Subject:need help for mastering

Posted by: dadek

Date:12/7/2004 1:21:50 PM

Last two months i´ve been occupied with rerecording my music tapes on CD-s. I´m using SOUND FORGE 7, and lot of plug ins. After tons of bad copies, I reach almost wanted level of quality.....but! My recordings sounds are too fat, too much bass on it. I dont use EQ plugs, just ULTRAMAXIMIZER +, X-NOISE on PINK NOISE PRESET, STEREO EXPANDER, and a little bit of ENHANCER (value +1 on SMOOTH/ENHANCE plug in). My old NAKAMICHI tape recorder have problem with power, so I must use DC Offset plug in to solve them. My fried CD-s are in the use on home equipment, in car, in portable player and they sound very similar, too bassy, without transparency, no vivid, like my wife said: "Dead meat!" I supposed that there are two different problems, but I don´t know how to solve them.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: PeterVred

Date:12/8/2004 10:21:52 AM

I haven't had any luck improving the sound of cassette tapes recorded into the computer either.
If the tapes you are copying into the computer are "Factory" pro recordings, they have probably been mastered to as close to perfection as they can get. I would think you could not improve on them much by using compression.

The big problem with tape is the noise, and you can EQ out some of the hiss , but as you know the high end goes with it. I have never been able to get noise reduction to work for me.

The tapes that were important to me, I copied to CD as is, just for posterity and figure they will never sound any better, but at least they are archived.

Sorry to not be any help.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/8/2004 1:25:50 PM

Thanks for replaying!
I will try further, because I´ve got plenty of tapes with lot of good music, and that are cd copies of my stollen cd-s.
Thanks anyway!

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/8/2004 1:47:56 PM

Thanks for replaying!
I will try further, because I´ve got plenty of tapes with lot of good music, and that are cd copies of my stollen cd-s.
Thanks anyway!

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: musiclab

Date:12/10/2004 1:59:44 PM

To reduce tape Hiss, I have successfully use Noise Reduction 2.0 in Mode 3. Do not reduce too much at the time. 15 db max per pass.
Once noise has been reduced to a satisfactory level, you can work to resolve the overall sound. You rarely need compression for these as tape program has has already been compressed.
Good luck

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/11/2004 1:55:22 PM

Done, almost with succes. Bass freq reduced on satisfactioned level, but high freq distorted. I think, that I need a litter bit more time in practisizing using EQ values. Practise and learning.......
Thanks for the tip.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: mpd

Date:12/11/2004 3:27:19 PM

I'm not sure what you are doing now, but keep in mind that some of the processing you initially described will counteract each other.

If you use noise reduction to reduce hiss, and then use enhance, you will reintroduce some of the hiss since enhance is basically a gentle high end emphasis.

Compression can help you increase the overall loudness, but since you are decreasing the dynamic range, you are also decreasing the signal to noise ratio.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/11/2004 6:14:51 PM

I´m affraid that I´ve been moving in a circle. Is there any unified recipe for mastering step by step. Can anybody improve or modify mine:
1. Recording with input signal on -4 peak
2. Using ULTRAMAXIMIZER on 16bit highest resolution cut on -2 peak
3. EQ -4 db low pass
4. EQ +2 db high
5. Noise reduction preset WHITE NOISE
6. EQ +2 DB high pass
7. Volume up to -0.3 db

Finally, sound picture is width fast enough, but on sax solo or high vocal tones light distorted. What I´m doing wrong?

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: MJhig

Date:12/11/2004 6:34:30 PM

Is there any unified recipe for mastering step by step

Not even close!

That question is akin to "How do I please EVERY woman in the world?" and even that question would be easier to answer.

You need to research and practice...

I can say that your steps you posted would not at all be in any of my procedures at all.

Start here;

The Project studio handbook

Bob Katz

If it were as simple as changing a tire you'd already be awesome.

Since so much depends on the source and how to deal with it, there IS no answer. The source (woman) is always different.

The main thing in what you are doing... recording already mastered tapes... is to get the absolute best A/D conversion possible then use Noise Reduction to reduce the hiss which has alread been described then STOP THERE!

