got to be incorporated into Vegas, in addition to rewire, in order to make it comparable to it's peers. Hard to believe at this stage in the game that there isn't one product in the Sony audio line that has complete midi implementation (and when I say that I mean comparable to the Cubases, Sonars, and Logics of the audio world).
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/7/2005 5:33:33 PM About what RednRoll said... I agree, I just don't get their goal (yeah yeah, making a great loop sequencer, but that was Acid first release goal). Maybe that RednRoll didn't want to say DAW but simply "Audio Recording Software". Acid is out of date in this function, out of date compared to the other great one implemented in 4.0 and 5.0. Acid isn't the best loop sequencer anymore. Don't hide behind this marketing moto, because Acid isn't only the best loop sequencer. It's now the most intuitive PC sequencer ever made for Windows. But who knows about this one ? I guess not a lot of people. Maybe that we should blame Sony's marketing job. I also guess they didn't really understand what they've bought from Sonic Foundry (or maybe they just don't care, as far as it sells as much as before the acquisition - don't change a winning team, that what we say huh ?). Now, I've always wondered if they've ever really thought about it (making Acid a true multitracker). Have you guys done market researches ? What would the people who bought AP4 think about this quite obvious idea ? I'm sure they'd feel the same way. I just can't help feeling this restricted timing and budget that Acid, Sound Forge and Vegas are fighting with. I also can't help feeling that AP5 was written in a hurry with some 2-years-users-cryied-out simple functions here and there (except for Media Manager of course - that I don't use, but great job). But that's okay, I'm just a simple customer who's being asked why he has more than 70 odd tracks per projects (hey, maybe because I record multiple takes of vocals ? Or maybe because crossfades need to be done duplicating a track I donno ^^). If I was a develloper (that can be called "artists" IMHO), with this PURE GOLD into my hands that Acid is, I would have gone on war against these Cubase, Sonar, Logic & Iraq (where is my cowboy hat g*d damnit). But it seems that the gap is too huge now. Technology is going too fast. So let's stay a Loop Sequencer ^^. Ok I stop being sarcastic, but that's for the best.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: kleb Date:2/7/2005 6:56:45 PM "Acid... the most intuitive PC sequencer ever made for Windows" ...cue applause and fanfare! ...good discussion and right on topic!
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: MikeDee Date:2/7/2005 8:15:03 PM While ACID Pro [5] is arguably the best app out there for working with loops and the like, I still maintain that SAWStudio (www.sawstudio.com) is the best DAW, bar none. It does what Pro Tools does, as well as a number of things that Pro Tools can't...all virtually, without all that expensive hardware and DSP farm cards. And since we're in PC-land, not Mac-land, Pro Tools is not even considered competition (it is nothing like the Mac version). The only thing Pro Tools has going for it is the market share...thus, they have more plug-in support (particuarly TDM [again, on the Mac])...thereby making it the "industry standard." As a result, a number of high-end studios have Pro Tools to satisfy their high-end clients...yet they do their real work (which is more productive and better sounding) on SAWStudio. Of course, I don't expect you to take my word for it...so feel free to visit the site and download a demo. Nope, I don't work for 'em...I don't get any buck$. But I have saved a ton o' buck$ by going the SAWStudio route. I've tried Pro Tools, and, compared to SAWStudio, it's anything but Pro to me...except the outrageous price tag. :) Bottom line...it's your call (and your wallet)...I've made mine. Obviously, you have my vote ===> "Other" ===> SAWStudio. Best regards, Mike E. Dee
