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Subject:beatmapping
Posted by: bolt
Date:12/14/2004 11:08:01 AM
I have an old song from a LP which I want to mix. Problem is that each bar is slightly different tempo and therefore my beat keeps going out. Is there a way in Acid where each 4 bars I can lock the loop and for the software to timestretch each individual segment. I'm sure when mixed you wouldn't really notice too much of a time stretch.... Thanks bolt |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:12/14/2004 11:11:00 AM
Does this KB article help any? Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/14/2004 11:31:39 AM
I can see what it is saying but i cannot see whether i am doing it correctly? Are there any screen shots at all? I'm getting confused as to where the tempo and where the hit marker are to go? |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/14/2004 11:36:37 AM
it is also now saying "tempo outside of the allowed range"?? What am i doing wrong? |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:12/14/2004 11:43:16 AM
The calculated tempo is either too fast (more than 300 BPM) or too slow (slower than 40 BPM). Where the cursor is shouldn't be too far from where the hit marker is before you adjust tempo. Otherwise you might get the error you're getting. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/14/2004 12:02:40 PM
ok lets start from the beginning: 1. what tempo should the project be at? (currently its at 120bpm 2. I've put the marker on the first beat and hit H 3. Do i now go to the end of the first loop? i.e. the completion of the first beat? Do i leave the cursor here and go back to the first Hit marker, right click and choose adjust tempo? 4. Do i now hit T aswell and insert a tempo marker where my cursor still is? If so, what tempo do i choose? The one to match the project? If i can the above sorted out then i'll be able to go on and complete the track. Appreciate your help. bolt |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:12/14/2004 1:04:29 PM
Hi bolt, 1. Try to match the imported file's original tempo as closely as possible. If it's roughly 120 BPM, leave it at that. 2. That's the correct first step. 3. Place the cursor on the ACID timeline's measure 2, beat 1. (It's denoted by "2.1" or "2.1.000" on the timeline.) Then go back to the first hit marker and use the "Adjust tempo..." command. 4. Yes, but leave the tempo marker at the tempo ACID specifies after using the "Adjust tempo" command. You would then continue on by finding the 2nd measure of your file, put a hit marker there, then move the cursor to the ACID timeline's measure 3, beat 1. Use the "Adjust tempo..." command once again for the 2nd hit marker. Put a tempo marker, and so on and so forth. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/14/2004 1:15:20 PM
not happening. maybe i#m being thibk but the track does not some out in any sort of time stretched form?...... frustrating!! is there any other way of doing this? |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/15/2004 4:52:40 AM
This is how I would recommend fixing your issue. Import your file into ACID as a one shot. Set the project tempo to something close to the song’s tempo. Line the first downbeat of the song up with a first beat of the nearest bar. Set snapping to measures, and drop a Tempo Marker at the start of this first bar. Now press the Page Down key to move the cursor a further bar along and drop another tempo marker. Continue doing this until you reach the end of the song. (You can drop tempo markers less often (only every few bars) if you want). Then, turn snapping off, go back to the start of the song and drop a Hit marker between your first two tempo markers. Hold down the Alt key and drag the Hit marker backwards or forwards until you line up the second downbeat of your song with the second Tempo Marker. Then move the Hit Marker along to the next bar, and continue lining up each bar until you reach the end of the song. Once you have reached the end, any loops you import will follow the fluctuations of tempo in your original song. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:12/15/2004 11:05:49 AM
I failed to mention that using the method described before does not actually stretch the file but stretches the ACID project itself (i.e., any related stretchable tracks in the project) instead. You would most likely use this method if you wanted to match the rest of your project with the one file. Weevil's method is also similar (which you can try as well). Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/15/2004 8:51:14 PM
I failed to mention that using the method described before does not actually stretch the file but stretches the ACID project itself (i.e., any related stretchable tracks in the project) instead. You would most likely use this method if you wanted to match the rest of your project with the one file. ...A few other points about this stuff well. The KB article is totally incorrect in saying “Render the song out to a new file, and you have an even-tempo'ed song”. If you follow the KB instructions to the letter and render the song there will be no change to the new file’s tempo whatsoever. Also, (unless you are trying to fix sloppy playing) it is almost always preferable to retain the original vibe and nuance of the recorded material rather than ‘construct’ perfect timing. Generally speaking you want to force the machines to follow the humans not force the humans to follow the machines. Otherwise you can end up with mathematically correct but mechanical and soulless music. ...I do wish Sony would let users Alt drag tempo markers in the same way you can Alt drag hit markers. It is such a ridiculously simple answer to the whole beat matching problem. If you see a downbeat not in line with the grid, you drop a Tempo Marker on it and Alt drag (the marker and) the beat to the right spot. Could not have a more straightforward and intuitive solution to a problem that has been around forever. I do not understand why they don’t do this. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/16/2004 6:04:42 PM