MJ

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/11/2004 7:45:55 PM

Obviously, I wasn´t precise in my question. Sorry for that.
As a former musician, with 20 years experience, I´ve got something behind. A few little things are known for me, including couple of womens too.
Anyway, my question was in generally way. When and what to do, which step first and which after that. Not including values, because, I´m agree with you, it depends from source. My intention is not remastering tapes with cd copies, than, having good as possible CD archive of those tapes.
Thanks for your attention, perhaps you will clear my view.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: mpd

Date:12/12/2004 6:50:26 AM

I would use the following order:

1. Record
2. Noise reduction
3. EQ
4. Ultramaximizer

I'm not sure if your volume adjustment is needed. It will probably just cause too much compression in the ultramaximizer stage. You may not need or want the Ultramaximizer, either, since your tape probably already has compression applied to it. If the gain is too low, just add some.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/12/2004 8:04:51 AM

I'ld like to help you out here, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to achieve. In one statement, you're saying you wish to transfer your old tapes to CD, then in another statement you're asking about mastering. These are really 2 seperate processes. If you need to get your stuff on the PC with good sound results where you will later transfer it to CD, then we need to focus in on doing that process, to get the best results. If you want to make your music sound better through mastering techniques then we need to focus in on that. If your intention is to transfer from tape, to the PC, master, then goto CD....then we need to combine all those processes, but before we do that we need to know what the state of the audio is in as it sounds on tape. Things like how high is the noise floor compared to the music, and has it previously gone through any mastering....what kind of tape could be helpful, since some have better quality than others.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/12/2004 9:52:22 AM

Sorry for unclarity, because I´ve been on work during last post, it was a little bit messy, normally for mental hospital, real one, and my shift past for 2and half hours. Jack Nicholson survey.
Anyway, here they are, my doubts:
1. Tapes are 75 % MAXELL XLII S, and 25% SONY METAL XR
2. Recordings are from originally CD-s to a brand new tapes
3. equipment for recording NAKAMICHI DRAGON and SONY 929 tape recorders and DENON cd player
4. That was at first my backup archive of my own CD collection, but in a meantime they were stollen
5. My wish is put again those recordings on CD-s with less losses as possible.
6. Almost 3/4 collection is GRP production, and mastering from my ear and hand will be blasfemy
7. Major problem for me is applying noise reduction without sound losses, because they are too bassy, sounding like bubbles in a gym, without transparency like i like.
8. step by step recipe in general, needed.

I hope that was a little bit precise, and now I´m running home to wait any progres at this post from sound gurus which I respect.
Thanks.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/12/2004 6:05:23 PM

Sorry just a little confusion now.

"3. equipment for recording NAKAMICHI DRAGON and SONY 929 tape recorders and DENON cd player"

I'm not familiar with these devices, but are these the decks you recorded the cassettes on?

A summary of what you listed gives me this. You have music on cassettes, that where originally recorded there from your CD collection, your CD collection was stolen, and now you would like to put those cassette backups back onto CDr's to get them as close as possilbe sounding like the original CD's. Am I correct in all this?

Next questions are, do you have Sound Forge, and which version and do you have a sound card on a PC to record thru? Which sound Card? Also do you have a CD burner on your PC or just use the external Denon CD recorder?

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/13/2004 6:07:37 AM

-Ad 3. are decks which I use to record my tapes on.
-Yes, your summary of my wishes are 100 % correct.
-I´m using Sound Forge 7
- sound card on my PC is on ASUS A7NX DELUXE motherboard build in
-I´ve got LG CD burner in PC.
Thanks for your goodwill, waiting for reply.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:12/14/2004 7:22:26 PM

Step1: Record Into Sound Forge
Record the cassettes entire 1 side into Sound Forge by connecting the outputs of the cassette deck into your sound cards Line IN inputs. Record in stereo, and try to achieve a peak level of -6dBFS to -3dBFS on the Sound Forge peak meters....if the "clip" indicator lights anytime durning the transfer, turn the input level of your sound card down and start over.