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/7/2005 8:39:17 PM "It is subjective at best." I agree with that statement. The term "DAW" means a lot of different things to different people. I see the argument a lot in these forums that since Vegas doesn't have midi tracks it isn't a "DAW". That kind of makes me laugh at that reasoning since the word DAW means digital AUDIO workstation. So that reasoning to me is strange, since midi is not audio, but too each their own. Aside from the DAW terminology argument, I think Acid needs to be a fully functioning "Multitracking" tool. I will have to make an analogy of my thinking here. When multitracking capability first came affordable to the average musician, there where first simple 8 track cassette recorders, which gave a musician the ability to arrange a song of 8 tracks and bounce tracks down as they ran out of tracks. Those 8 track cassette recorders let you record up to one stereo track at a time, while playing back the previous tracks. If you wanted "professional" multitracking capability, then you went to a recording studio which had expensive multitrack tape machines capable of recording and playing back as many tracks as the machine would allow. Following the 8 track cassette recorders, we enter the digital age, where we see devices like the Rolland VS-880. Again, the ability to playback multiple tracks, but only able to record a couple tracks at a time. So to me Acid's current multitracking functionality is analogist to the 8 track cassette/VS-880 home multitrack recorder. The name is however Acid "Pro". Thus, if the app is going to have multitracking feature capabilities, it should follow the abilities that a "professional' multitracking tape machine has, as someone working in a professional recording studio is familiar with and not the consumer multitrack models, and therefore Acid would earn the name it's wearing. The software should not be the limiting factor as to the amount of tracks I can simultaneously record, it should be the hardware/soundcard on my PC and the power limitations of the PC. Acid MUSIC, could follow the current 1 track, no input monitoring ability, but Acid Pro should follow a professional multitrack tape machines capability if it's going to have any multitracking feature capability. It should be an all or nothing compromise, not a limited functionality as it is. The reason I find this functionality not being implemented rediculous, is that Acid 5 basically, has the same multitracking capabilities as Acid 1.0. At the time of Acid 1.0 I could understand limiting the app to only recording 1 track at a time because I could see the PC power being a major limiting factor of playing back time stretched audio loops as well as recording multiple tracks. I was running Vegas Pro v1.0 on a 200Mhz PII, with the ability to record as many tracks as the system would handle. Today we're looking at 3Ghz processor speeds, with faster hard drives, a couple gig of Ram capabilities, yet we're still limited by the functionality of the software. So I have to keep asking myself, "Why?".
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/8/2005 5:57:26 AM I second what RednRoll said... But SawStudio... Its interface looks like it's been designed by a kid who played around with his fonts. And as far as I remember, when I tested it, it was a bugged GUI. Yet, the recording seemed stable, quite full multitrack functionality, but it's not a pleasure to work with it at all imho.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:2/8/2005 7:22:41 AM I would LOVE to hear Sony’s positioning of ACID, Vegas, and Sound Forge in the industry. This would clear up a LOT of confusion. Obviously NONE of us can figure out what’s going on because there isn’t a complete music composition tool between them. Add them all together and you still don’t have a multi-tracking MIDI Sequencer with punch-in/out, trimming loops, etc. that all the competition has. What is the strategy here? What is the recommendation to users? Vegas for Video is clearly a video non-linear editor that blows away its competition. No one has the ease of use, 3D compositing, real-time preview, multi-media capabilities, and audio support in the video domain. So that’s well understood. Vegas for Audio is ??? Does it compete with ProTools, SONAR, Logic, Cubase? They all have MIDI sequencer support, and ReWire support, and virtual instrument support, and Vegas doesn’t. How can you compete as just an audio recorder with no way to plug in other apps for the functions you lack? Who does Sony think is the competition for Vegas Audio? ACID is a one-person composition tool. You can only record one input at a time (thus one-person oriented) but it does allow a solo musician to record both audio and MIDI (although in a very primitive way). Now that it has ReWire device support I can see ACID being very useful as a plug-in for a multi-track application (which is probably what prompted this thread). So I’m actually OK with positioning ACID. ACID can be a standalone composition tool or the ultimate plug-in loop editor to a larger multi-track application. Sound Forge is a Swiss army knife for editing waves with sample accuracy and for mastering mix downs. It plugs in well with the other two