Hey man!! Tried what you said and it works!!! Nice one!! It was much easier to understand this way and i've got the hang of it now. Sometimes instructions can be simplified like you said and it all makes senes now. I can see what you mean by not being able to use the tempo key and holding down ALT to do the same thing.. Thanks for you help. Appreciate it, |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/16/2004 7:48:24 PM
Glad to be of help. I have to beatmap songs nearly every day, so I think I’ve tried every system there is. For me this one seems to be the most straightforward. I can see what you mean by not being able to use the tempo key and holding down ALT to do the same thing.. Man...I so wish someone at Sony would listen to me about this. :-( |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/17/2004 11:57:35 AM
why haven't sony built this method into the beatmapper section anyway??? I mean it asks you to analyse each segment yet the downbeat moves with every section you move??!! If it was built into the beatmpper then everytime you threw a track into that it would allow you to get the tracl spot on - much more faster in my opinion?! Bolt |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:12/17/2004 6:08:57 PM
The KB article is totally incorrect in saying “Render the song out to a new file, and you have an even-tempo'ed song”. If you follow the KB instructions to the letter and render the song there will be no change to the new file’s tempo whatsoever. Also, (unless you are trying to fix sloppy playing) it is almost always preferable to retain the original vibe and nuance of the recorded material rather than ‘construct’ perfect timing. Generally speaking you want to force the machines to follow the humans not force the humans to follow the machines. This is what you're actually doing per the KB and Weevil's tip; you're not "fixing" the file at all. Rather, the rest of your project is following the imperfect file. The KB is also assuming this very thing (though it's not immediately clear). I'm not sure how using ALT plus dragging the tempo marker would work. Time and tempo are related; you're changing the time when you move the tempo marker past a certain point in your project. For example, say a project is set at 120 BPM. Measure 2, beat 1 begins at exactly 2 seconds. If the project BPM was changed to 102 BPM, measure 2, beat would begin exactly at 2.353 seconds. Let's say we change the tempo to 102 BPM from 120 BPM at precisely measure 1, beat 4 (which is 1 1/2 seconds into the project). Measure 2, beat 1 would then begin at 2.088 seconds. Because the tempo was changed at a specific point, so must the time be changed accordingly. (For those wondering in their heads, Why does measure 2, beat 1 begin at 2.088 in this case? It's because in a tempo of 102 BPM, one beat encompasses .588 seconds. And where we changed the tempo at 1.5 seconds was one beat away from measure 2—a span of .588 seconds.) So if you have a file that has a specific downbeat not in line with the grid and try to move the tempo marker to that spot, it changes the whole ballgame before or after, potentially throwing the rest of the project off. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/17/2004 8:05:54 PM
I'm not sure how using ALT plus dragging the tempo marker would work. Time and tempo are related; you're changing the time when you move the tempo marker past a certain point in your project. Yep that’s actually why it would work. It would allow you to directly play with the time/tempo relationship. When you ALT drag a Hit Marker it anchors the marker to its spot in time (it sticks to the same spot on a one shot) but adjusts the tempo of the project. If you were allowed to do this with Tempo Markers you could very quickly and simply beatmap your whole project. So if you have a file that has a specific downbeat not in line with the grid and try to move the tempo marker to that spot, it changes the whole ballgame before or after, potentially throwing the rest of the project off. This is true if you don’t have any other Tempo Markers in the project...then the whole project’s tempo would change. But once you start inserting Tempo Markers you can start ‘stretching’ some parts of the project while anchoring others in their place (exactly the whole point of the exercise). It is looooads more complicated to explain the theory than it is to do it. I reckon just try applying the ‘Weevil method’ to a few bars of a one shot and you will see exactly what I am on about. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/17/2004 8:14:59 PM
If it was built into the beatmpper then everytime you threw a track into that it would allow you to get the tracl spot on - much more faster in my opinion?! Yep your right. I’ve been campaigning for Alt-drag Tempo Markers because it would be very, very simple for Sony to implement (did someone say 5.0b!!!!! :-) ). But it would certainly make sense for them to build it into the Beatmapper at some point as well. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/18/2004 5:02:39 AM
thanks for this guys. i would certainly recommend this to be built into the next update.... just on your method again - once i lay down the tempo markers every 4 bars and then drag the hit marker - i get a certain way into the track and the tempo goes from say 95BPM to somewhere around 190BPM and then it starts becoming difficult to lay any more hit markers?? As i strectch certain parts of the song it is moving the rest way out of sync.. i'm sure its user error on my part but again "manual" interference leads to frustrated time spent! I do hear the argument of "artificial" sound beatmapping and what the original music was designed for but me i would like to have the ability of playing with this - the rest is down to whether the mix has come out any good or not? Any further tips most welcome. thx everyone |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/18/2004 5:38:42 AM