Step2: Noise Reduction

First off, you need to work on reducing the noise floor due to the tape hiss that the cassette adds.

If I where you, I would look into purchasing the Sony Noise reduction plugin. I'm not sure if this might make too much sense for what you want to do, only because of the price. The functionality is perfect for this though.
Check it out here: http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/Products/ShowProduct.asp?PID=14

The basics on how it works, is that you select a section of the cassette hiss where there is no audio present and tell the plugin to capture a noise print. Then with this noise print captured you select the entire file and use the plugin to reduce the tape hiss. If you get the plugin, I can go into further details at that time. Basically, I'm pretty certain you can reduce the tape hiss with this plugin a good -30dB to -40dB, well within acceptable CD noise floor performance.

If the noise reduction plugin price is not feasable, then try the new "ExpressFX Vinyl Restoration" plugin included with Sound Forge 7. Yes, it's not intended for cassettes but is able to reduce noise, so worth a try to see if you get better results.

Step 3: Try adding EQ
When transferring to Cassette you lost some high frequency content of the music, usually starting around 8Khz and up. Try adding a high-frequency shelf EQ, with a cut-off frequency at 8Khz and boost it to hear if this helps. Pay attention to the tape hiss noise, because tape hiss noise is also within these frequencies, between 6Khz-9Khz. If you find the EQ boost adds too much noise floor back in, then move the high shelf cut-off frequency to 10Khz. Pay attention to the peak meters when boasting the EQ to make sure your peak level clip indicator never turns on. If it does, then reduce the volume of the file to allow yourself some extra headroom.

Step4: Normalize
Select the entire file and goto PROCESS>NORMALIZE and select the preset ".01% Peak Normalization" and hit OK.

Step5: Extract each song to a seperate file
Select each song, leave 1/2 Second of header and tail for each song. In otherwords select blank space on the top and tail of each song where there is no music present. Drag this outside of the current Wave editor window. This will create a copy of what you have selected and open up a new wave editor window for each individual song. Do this for each song.

Step6: Add Fade IN and Fade out for the blank spaces you left at the top/tail of each individual song.
Goto the top of the file and select the 1/2 second of blank space you left prior to the songs start. Goto PROCESS>FADE>GRAPHIC. Select the "-20 dB exponential fade in" Preset and hit OK. Goto the tail of the file and select the 1/2 second of blank space you left at the end. Goto PROCESS>FADE>GRAPHIC and select the "-20 dB exponential fade out" preset and hit OK.

What you did here was faded out the residue noise floor that may have been left over from the cassette and gradually faded it in from digital zero on the top and faded out to digital zero on the tail. You will need this when tranfering to CD to elliminate a noticeable noise floor jump from the digital zero on the CD, to whatever noise was left over that you weren't able to remove.

Step 7: Burn each track to CD
Put Song1's Window in view. Goto TOOLS>BURN TRACK-AT-ONCE AUDIO CD, hit OK and burn track 1 to CD. Select Song2, and do the same until all tracks are placed back in order as they whjere on the cassette.

Step 8: Close the disk
Goto TOOLS>BURN TRACK-AT-ONCE AUDIO and select "Close Disk" in the action window, to close the disk, so that it can be played in any CD player able to read a CDR. No further burning to the CD will be allowed after this process.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: mpd

Date:12/15/2004 6:57:03 AM

Just a note on step one. Record a short sample first at the level and then listen to it for distortion. Not all inputs are linear over the entire range.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/15/2004 6:58:46 AM

Thanks Rednroll for precise describe.
That is nearby what I´m doing. Instead NOISE REDUCTION 2.0 plug in (which I have too ), I´m using WAVES X-NOISE. But I will try to record on your way.
In a meantime I founded, on previously posted message, information about RCG audio HIGH FREQ STIMULATOR. It´s quiet good on a couple recordings.
Obviously, I have to practise with Your recipe including my experiences.
Thanks again, and I will be free to ask you again if any problem exist in my future work.

Subject:RE: need help for mastering

Reply by: dadek

Date:12/15/2004 7:05:38 AM

Correct mpd!
After 100 practise records, my experience is the same.
Thanks!