applications so I have no problem positioning it. I can’t imagine why people on the Sound Forge forum want multi-track capabilities. Further proof that Vegas has an identity crisis since Vegas is the only multi-track audio recorder of the suite. It seems to me then that Vegas Audio is the odd ball application looking for an identity. If Vegas had MIDI Sequencer support (with DXi or VSTi) and ReWire host support to add in ACID, everything would fall in place for me. Perhaps Sony needs to pull Vegas Video and Vegas Audio apart again and add functionality for their respective audiences if the video crowd doesn’t want MIDI. (although there is the occasional post on the video forum about someone dropping a MIDI file on Vegas for background music and being astonished it doesn’t work) That’s why when someone wants multi-track support or MIDI Sequencer support for ACID, I recommend that they pick up a copy of Tracktion and ReWrire ACID into it and be happy. It sure would be nice to tell them to pick up a copy of Vegas but that won’t work! As Rednroll suggests, if you’d just add multi-track to ACID that would be a solution too. I would rather see better MIDI support added because I’m a solo musician and don’t need multi-track recording. But enough of my opinion. What is Sony’s positioning of their suite? ~jr
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: merlyn60 Date:2/8/2005 7:44:22 AM JohnnyRoy: Points well made. I would like to hear Sony's official position on their suites as well. The key for Sony IMVHO has got to be Vegas. Sound Forge is simply the best editor out there....hands down. Acid is arguably the best loop sequencer out there (some may put Live ahead of it). As you pointed out, the missing link is Vegas. It's the closest to being a complete DAW (again subjective) than the other two. All it needs is the proper midi implementation, vst compatibility, and rewire and it immediately jumps up to the front of the DAW class. When you mix in the video component, Vegas would truely be in a class by itself. All the other DAW are attempting to intergrate video in their apps. Vegas is already on par, if not ahead of the industry's leading video editing apps out there. It's a no brainer and Sony has got to know this.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/8/2005 7:58:14 AM JR, your view is right on point with mine. One of the reasons though I need multitracking support with Acid is because in the most part I am a solo musician, where I have to use an outside midi sequencer with Acid. On the most part, I always have a lot of midi tracks with just a few loops in Acid. So there comes the time to lay my midi tracks off as audio into Acid and here I am making 16 individual passes to do that task, where it could be cut down to two with my setup. Do the math, if a song is 5 minutes long, I save 5minsx14additional passes to lay it off to Acid. That's 70 minutes plus the additional work to solo and mute tracks in my sequencer, putting me close to an additional 1 1/2 hours of wasted workflow time. I prey for the day when Sony has a professional midi sequencing tool and Acid developes into a full feateared multitracker. Until then it's like you pointed out where their apps basically get you 90% there and then there's a big hole in your workflow, where you're looking for other solutions to fill it. I think we're all asking for the same thing from the Sony folks, when I say hold off on developing some new inovative feature that no one else offers and just fill in the holes with the apps that you have and you'll truly have the best of everyone out there.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: MikeDee Date:2/8/2005 2:26:18 PM Fadengo - Have you taken a test drive of the demo? It is nothing like the old SAW that was out years ago. A lot of people have dismissed "SAW" without having taken a look at the new SAWStudio. The engine has been completely redesigned...basically, it's a complete rewrite from the ground up. The "guts" o' the code is written in handcoded assembly language and, in most cases, deals directly with the audio hardware, effectively bypassing the kludginess of Windows. In fact, there are no Registry hooks whatsoever...no need for COM or the .NET Framework. You get clean, efficient, super-fast code. Yeah, it almost looks like a toy to a degree...and that's the beauty of it. It's fun to look at as well as use. And once you get past the not-so-steep learning curve, you find that it's easier, more intuitive than all the other apps. Any bugs you might've found in the app's GUI are long gone by now because the app is continually updated (virtually on a daily