A couple of things maybe: It is really important that you move from left to right through your song. If you start going back then (whatever method you use) all the markers to the right of your edit will be moved out of time. It also sounds like you may need more Tempo Markers, perhaps you should start at the top and put a tempo marker every bar. ...Again the important thing to remember is that when you drag a Hit Marker everything to the right of the Tempo Marker before it remains anchored, but everything to the left of it moves. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/18/2004 6:04:47 AM
"Again the important thing to remember is that when you drag a Hit Marker everything to the right of the Tempo Marker before it remains anchored, but everything to the left of it moves." Lets say I have two tempo markers. I insert a hit marker exactly where my snare is and then hold down the ALT and drag it to the RIGHT tempo marker - is this correct? If so, then everything to the RIGHT of the tempo marker and indeed the song all move to the right. - is this correct? bolt |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/18/2004 9:20:52 PM
Lets say I have two tempo markers. I insert a hit marker exactly where my snare is and then hold down the ALT and drag it to the RIGHT tempo marker - is this correct? If so, then everything to the RIGHT of the tempo marker and indeed the song all move to the right. - is this correct? Everything to the right of the tempo marker will move forward or back with the Hit Marker as you move it, whereas everything to the left of the Tempo Marker will remain anchored. So it doesn’t matter so much where you place the hit marker within the bar. The object of the exercise is to line up the downbeats in the song with their corresponding position on ACIDs grid. So you go through the whole song until each downbeat of the song lines up with the start of each bar. Generally speaking your snare hits should be lining up with beats 2 and 4 not beat 1. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/19/2004 11:10:38 AM
ok... thats brill. thx. once the song is completed, do you just render out as normal into WAV orMP3? Am i also right in saying that it won't be the exact tempo throughout becasue each measure has a different tempo on the grid when lining up with the hit marker? |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/19/2004 10:08:57 PM
Yep, just render as usual and yep, nothing you do in the Beatmapping process will actually affect the sound or tempo of the original material. All it does is allow any loops you put into your ACID project to stay in sync. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:12/20/2004 12:11:15 PM
I must not be able to think outside the box. Hit markers can be locked to absolute time (hence why they're used to sync up with events such as in video), whereas other markers cannot. I've done a little digging and was able to find an official response from a couple years ago. Joel can explain it better than I can. Iacobus ------- RodelWorks - Original Music for the Unafraid Pre-order Instant ACID mD at ACIDplanet Guitars 4 Kids |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: bolt
Date:12/20/2004 2:56:35 PM
can't see why this cannot be included straight into the beatmapper function for V6 release? Theres been so much written about it already to justify a enhancement to the software don't you think....??? |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/21/2004 5:27:17 AM
I must not be able to think outside the box. Hit markers can be locked to absolute time (hence why they're used to sync up with events such as in video), whereas other markers cannot. Yep, I’m asking for a mode where Tempo Markers can temporarily be locked to absolute time. Just like the countless other examples in ACID and Vegas where you can manipulate an object in one way, but also have the option of (holding down a key and) manipulating it in another. It would achieve exactly the same outcome as the ‘Adjust Tempo to Match Cursor to Marker’ method. But it would be far, far less cumbersome. Using the KB method you need to put a Tempo Marker on the correct beat on the grid, then move to the correct downbeat of the audio file and place the cursor on it, then move back to the original tempo marker, right click on it and select from the correct menu option. Whereas with my proposed method all you need to do is put a Tempo Marker on the correct downbeat of the file and Alt drag it to correct beat one on the grid. To properly beatmap a typical song you have to repeat whatever process you use well over a hundred times...I regularly have to beatmap three or four songs a week. Currently it is a huge amount more work than it could be. Please don’t misinterpret my tone; I’m not trying to beat anyone over the head about this. It’s just an issue that has caused me a hell of a lot of grief for a long time. If there is a logical reason why what I’m suggesting is not possible I’m happy to hear about it. |
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Subject:RE: beatmapping
Reply by: Weevil
Date:12/21/2004 5:35:04 AM
can't see why this cannot be included straight into the beatmapper function for V6 release? Theres been so much written about it already to justify a enhancement to the software don't you think....??? Yeah, the reason I push the Alt drag thing is because it would be the absolute least amount of work on Sony’s part to do. The Beatmapper thing should happen at some point. |