basis)...which brings me to my next point....... As far as support goes: I know of NO professional audio (DAW or looping) app whose service and support can come close to that of SAWStudio. When was the last time you spoke with or emailed the author/owner of your DAW software? I can do that just about every day [though I try not to be a pest ;) ]. Also, there is no corporate management and politics to govern and determine the direction and destiny of the software. [No, Peter, I'm not offending Sony here...let's just call it an observation and leave it at that. :-D ] If what I have said sounds too good to be true, then why not take a quick trip to the SAWStudio Users' Group (http://www.sawstudiouser.net/forums/index.php?)? Feel free to take a look at all the postings by Bob L -- that's Bob Lentini himself, the owner/author/developer/engineer (both audio and software). He (as well as the app) is the real deal. In fact, a couple o' weeks ago, his home was nearly destroyed by fire...most of his computers and studio equipment destroyed. He managed to save one or two machines and some external hard drives. In such a short time, he has gotten himself back up and running, his source code intact. He's still developing and supporting us as if nothing has happened. Nothing short of amazing to me! :) I don't expect you or anyone else reading this to sell your DAWs and buy into SAWStudio just like that, Fadengo. I am merely explaining my reasons for having gone with SAWStudio, just as others have explained their reasons for having gone with Vegas or Sonar, etc. However, I truly believe that whoever takes a really good look at SAWStudio and obtains some good answers to his/her questions on the users' group might actually go right ahead and make the upward crossgrade. Don't let the fun interface fool ya...there's a lot o' serious and intricate stuff goin' on under the hood. It's the inner beauty that counts. The end result: After using SAWStudio, you realize that your recordings, which really count, are much better sounding...more natural...not "digital" sounding, even at 16-bit, 44.1k. Best personal regards, Mike E. Dee
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/8/2005 5:21:43 PM >The end result: After using SAWStudio, you realize that your recordings [...] >are much better sounding...more natural...not "digital" sounding Hey that's an insteresting argument. And the history about the author is quite amazing. I've tryied the demo before writting the post. I saw how dependant the software was when I came to uninstalling it... Just delete the folder it says in the help topic ^^. But the fact is that I really need a "studio standard" software to learn, so I'll be more attracted to Pro Tools LE 6.7. Especially for recording. I'd love to see what the Mediasoftware department's chief has to respond to JohnnyRoy's point of view that we all share here. We're not just "special cases" customers, we're more the customers that take the time to think about an application we don't sell. We just use it. If these guys (and I'm not talking about developpers, but about their boss) don't listen to all these remarks, they will never understand what they're working on.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: mghtx Date:2/8/2005 6:39:43 PM My vote was "Other" because I use SAWStudio. I've tried (and still have) Sonar 1 and Cubase SX 1. Now I only use Acid and SAW. I make backing tracks in Acid and then do audio in SAW.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: SHTUNOT Date:2/10/2005 11:04:16 AM Mike...I thought sawstudio site was freking coolbut the price of the FULL version...$2500???? Most Vegas/acid/etc...users cry about the $149 upgrade price!!! Looked cool though. Ed.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: MikeDee Date:2/10/2005 11:49:03 AM Ed - Ordinarily I'd simply say, "You get what you pay for." However, I, myself, am using SAWStudioLite...I've bumped into the 36 stereo track limit of Lite only once, and I'm using only 8 of the 12 stereo outputs; thus, I really don't need to have 72 stereo tracks, and I don't need 24 stereo outputs. SAWStudioBasic is nothing to sneeze at...had it been available at the time of my purchase, I probably would have gone with it instead of the Lite version. Compare the specs of each...then compare to Vegas, Sonar, etc. Even if you find that one or more of the other apps offer, say, more tracks than SAWStudioBasic, please don't forget that, at the end of the day, it's the sound quality that matters...the same high-end audio engine ("guts") is implemented in all three SAWStudio products. Best regards, Mike E. Dee
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: MikeDee Date:2/10/2005 9:16:26 PM I just received some rather good news on the SAWStudio Users' Group from Robert Randolph @ SigmaDelta Audio Labs (http://www.audio-labs.net): ============================================================== Mike, he can always contact a VIP affiliate for a discount (and I also will gladly help out in ANY other way I can, as im sure the others will). You should also mention the good faith agreement. For 200$ down and 100$ amonth it's hard to beat! A fantastic deal for what you're getting, and considering the money saw can make you... it's pocket change ============================================================== Hmmm...looks like I might make the jump to the full version after all.... Cheers 2 all! :) Mike E. Dee
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Rednroll Date:2/11/2005 6:41:40 AM "You should also mention the good faith agreement. For 200$ down and 100$ amonth it's hard to beat!" Yeah?, it's hard to beat. About as hard as pulling out my credit card and doing the same thing. I've tried out Saw about 5 years ago, and couldn't get my head around it, at least compared to Vegas. So if it's like you say, "It is nothing like the old SAW that was out years ago." Then I have to ask why not? You think I want to purchase my software, then one day they decide, "hey this sh*ts not working, let's start over from the ground up and do it right this time." Hmmm? Then don't you think they should have started over with a new refreshed name because it's really not the same product now is it? So with a track record like that and you're thinking about jumping ship, just watch out that the ship doesn't jump from you in a few years, when they decide they have to try something else because this one's just noy pulling in the sales they wanted.
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: MikeDee Date:2/11/2005 10:09:04 PM Hi, Red - Actually, the "old SAW" worked quite well at the time. As time went on and the technology got more powerful and stable, Bob decided to redesign the engine to do so much more than what could be done on the then-current technology. Also, it was very inexpensive to upgrade from SAWPro to SAWStudio. I realize that SAW's not for everybody, just as Vegas, Sonar, and Pro Tools aren't...just as ACID and Live aren't. You gotta go with your gut; you gotta go with what's right for you. This applies to hardware as well. I remember buying the Ensoniq ASR-10...I had it maxed out at 16 MB of sampling memory, and I had the SCSI option installed. I was promised that, hey, this is a software-based instrument...I wouldn't have to upgrade the hardware, since only the software needed to be updated. Sounded good...I went with it. What happened? We all know...as new hardware was deployed -- with its own software platform -- all further maintenance was directed toward this new software...while the hardware manufacturer and software development team was hard at work on the next new toy soon to hit the market, thus, sealing the fate of this soon-to-be-obsolete hardware AND software. Within a relatively short time, the ASR-10 is considered dead and buried (as far as the hardware manufacturer and software development team is concerned). Bottom line: Along our musical journey, we'll consider different pieces of software or hardware. We'll either make the jump (whichever way...our prerogative)...or we can just sit back and wait, sorta like Ralph Kramden, waiting for 3-D television (LOL...again, our prerogative). Ain't freedom o' choice wonderful? :) Best personal regards, Mike E. Dee
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: JohnnyRoy Date:2/12/2005 5:04:07 AM > I remember buying the Ensoniq ASR-10 Don’t feel bad. I still own my original Ensoniq EPS with the 4MB expander module. I still use it to play live today. I had delusions that some day I could connect it to my PC and edit wave data and have all the capabilities of the Farlight III. ;-) Eventually it did get an OS upgrade that allowed it to transfer wave data with WaveLab but the promise of software upgrades and support fell far short of my expectations. I would still be very hard pressed to lay out $2500 for softwave (i.e., Saw). You could buy hardware for that price. (Digidesign/ProTools) ~jr
Subject:RE: Two Weeks after : Results ! Reply by: Zacchino Date:2/13/2005 7:43:46 AM About the EPS 16 (or 16+), have you heard about chickensys ? A good program to transfer your files from floppy or zip. I owned an ASR-10, worked great with Win98, but had floppy issues with XP, that had been fixed...

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